As title suggests. How long do you leave your girls in 1st stage labour before seeking vet advice?

1 of our girls is due her first litter next week. Her mother went for 30hours with no contractions and upon vet advice had emergency section. Pups were full of fluid and we got them out just in time.

How long do we give her daughter? This is a medium breed that usually whelp ok but worried about family history.

Last year my maiden bitch spent 36 hours in first stage, but then went on to deliver her five pups in an hour and a half.

I have had another maiden bitch with no obvious first stage just go straight to whelping and take 4 hours between pups, and everything in between.

As title suggests. How long do you leave your girls in 1st stage labour before seeking vet advice?

In ancient times, when I was young, there was a TV show in the USA (think little old square B+W TV sets, right?) called "The 64 Thousand Dollar Question".  This question of yours amounts to - in my experience in breeding - The 64-thousand-dollar Question!

I have experienced just about every variation on this theme over the years.  I've had vets tell me on examining the female "If you want to save the puppies, we have to act now and do a section!"  Yet I've been told time and again by vets to "just wait" (indirect inference that I am incapable of "patience"). I have been told by a vet I used to go to that (believe it or not!) "If it doesn't say this or that in the books, then this or that doesn't exist, and that ALL females will eventually go into second stage labor if you just wait long enough."  (I chose to terminate my relationship with this vet.)  I guess the worst I will ever experience is a couple of years ago, after waiting 26 hours for second stage labor to start, I asked the vet what to do, as it would soon be nighttime and many hours until I could have the puppies checked for heart rates if the labor did not commence.  He said "It's up to you!"  I said, "No, it's not up to ME, I need YOU!"  So "we" opted for a C-section and 5 of the 7 puppies died at birth.   Despite the efforts of the several vets on hand, they could not make the change to breathing on their own.  An autopsy was performed, and no cause was ever determined.  It was day 62 of the pregnancy, and the birth process had started on its own, so all was quite normal until this happened.  I no longer go to this vet either. 

After years of experience, my answer to your question is:  I DON'T KNOW! 

Please help, folks!  This happens all the time!

If you have a breed that's notorious for not whelping naturally, I'd not let her go on for much over 1 hour once she's having strong contractions and pushing hard.  Each delivery.   If she's going to need a C.Section it's way better to get her in before she becomes exhausted and yes, risking not only her life, but that of all her unborn puppies.   Some bitches take their time but I have a breed and line that went into secondary inertia (ouch mum, give up - you put them there, you get them OUT) so I tended to react sooner than perhaps others would.   This is where an experienced mentor is so invaluable.   On the other hand, with one of our bitches, she did the expected (ouch mum) so I took her in for a Section so not to mess around getting nowhere.   The vet didn't do the Section (long story - we sued) and when the locum vet went in the next morning, she found my bitch out back in their kennelling, shut down.   She rapidly did a section but all but 5 of the 9 puppies were too weak to survive and even then, bringing 5 home plus mum, a 5th died with milk coming down his nose from the (unnecessary) bottling the staff had been doing before we arrived to pick them all up.   We had 4 of the 9 left, and a mum we couldn't risk putting in whelp again - not that we bred one who had previously needed a C.Section in any case.   When spayed, one side of the uterus was 'shot' and she'd never have carried another litter.

So after that, I have always erred on the side of get a vet sooner rather than later.

I go with MamaBas on this one.  Mum had uterine inertia so the chance of daughter having the same is so high.  I once stupidly kept a bitch out of one of my girls who had inertia.  Very first litter was an emergency section exactly the same.

I would seriously be worried about your bitch.  And I would never let a vet talk me out of my decision.  I have too much experience with my breed to let a vet jeopardise one of my girls lives.

If you have a breed that's notorious for not whelping naturally, I'd not let her go on for much over 1 hour once she's having strong contractions and pushing hard.

I don't mean to argue for the sake of arguing, but I thought the original post was about first-stage inertia, where no contractions have started at all!

I'm reading 'Canine Reproduction' by Phyllis Holst at the moment (v good - very knowledgeable vet who specialises in reproduction) and she says that a call to the vet is indicated if more than 24 hrs has gone by since the temperature drop - 36 hours maximum - with no progression to 2nd stage labour.

I'm reading 'Canine Reproduction' by Phyllis Holst at the moment (v good - very knowledgeable vet who specialises in reproduction) and she says that a call to the vet is indicated if more than 24 hrs has.....

I know.  I've had that book for years and years.  All I can say is:  good luck making yourself wait that long! 
It's one of the tortures of breeding.  And then....then, when you see that first ripple....Was it?  No, no, of course not, just wishful thinking.  But I THINK I saw "something"...didn't I?  I don't know, I thought maybe...wait!  THERE!  That was a contraction for sure!  Yippee!  It was, it WAS!  And another!

That's the way you want it to go!  The problem is when "nothing" happens.

> I'd not let her go on for much over 1 hour once she's having strong contractions and pushing hard.

But we need to distinguish first stage and second stage, the above is second stage, and in my natural breed I have never had a bitch not produce a puppy within a couple minutes of strong second stage expelling contractions.

The difficulty is determining when first stage has gone to primary Inertia, or after one or more pups delivered secondary inertia where you fail to get the bitch "having strong contractions and pushing hard".

This is the stage at which I have lost pups yet for some bitches a longer gap between pups is perfectly OK, it's impossible to determine if placentas have detached in successive pups, and pups need to be born fast, ro that pups will be fine as with my most recent litter produced over 5 1/2 hours after what was thought to be the last..

> I'd not let her go on for much over 1 hour once she's having strong contractions and pushing hard.<br />

"But we need to distinguish first stage and second stage, the above is second stage, and in my natural breed I have never had a bitch not produce a puppy within a couple minutes of strong second stage expelling contractions."

Of course I'm not referring to the first stage of a whelping.   It's very obvious when the bitch has gone to secondary inertia.  And again if any of mine was struggling with any of the puppies, pushing hard, I didn't wait around.   If you haven't experienced this with any of your bitches you have been very lucky.   Moving back to the UK and living with people who bred Jackies, it was a real eye-opener for me..... most of her bitches popped all their puppies virtually within a couple of hours, if not sooner.   I remember likening it to shelling peas the first time she whelped one of her bitches.

And likewise, once mine were 2 days over their due date with nothing happening, I'd be having my vet take a look, at least.  

All this clearly depends on breed, and lines.

> Of course I'm not referring to the first stage of a whelping.

The original poster was asking about how long you would think first stage had gone too long.

I really would have kittens if a bitch couldn't get a puppy out after a half dozen pushes.

Where I have had worries is the time between pups.  That is so hard to guage.

> The original poster was asking about how long you would think first stage had gone too long.

Okay, so I went down another road (secondary not first stage inertia).    To go back to that then () how long I'd leave this without reacting would depend on how many days into the pregnancy I felt she was, together with whether she's in any kind of abnormal distress.

Had to laugh re having kittens if a bitch couldn't get a PUPPY out!!!     Again you are lucky if you've never experienced this.    There could be any reason why a bitch may not be able to deliver a puppy from 'too big' to 'awkwardly presented' etc.    And for me to let a bitch struggle with any delivery at any point during the whelping, to the point of becoming exhausted, simply wouldn't happen.    Again I had one I'd taken in for a C.Section who was left to struggle on by the vet, to the point she simply shut down.   And 4 of 9 puppies were too weak to survive after the emergency (really emergency!) C.Section was finally performed, and another died shortly after we bought them and mum home, with milk coming down his nose.   Staff had been bottling the puppies when all they needed was rest and warmth at that point.   And to my horror, mum was wandering around outside the room her puppies were in, with a door to the outside OPEN.  Again, we sued and won.

I have a breed that are generally good and easy whelpers.
My bitch (first litter) was in first stage for about 5/6 hours, no signs of contractions and all was 'OK' and I can't explain why but I felt something changed with her, she had periods of resting but she had a strange look about her. By this point it was 3am so I took her to my vets.
They advised that everything seemed fine and that I should give things longer. I drove home, was home for 10 minutes before I took her back and asked for a section.
2 puppies were trying to 'exit' at the same time, so they would never have been born.
Luckily all 9 survived. My bitch will be mated on her next season and I am dreading the birth to be honest! I really hope she manages herself this time.

> And for me to let a bitch struggle with any delivery at any point during the whelping, to the point of becoming exhausted, simply wouldn't happen.

ABSOLUTELY agree.

Totally agree with you both.  Can't imagine letting a bitch go on for an hour in second stage (expelling contractions), when you reach that point for me it should be minutes. 

Grief it took less time for me to deliver a nearly 10 pound human infant once at the pushing stage.

For interest's sake, I wanted to relate this story:  My female Lulu had her first litter in September 2013 at the age of just under two years.  She had five puppies (small breed).  The first four were born just fine and dandy.  But the fifth one did not want to make an appearance, despite strong and prolonged contractions.  Naturally, after about 30 minutes of straining, I called the vet and said I believed we had a problem, and then I packed mum and the four babies into the car (in their own bed, where the birthing had taken place) and went to the practice (surgery, as you call it in the UK).  Lulu continued to have strong contractions all the way.  The vet made both a scan and an ex-ray, and determined that the puppy was alive but still not in the birth canal, just kind of "sitting there", for some reason which was not clear.  She (the vet) administered oxytocin.  Nothing.  She tried several other things (I forget exactly what), with no result.  Lulu just kept on straining, but without complaining, just normal, strong contractions.  She did not even seem to be exhausted.  Finally, after we had given nature a thorough "last chance", the vet and I saw that we we had no choice left but to do a C-section.  I was terribly disappointed and concerned, as it was Lulu's first litter, and she had just produced 4 puppies with no problems!  So the vet went off to prepare for the section while I stayed in another room with mum and the 4 babies.  This was all happening in the evening hours, so luckily no other patients waiting.  And then....and THEN:  lo and behold, what did I see! The vulva was suddenly opening and that puppy came out in one whoosh!  After HOURS of contactions.  Bingo!  It was one of the great moments of my life!  In an instant ALL those worries slipped from my shoulders, my stomach let go, I started to breathe again, no C-section, no cutting my little dog up, no horrific bills to pay, and above all: everybody was just fine!  So, well, you just never know, do you? 

Wow, how long was that from strong contractions onwards Nimue?

about 4 hours

Some of the books I have suggest that, if it's the last puppy, or even one of the last, you don't have a c-section - even if it means the puppy dies. 

Not sure what I think about that.

For me:  NO WAY!

> Some of the books I have suggest that, if it's the last puppy, or even one of the last, you don't have a c-section -

In the UK anyone doing that could be prosecuted under the Animal Welfare Act.

I guess it depends on how you value the life and health of the bitch, the possible complications after c-section, the increased risk for future pregnancies after a section, the impact on the rest of the litter in terms of missing colostrum and maternal bonding due to GA, versus the life of a puppy which may already be lost....

I guess it depends on how you value the life and health of the bitch, the possible complications after c-section, the increased risk for future pregnancies after a section, the impact on the rest of the litter in terms of missing colostrum and maternal bonding due to GA, versus the life of a puppy which may already be lost....

Well a dead puppy left inside can lead to emergency spaying due to pyometra, so all the above would apply to the pups then.

But surely more likely the pup would be born later, and dead - not left inside....

I simply could not do this.  And I cannot imagine that any vet here would agree to leave a puppy inside the bitch to die (and then who knows what).  I find this a very strange idea.  Where did you read or hear about this?

English language pronunciations, which make you wonder how any foreigner ever learns it.
Take the combination ea: 
read
hear
learn
steak
heart
bread
meander

But I digress...

Good god you cant leave a dead puppy inside a bitch. The risk of infection would be high and no guarantee she would give birth to it, that needs medical intervention to remove.
Where are you reading this?

Wherever you read that then ignore it, apart from any moral objections you would more than likely have a very sick bitch, possibly an emergency spaying and the probable loss of a puppy that could have been saved.  It is true that puppies are born alive hours or even days after whelping is thought to have ended but I suffered the horror of a puppy missed by the vet and delivered 36 hours later and stinking, not a scenario I would wish on anyone. Luckily my bitch was fine but it could so easily have been different, I can see that some people might think that they will take a chance and there is a degree of stress in going to the vet and expense for treatment but those who think that maybe should not be breeding at all

This has been my experience, in a third litter of my Myka born 4 years ago.

Vet told me the bitch had finished, but we had a dead pup born day and a half after the last.

We put her on antibiotics for a week.

The thing is unless you had the bitch x-rayed or scanned you might not know there was another puppy left (as in my case vet palpation was negative).

I only raised concerns because when was straining the next day and they told me it was due to pressure or the bladder on her uterus that she wanted to strain after weeing (this was the emergency vets as it was of course a weekend).

Vets have even missed pups doing a C section.

But surely more likely the pup would be born later, and dead - not left inside....

All I can tell you is that I have had it happen in a cat. Two kittens born, thought that was it, 48 hrs later she started smelling something awful, turned out there were 2 dead kittens left inside and she had pyometra.

> Some of the books I have suggest that, if it's the last puppy, or even one of the last, you don't have a c-section - even if it means the puppy dies.

Which book have you read this in ?? I suggest you burn it or use it to line your whelping box.

Sods Law often means the last one out has to come out via a Section.    Frustrating, but there's NO WAY I'd not have one done.   How else is the puppy to come out if not by C.Section when/if needed in any case?    I don't get that suggestion.

"Vets have even missed pups doing a C section. "     True - and my much trusted vet missed one after a long delivery needing a shot to produce each puppy (I camped out at his office for the night, bringing him down after a sufficient interval between whelpings to give another shot).   Shortly after coming home with 5, and taking a time out to sort myself out, leaving mum and litter with my SO to watch, he yelled for me to come as another puppy was appearing!    She was somewhere my vet obviously couldn't feel, either side of the pelvis.   He thought she was empty to the point he didn't think x-ray was needed.   Wrong.  The pity was this one was born unaided where all the others had to be 'encouraged' (pit shot) to come into the world.  She was a keeper!

I can't remember which of these books I have that I read it in, I will look through them...

I think it's in a couple actually:

The Whelping and Rearing of Puppies by Muriel Lee:
p 45:

"When to have a Cesarean Section...
6)  Your bitch has delivered four pups and has had an additional two hours of labor.  She appears to have one pup remaining to be delivered.  Call the vet and ask if he wants to see her.  He will probably give her a shot of oxytocin.  Try to avoid a section in this case."  [I like the way the vet is always male, in these things!!]

I think it's somewhere else as well, will keep looking...

I don't think this suggests that you leave the pup to die, it suggests a shot of oxytocin which would hopefully help her progress.  Surely a bitch being taken away for a couple of hours for a c-section is a much better prospect than one who is riddled with infection due to a retained puppy and is taken into the vets for IV antibiotics and/or doesn't survive.

The problem with giving oxtocin without knowing how the puppy is presented is that if the puppy is transverse (lying across the pelvis) then it cannot be born no matter how the bitch pushes and it can cause a uterine prolapse, this would be a case for x-ray to check position and I would expect a vet to refuse to give a jab unless they can feel the puppy in the birth canal

Gosh, this is all so complicated!!  Fingers crossed everything goes smoothly!!!!!

Rabid, may I give you some advice, because I am starting to feel sorry for you:

There comes a point at which you must close the books and stop learning and worrying about all the things which "could" go wrong.  They probably won't, and you can go on reading about all this stuff after your healthy puppies are safely landed.  You scare yourself blue, and there is no point to that.  Just relax and enjoy now.  You will work closely with your vet, whom you trust, and he/she will be on hand at the time of the birth.  You will arrange that well in advance.  If you know that you can reach him/her, then that's all you need and in fact, that's all you can do!  So stop torturing yourself, close the books and just have faith!  It's going to be fine, so don't waste your time NOT enjoying this very special event.

Well said Nimue, we do get carried away with problems and you are right there will probably be no need to do anything except enjoy the puppies, I used to sit with a book in hand and then find no answer when I needed it, there is no substitute for experience

I know, but there is just nothing else to do right now & im bored of waiting!!!

My breed does usually whelp easily and without needing vet help, and my bitch's mum has whelped 3 normal sized litters without vet help too, so you're right, it will hopefully be ok!

It's amazing how many things can go wrong...or even right, in a pregnant bitch.  This is my third (and last) litter from my girl and I still don't know how long to leave it before the vet is called!!  Before anyone panics, I just mean how long to wait after the water bag comes out before contacting the vet.
I have asked that question in here before and nobody else seems to have experienced it and even long time breeders AND the vet just say "It can take ages can't it?"

My first litter, the bag was out for 2 and a half hours before I took her to the vet for oxytocin.  Second litter I braved it for 4 and a half hours.  My girl was scratching up and panting etc but no contractions were obvious, so I am wondering how long I dare leave it this time.

I still feel such a novice and I would love it if my girl had a natural delivery this time, but I don't want to risk her or the litter.  It's "reassuring" in a way to read that other people have very similar issues with whelping but I wish someone would have had the same as me for me to compare with

Anyway, today is day 39 and a scan says she is having three possibly four pups, which is the same as before.  She is well and happy so far thank goodness.
Hope everyone is well

xx