I'm having a dunce moment. Please remind when a bitch needs to be wormed if planning to breed?

Migraine imminent....

I worm when she comes into season and not again until I'm worming the pups at 2 weeks.

I Drontal my bitches prior to mating, but that won't help the encysted worms that will be triggered by pregnancy hormones.  I give my bitches a quarter dose of  Panacur 10% from day 40 of gestation to 2 days after whelping.  Pups are done at 2 weeks for 3 days and mum done at the same time, but one day at normal adult dose.

Using Panacur during pregnancy means that pups are born 98C% worm free and all they have to do is thrive.  I've used this method for donkeys' years and have never seen  a pup with worms.

I worm in season before mating, then as I am using Panacur I worm daily from 6 weeks to two days post whelping at 1/4 dose, to reduce the migration of t.canis larva via the placenta n milk to negligible levels (it is said to reduce larval migration by 98%). 

This give s new-born pups the advantage of not carrying a worm burden that they otherwise would.

I believe no other product is licensed for this purpose and deals with such early larval stages.

I have used this protocol for 7 generations of bitches now.

Thank you ladies -that's the answer I was looking for. Was having a really dense moment and the migraine isn't helping.

thanks again

I'll be worming before she comes into season - because my bitch doesn't tolerate wormers well - and then I won't be worming during pregnancy for the same reason and because I'm uneasy giving any drugs during pregnancy.

I am doubting myself.

How much panacur should I be giving my 36kg in whelp girlie?

I'm scared of Panacur.

I'm not worming during pregnancy so can't help there...

Have you had your 2nd scan yet??

1/4 adult dose daily so 9ml.

Have dosed my pregnant bitches now for 7 generations.

Thank you brainless...where would I be without you? :) I gave her 18ml today so hadn't quartered it and it just didn't seem right to me. So glad I asked :)

No, not yet rabid. I have been poorly and then went through a couple of bleak days when I realised my builders had run off with money and not finished the work up to standard....am thinking it might be too late now but will ring the scanner and ask :)

That all sounds a bit depressing, I hope you're better in all ways soon!  Do you need the scan or is it clear from her expanding body that all is ok??

I am more and more sure, as the days go by, that we have pups on the way :)  My new worry is whether they will have 2 heads, 5 legs and cleft palettes.  Our neighbours sprayed weed killer up against a low wall next to our yard a few days ago.  Luckily the weeds on our side are fine(!), so hopefully none has come over, but I do get freaked about pesticides and that kinda thing.  I'm not walking through any agricultural fields but we do live in a rural area, and I just worry about the tractors driving about on the road outside our house after spraying and stuff like that.  I am probably being totally paranoid... Sometimes I think this whole thing is so stressful, I could never possibly do it again - and we haven't even had pups yet

> I gave her 18ml today so hadn't quartered it and it just didn't seem right to me

Try not to worry if you gave her a bit too much just one time.  Remember that Panacur has been tested at many times the recommended dose with no problems at all.  It is genuinely the best for pregnant bitches.

:) not too stressed about it Jean. I remember when I used the puppy syringe for the 1st time and misread the instructions. I didn't bring the little ring down and ended up pumping almost half of it in to the poor thing. Rang the out of hours vet and they reassured me it would be fine as panacur is such a broad spectrum medication and just to watch her stools for the next 24hrs. I spent all night thinking I'd given the poor thing a death sentence! She was completely fine - gave me a few grey hairs though!

She hasn't progressed much after her ribs sprung rabid. She is harder and tighter around the under carriage but nothing more visablr....they tend to carry their whelps quite high up in my breed :)

I know why some choose not to worm but I feel better knowing it's done as I don't worm normally and use worm counts instead.

Sometimes I think this whole thing is so stressful, I could never possibly do it again - and we haven't even had pups yet

I claimed a couple of days ago - with disagreement from non-breeders! - that only other breeders can TRULY understand what a caring and conscientious breeder goes through. It's kind of amazing, and yes, it IS stressful!  You really have to be bitten by the bug in order to put yourself through it all, be more than a little addicted to the fascination of creating new, miraculous little beings and making people happy because of them.  It is a wonderful reward to see your puppies bring sunshine into someone's life.

Thanks Nimue, it doesn't help that I'm a bit of a worrier too!  I know of other great breeders who are really laid back about all this.  I'm sure that comes with experience though, once you've done it many times and it's been ok, then you tend to assume it will be ok again - whereas if you've never done it, it's all a big mystery!

I have found that the longer I breed, the more I learn about or experience the things that "could" go wrong.  Earlier I didn't worry because I didn't know that things like that could happen!  So you gain more and more respect for all the bugs and the inertias and the intestinal infections and the dangers of pesticides and the birth defects and the worming stuff and so on...  All of which, of course, do NOT usually happen!

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!  C'est la vie! 

I used worm before the season during which I was going to mate my bitch, and again 2 weeks after whelping, at the time I first wormed the litter.  I wasn't happy to worm, assuming my bitches were pregnant, during the pregnancy.

Other than with the first litter, when my ignorance meant I didn't worm before mating, there was only one puppy of the two, that survived.  When I first wormed him he produced a ton of worms ..... for the longest time I couldn't look at spaghetti.    After that, with the worming schedule as above, I never saw any worms from the puppies after being wormed the first time (or later!).

Here in Switzerland we worm the female during the last third of her pregnancy (usually with Milbemax). (I also worm her and all my dogs before she is mated.)  Then Mum and the puppies are wormed at 2 weeks and every two weeks from then on, using different worm preparations.  I have never EVER seen a worm coming from one of my puppies.  I think I would faint dead away if I did.  I would be absolutely horrified!  But I guess that's because I have no experience in that area.

The procedures for vaccinations and worming vary so greatly from country to country that one really does not know what to make of them!  Most confusing!

When you worm with Milbemax, Nimue, do you just do that once (during pregnancy I mean)?  The Panacur is used from day 40, every single day (a tiny amount) until 2 days after whelping.

I had never ever heard of this business of worming the pregnant female EVERY DAY during pregnancy (I guess, as you say, starting on day 40) with Panacur before I got on this forum!  I'm going to ask my vet about this. Every vet I have had so far has said to worm once in the last third of the pregnancy with Milbemax (I suppose one could use the 3-day Panacur treatment as well, I don't know) and then again when the puppies are two weeks old.  As I wrote, I also worm just before the mating.

I'm scared of Panacur because I believe it nearly killed two puppies once.

What happened to your two puppies?

At around 2.5 weeks or so, they stopped nursing. They just "played around" with the nipples, but lost interest quickly and crawled away. I took them to the vet, and he said that they did not make the impression of "sick" puppies, because they were not limp.  But their temperatures had gone way down, they were shivering, and I was terrified.  I started feeding them liberally with a syringe and gave them some Nutrical as well, and I brought them through.  I got up during the night and fed them, and I fed them throughout the day.  They started to improve quite quickly, and after a few days they were back to nursing again.  I suspected the Panacur because of the timing of the whole event.  I can't recreate it exactly, but it happened not long after I had given them the panacur.  No one will ever know for sure, but I certainly don't give my puppies panacur anymore.  I just can't....
I did read some posts from people on the internet who related similar experiences with panacur.

Oh really, that's interesting.  I've never read any bad experiences with Panacur - I will do a google and see.  I have both Drontal Puppy and Panacur syringes at the ready.  (Do you have Drontal Puppy there?).

Hmm, well this is interesting.

In the US, they have it branded as Safeguard (fenbendazole) - in the UK it's Panacur. 

Safeguard's data usage sheet says not to use before 6 weeks at the earliest.  I wonder why Panacur's says you can use it from 2 weeks....

One never knows, does one...?  I'll have a look and see if I can find those stories from others about their experiences with Panacur.  They might have been in German, I don't remember.  But not to forget that these are simply anecdotal, not based on anything other than the random personal experience which may or may not have been very subjectively and/or inacurately interpreted.

We certainly do have Drontal here, but Drontal Puppy?  I don't know, and I am going to ask my vet about that.  Because I would like to have various products I can use.  They say it is not good to worm with the same stuff every time.  Vets here use Welpan, but as Welpe is the German word for puppy (think;  whelp!), it might be a German product and not available in the UK.  Welpan is messy as hell and turns the puppies bright pink, so you take your photos BEFORE administering Welpan!  Then there is Banminth, which I find nice to use (you smear the paste on the roofs of their mouths), but it is said that its protection is not as comprehensive as other products.  It's kind of an "old-fashioned" product,, been around for a long time.  Panacur is ultra-modern, but I am scared of it.  See?  I too am doubting and cautious, so that's why I understand where you are coming from.  I admire your research and tenacity! 
I must say, I detest giving worm stuff, Panacur or whatever.  It's just so totally chemical, and it scares me.  But worms are worse, so you gotta do it.

I must say, having just been looking around the internet in English and in German, most reports about Panacur are positive.  So I think it is better to do what the vet thinks is right.  My experience does not seem to be wide-spread.

Certainly I have had pups react, loose appetite a bit etc, which is why I don't worm until 3 weeks, and pups are starting on solids.

My view is that having wormed the bitch daily in last three weeks of pregnancy which is supposed to reduce worm larva transference to pups(it's the only wormer to do this) they can wait that little bit longer, until they are stronger.

JeanSW has tiny pups and still uses Panacur, dosing very carefully.

I guess Safeguard is 22% granules, so it may be harder to get the dosage right for tiny puppies and maybe that's why they say not before 6wks....

Never used the granules as it's a more expensive presentation, the 10% suspension is much more cost effective.

I get through more than 100ml at one go doing my adults

Brand names confuse the issues, it's best to refer to the active ingredient.  Fenbendazole is the one in Panacur.  The data will obviously vary in the presentation/strength. 

Piperazine was the old fashioned wormer and only active on adult worms.

With Panacur they do a 2% and 10% liquid, and they do two strengths in granules (that I have never used).

> so it may be harder to get the dosage right for tiny puppies

I use the liquid Panacur because my pups are honestly tiny and I am able to be 100% accurate with a 1ml syringe.  Bear in mind that, for some pups, we are talking about a 0.02ml dose! 

Panacur and Safeguard are both fenbendazole, yet Panacur says it can be used from 2 wks and Safeguard only from 6 weeks...

Used drontal puppy suspension for pups rather than panacur