We bought a KC reg Toy Poodle approx 6 years ago from a reputable KC Registered dealer in North Dorset. The puppy was absolutely beautiful. From an early age we noticed she did a hop skip and jump with her back left leg when we took her for walks, but no other problems until she turned 3. We asked our vet about this skipping and we were advised she probably had something stuck in her paw(she didn't). At 3 she became lame. She underwent operations on both back legs as our vet advised us that she had Luxating Patella in both legs. We were also concerned about her front legs as she seemed to have problems with those. The vet assured us that her front legs were fine. The operations for Luxating patellar were unsuccessful and during the next 2 years she sadly deteriorated. When we approached the breeder to inform her she was almost abusive and accused us of causing the injury to our dog. The Kennel club were not interested either. We thought that by telling the breeder it would help her make better decisions with her future breeding programme as the vet told us the condition was genetic, caused by poor breeding. At no stage were we looking for any sort of refund or financial compensation. This dog was part of our family, we loved her dearly. We sought a second opinion about her front legs as she clearly couldn't walk properly ( our original vet in Tuckton she was a "lazy dog"). The 2nd vet confirmed she had hyper extending joints in both her front wrists. They did X-rays and these showed she also had a deformed hip joint. She also developed problems in her ankle joints. We kept her alive whilst she was still happy and eating but had her put to sleep 3 weeks ago when she could no longer stand up and was clearly getting distressed. We are devastated as she was such a joy to be around. We thought by buying from a KC Approved Breeder we would get a healthy dog, how wrong we were.

Sadly in the UK there is no official screening scheme for Luxating patella's ( I don't understand why?) though there is an accepted grading system in the veterinary profession and many breeders of the smaller breeds, especially toys and terriers do have their dogs patellas checked.

As for Hips, very few breeders of small breeds have the dogs hip scored, as it isn't seen as an issue in small breeds, the effects of HD are generally not often seen due to the light weight (the dog copes), even though any breed or size can have Hip dysplasia and to my mind (owner of medium size hunting breed) all breeds at a minimum should be Hip scored and eye tested at least.

As for the wrist problems, unfortunately they could no be foreseen (after all your original Vet could not even find the problem) or seen at the time of sale (unless there were problems in the parents in this aspect).  Unlike anything else that is purchased, except maybe plants, when you buy a puppy your not buying the finished article, and so much can happen in development.

I was rather worried by your term > a reputable KC Registered dealer, no dealer (someone who resells puppies) would be considered reputable as a puppy should always be bought from the breeder and usually the mother and other relatives available to be seen.

Was the breeder a member of the KC Assured breeder scheme?  did you receive a Purple Wallet with your dogs documents containing a Kennel club feedback form to report your experiences with the breeder (the only way the KC has to monitor actual puppy buyer experiences).

Sadly if the breeder did not do anything incorrectly, and was unable to foresee any issues, with a living being no long term guarantees can be  given for how it will develop or future health there are just too many variables.

To add to my previous post, I did buy the puppy directly from the breeder who was part of the KC Assured Breeder Scheme. I didn't buy from a dealer. Poppy's pedigree shows her name as WIGHTWONDER SCENE STEALER. And she was a lovely looking dog.

The dam was bred at a year old, had 4 litters. Is pra clear as is father. Sire has lots of progeny mainly with the breeders own girls and also some with no affixes as well. Haven't looked any further. Don't know anything about poodles but concerns me that the breeder wasn't interested at all.

We bought a KC reg Toy Poodle

The breed registration club is partly responsible for not adopting the relevant mandatory tests for the breed as they do in mainland europe, it is a KC owned pefix & KC is 'the guardian' of the breeds it prefixes.

.......and so it continues, as below......

https://vimeo.com/97599998
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I think you deserve a lot of applause for stating the lines identity.

It is not just the dogs which suffer it is well meaning owners such as you who have all the heartach & sadness for what should be happy fun loving years lost. Maybe facebook is a place to expose KC diseased dogs.
.

Certainly a year seems young to breed from even in toys and she ahs had her maximum allowed KC reg litters.

Lack of interest from breeder is poor which is why I asked if they were ABS breeders and whether the poster ahd submitted a feedback form.

While I was a member I was most disappointed to find only a 10% feedback rate from my time which only amounted to a couple of pups.

We bought a KC reg Toy Poodle

The breed registration club is partly responsible for not adopting the relevant mandatory tests for the breed as they do in mainland europe,

Sweden is an FCI country. You cannot register Toy or Dwarf Poodles (four sizes in FCI of course) unless parents are PRA clear by DNA. There are NO restrictions regarding patella status. Standard Poodles have to be hip scored. So the KC and FCI appear to have the same tests required -the only difference being that within the KC it only applies to ABS.

While I was a member I was most disappointed to find only a 10% feedback rate from my time which only amounted to a couple of pups.

You have to really stress it to people; the importance. Apparently I have over 50% feedback.

So did you complete a Feedback form for your experiences with the breeder, as that should have been in your puppy pack.

If not then ask the KC for one and do so now.  the KC can't know if their ABS members are abiding by the schema requirements regarding their dealings with puppy owners unless owners use the Feedback system.

On the other hand if a problem occurs that can't be foreseen or tested for in the parents, then the breeder cannot be held accountable for what nature does, unless they produce problem pups deliberately/knowingly.

As I said there is no official Patella testing scheme run by the BVA in UK, (the breeder may have had theirs tested) toy breeds are not routinely Hip Scored (though I personally think all breeds should be), and the issue with the wrists cannot be something foreseen.

Now if the breeder then carried out a 'repeat' breeding of the parents once problems were known to have occurred in pups then that would be different.  Such feedback as the poster said should help breeders adjust their breeding programs.

Poor breeder after sales is something else, and not something that is mandated except in the ABS scheme where reasonable contact is expected.

The same parents had a litter 20 months previously, (two pups in each litter), and the breeder repeated the breeding one assumes as results first time had been good.

The dam was mated to different studs for her last two litters, so one assumes they took the posters issues into account  or simply did not want to breed the same combination again.

The first litter the bitch was 16 months old and then the second litter she was 3 years old, so I would not say she was overbred.

As the breeder prcd-PRA tests he stock it is highly likely they may have done Patellas also (but not scheme to check with).

So the breeder may not have been negligent in any way.

> You have to really stress it to people; the importance. Apparently I have over 50% feedb

I did, pulled out the forms and really impressed it that feedback was vital both good as well as bad.

I expect they get more feedback fi people are not happy, so can only take it that my puppy owners were all happy with me, but it was disappointing.

I've not filled in the feedback form as I would have had to give a negative answer to one question and I'm really impressed with the breeder - not to mention delighted with my pup.

Found this old thread that has positive reports about the breeder: http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=119798
Also noticed she's been an AB since 2004, having had the home visit and passed it, and has all 3 accolades.

It is so easy to blame the breeder when something bad happens, but we are talking about living entities and we can only control/foresee so much.

Also as to the lack of interest, what was the breeder really supposed to do?  Alter their breeding plans is all, and they may well have done.

They sold an apparently healthy pup, one of only two in a litter (so not exactly raking it in, even though they seem to breed two or even three litters of 2 - 4 pups, that's really quite small numbers).

If a puppy buyer comes across belligerent and accusatory, and Vets always blame the breeder as if the breeder is God almighty and could foresee a problem.  No one deliberately breeds an unhealthy pup.

The most the breeder could have done her was take the pup back to Put To sleep and replace with another or refund purchase price if the faults became apparent soon after purchase.

A pup bought at weeks old can have it's development altered by so many things beyond the breeders control, from nutrition, exercise, or even accidents (small pups dropped or jumping off furniture or stairs).

Owners quite understandably do not see the bigger picture, and look for someone to blame, when in fact no-one is to blame, things unfortunately can just happen, an unfortunate combination of factors.

Seem to be a lot of positive comments from more than one owner regarding this kennel.

I have emailed the breeder through the Kennel club contact form, suggesting they come here and give their side of things to balance the post.

I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss. I also have a toy poodle and I know how they worm their way into your heart.
I'm not going to comment on the breeder as I'm not one, but I do think you want to look at your vet after what you have written.
Luxating patella is a known possible problem in small dogs so to say she had something stuck in her paw is worrying, especially since she went on to have both legs done.
The vet then said her front legs were fine and that she was just lazy, she obviously wasn't.
It's natural to want to blame someone, but she obviously had lots of skeletal problems. This wouldn't show as a pup and would develop as she got older. Skeletal problems can have environmental causes, as someone else has said, so perhaps this is what the breeder  was trying to say.
If I were you, I wouldn't use your vet again.

Just to say I'm sorry for what happened with your dog.   However, after 6 years, all you could have done was let the breeder know what happened so she could take note and perhaps adjust her breeding programme, which over that time, she probably has, many times.    I just have to ask how long a breeder to be expected to be responsible, when the reality is the dog had been with you for almost 6 years and during that time undoubtedly environment (food used, exercise given etc) must have played a huge part in what subsequently happened.   You do mentioned that 'from an early age you noticed the hopping etc'.   Then would have been the time to talk to the breeder I would have thought.   Yes, as a retired breeder, I would have wanted to hear if there were problems (perhaps so I could 'adjust' my breeding programme) - which almost would have been the case anyway as people tend to come back with problems, but not always with the good!!

As for your vet - yes there are aspects to this story that would bother me and for sure, many vets will make comments about 'breeders', even if they do tend to see the results of poor breeding.   I often wonder what Noel Fitz. thinks when he has yet another disaster to mend!!  But on camera at any rate, you don't hear him making any comment re blame (and he might well 'blame' some of those owners too!).

Buying livestock isn't like buying a car - and quite often the unexpected can, and does happen.   To quote Brainless -
"It is so easy to blame the breeder when something bad happens, but we are talking about living entities and we can only control/foresee so much."

I wasn't expecting to cause such a debate. I have had some very kind words from people for which I am very grateful. I am not blaming anyone for what happened, I wanted to share my experience as I think more should be done in the future regarding health screening. As far as my vet is concerned, I changed vets at the point our original vet told us she was a lazy dog and yes this was after he had operated on both of her front legs. He also probably should have suspected Luxating patella when we took her to see him as a puppy with our concerns, but he didn't. He has now retired. The breeder we bought from was probably very upset herself to get our feedback when she was first diagnosed with the condition in her back legs. She may well never had experienced any health issues before with her dogs but her response to us was very poor and I think we were also let down by our first vet. I really wanted to let readers know how problems like this sometimes happen. The second vet we went to was wonderful and said we had just been very unlucky.

Sorry I meant to say in my last post the vet operating on her back legs. Poppy's front legs were never operated on as the only option here was to remove the offending wrist joints and fuse the bones together, we were told this would have been a very challenging operation as she was a very small Toy and each leg may have required more than one operation with no guarantee of success. This would still have left her with her rear leg problems,along with the hip and ankle problem. In the future we may consider getting another Poodle, as we absolutely adore the breed but to be frank I couldn't face going through anything like this again and therefore we may well decide not to get one.

I think you have just been unlucky with the pup you got. She obviously had multiple skeletal problems that developed as she aged.
Don't let it put you off the breed.
Mine saw off a German Shepherd on the park the other night !!

I'm not getting the impression (perhaps I'm wrong!) that the owner wanted the breeder to give a refund, from reading the posts it seems they were expecting/hoping for some sympathy/compassion and instead were treated with belligerence and as if they had hurt the dog themselves.

I think it can be hard on everyone in such situations - even the absolute BEST breeder, if they breeder enough puppies, will have something like this happen. That's just nature. I currently have a well bred pup from health tested parents lying at my feet. If something emerged in the future which turned out to be genetic I would inform my breeder, but I wouldn't be angry at her, I am aware of the lengths she's been to to breed a healthy puppy, and if something is wrong it's down to poor luck. Not negligence. However if my vet was telling me over and over "its bad breeding" (let's face it - many vets are hugely negative about breeders and very black and white in their thinking) and the breeder themself responded with negativity and blame, I would probably feel hurt and angry too.

I imagine behind all this is a series of misunderstandings. Perhaps the owners concern felt very accusatory, and the breeders dismay the same, and the vet's irritation also. Communication between humans is so complicated, it's why a lot of us like dogs.

At no stage was I looking for any refund or compensation from the Breeder. I didn't accuse the breeder of doing anything wrong I only told her about my young dogs condition. I've stated the facts and nothing else.

> I imagine behind all this is a series of misunderstandings. Perhaps the owners concern felt very accusatory, and the breeders dismay the same, and the vet's irritation also. Communication between humans is so complicated, it's why a lot of us like dogs.

quite

Hi just to say it isn't helpful; to have duplicate posts, you already have two open posts so I will report this as a duplicate and suggest you repost your comment on one of the others.

Debate is good

It's helpful for all those searching about things as posts on this forum come up in google all the time.

Those answering bear that in mind and answer to the general issues raised in the topic as well as to you specifically.

I'm new to Champdogs so apologies if I've created duplicate posts! I've just seen a reply button, shame I didn't spot it earlier.

>I couldn't face going through anything like this again and therefore we may well decide not to get one.

The chances of lightening striking twice when buying from good breedrs is infinitesimal.

Certainly I would ask if the breeder has vet check for patellas, and can show you their vets report (or get one if nothing was given in writing at the time they were checked).

That's OK, you'll son get the hang of it here, and belated welcome to the forum

Thank you!

Thank you.

> Certainly a year seems young to breed from even in toys

ABSOLUTELY!  Blimey that is appalling.  I know the rule of thumb for toys is at the 2nd season, but if a year old was a second season I would 100% wait for the 3rd.  My only rule being nobody should wait until 3 years old for toys.  I strongly believe that toy bitches are not suitable for 1st time litters at that age.

The first litter was at 16 months, second at 3 years

I received the following and phone call from the breeder following my email via KC site.

"This is not for me Barbara.

I very much appreciate you alerting me to this negative feedback.

However, I do not and never have had a problem with this condition. I am a show/hobby breeder with 30 years experience and have consistently won with my sound home bred dogs for the last 30 years. I won 2 x 1sts, a 2nd a a 3rd with my Wightwonder dogs at Crufts this year and am retiring and moving to Spain, going out on a 'high'!

My dogs were Optigen tested 10+ years ago and all were A- normal. I had 23 tested at great expense.

I have never knowingly bred an unsound dog, have even striven to eliminate 'runny eyes' in the white and apricot lines.

My dogs have never had fits or heart problems, over 30 years I have never had a dog operated on for slipping stifles or ever owned one, certainly never bred on one.

I do understand that, as with the human species, the canine species can also exhibit 'congenital' problems which could never be attributed to my very careful breeding programme.

Serious problems can be caused in all small breeds by over exercising young puppies or by allowing them to jump from furniture or run up and down steps, etc.

I cannot be held accountable if new owners do not listen to or adhere to my advice..

I have read the sad story of 'Poppy', but of all the hundreds of sound, healthy puppies which I have bred and who have given so much pleasure over so many years, their owners coming back only to me for a replacement puppy when old age has eventually taken their beloved pet, this owner will have little effect on an excellent reputation of which I am proud.

I have read what they said but have no desire to extend the debate.

Hand on heart I have always done my best for my beloved breed and could not have done more. My conscious is clear and will always be so.

Sad that in these days so much damage and hurt can be done by one disgruntled voice!

I hope when they reflect their conscious is equally clear that in those early formative months nothing they did was at fault?!

I have no desire to get into debate over this issue, however, I have no objection to you sharing my response to you. I do not have the expertise to even join forum but you are most welcome to share my views.

Quite glad I will soon be completely out of the picture, enjoying the few I take to Spain as the pets they always wanted to be!

Kind regards,
Sylvia Riddett
Wightwonder Toy Poodles"