One of my beloved puppies was given a grade one heart murmur at its pre sale vet check, vet advised me that this wasn't unusual and should go on its own, as it was the smallest of the litter I wasn't too worried.
I advised the purchasers of this fact and offered them the chance to cancel the sale, or wait to hav him, they decided they wanted him, and went happily off.  I give a contract with 7 days for a vet check and return if unhappy. They had their own vet check him, he agreed with what I said and all seemed fine.
He's been gone 7 weeks now and suddenly I get an email saying the murmur has suddenly got worse and they want to return for a refund.
I am in pieces to know what I should do, I want to have him back as they seem very distanced from him, but do I give a refund, and is my busy noisy household the right environment to bring him back to. I'm sure this will have happened to someone else so advice appreciated.

Depends if you want the puppy back more than keeping the cash they paid for him, that's the bottom line.

If you refuse to refund and they don't want the puppy they'll find another way to move him on.

There's also a consideration of whether you have a contract in place, what it says, and if it has a time limit on refunding for the puppy.....although contracts aren't legal documents, you could quote it and see what their reaction is.

You could also ask to see their vets report saying his murmurs got worse instead of better, but still the bottom line remains the same....cash or puppy.

A lot depends on contract what you do refund but I would give them something, get him back but also get them to bring the or email.in advance the vet report which states his murmur has got worse.

When it comes to things like this, my only concern is for the well being of the puppy. I would give them a full refund and have my puppy back safe and sound (make sure he/she will be o.k.).

Oh dear..........

Probably another vet scaring the life out of a new owner, it happens a lot lately with all breeds and to the best of breeders. I think it is purely out of luck that I've never had it happen to one of my pups, as some of my acquaintances have had the odd vet state one of their pups has a murmur, if there are no hereditary reasons, these are generally innocent flow murmurs, they can often be in young pups and then disappear and the adult dogs are fit and healthy, after vets panicking and having puppy owners pay for expensive tests.

I dare say that these owners now believe they will need to pay out thousands for tests, have to have really expensive insurance cover, ( if they can get it) and their dog will be on medication for life, have seizures? Who knows what they now believe?

But, there is the chance that it is a serious problem, so what is the new owner to do?

Most owners after 7 weeks couldn't bare to return their pup, most have bonded so closely it would be like giving away their child.........so, these people have either truly been horrified by the implications, or they don't love their pup.

I've added this link, (bottom of my post) that explains more scientifically what flow murmurs are, (first one I found on the internet) you could show it to them, as vets often will not disclose this.........you could ask for a vets report, which could show an increase and a potential problem?

But, regardless, the owners have committed in my eyes the mortal sin of asking to bring your pup back for a refund. You've been straight and honest from the start, you disclosed and they took the pup regardless of the 'murmur' so legally,................ you could refuse, it's up to you? But, if you're the kind of breeder I hope you are..........

**Alarm bells** they don't love him enough. I would grab my pup and be glad to have him home.

Plenty of people have dogs with heart murmurs, of course he/she can live happily with you, can live happily on medication and have a normal life, it is not even a worrying grade at present,

If you have a line and breed that is not generally on heart murmur alert, chances are it is a puppy flow murmur (I hope) give them their money hun, (even though you don't have to) and have your own vet/or another more experienced vet, check the pup on return,

I hope you will be telling us that your pup soon has the all clear and you can then find him/her a forever home, if you do not just keep the pup yourself.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/flow.html

Of course if needs be give a full refund. The welfare of the puppy is what's important and getting it back into your care.

I know someone whose dog supposedly has a heart murmur. Not that you can tell when she's running about with all her friends.
I'd still get your pup back though, but I'd bet there's nothing wrong when you get him back.

I agree with the above - even if you cannot keep the pup yourself, have him back and refund the money - even if it is only a partial refund. I too would request a copy of the report and then speak to the vet who saw him and diagnosed it to be worse. I would then have him rechecked at your own vet.

If you feel the need, you could deduct a sum off the purchase price as you will need to have him re checked, settle him back in with your lot and then - should the need arise - readvertise him for sale. If the murmur had been detected after the sale and missed by my own vet, then I would refund the entire sum but in this case you made them fully aware of the situation and they took pup home fully aware of the condition. In this case, I might feel justified in deducting a small amount.

Years ago I had a dog who was diagnosed with a heart murmur when she was five years, no idea if she had it before and it wasn't detected as it was feint and the vet really had to listen carefully for it. Didn't seem to affect her in any way and she ran around with other dogs very happily, lived to a good age too.

> <br />If you refuse to refund and they don't want the puppy they'll find another way to move him on.<br /><br />There's also a consideration of whether you have a contract in place, what it says, and if it has a time limit on refunding for the puppy.....although contracts aren't legal documents, you could quote it and see what their reaction is.

As said, and yes there is always the possibility they may sell him without you being involved.   However, before you give a refund, partial or full, I think you should ask them to give their vet permission to talk to your vet (it's usually done that way rather than their vet talk to you even if you are the breeder) and if that happens, get your vet to ask re this sudden worsening of the heart condition.

I had to take a puppy back the one time - I'd kept her until her mum's sister whelped her litter (it was one time I did two litters comparatively close together).   Once I saw the quality of the sister's puppies, I decided to home the one I'd kept.   Unfortunately it wasn't a good rehoming and even if she was older, I took her back.    Financially the sum involved wasn't huge (I wanted the home, not the income and she wasn't a young puppy at the time) but I said I'd make a refund less a small daily 'boarding fee' depending on how long it took for me to find another suitable home.  At the time this was agreed.  However later on, these people came back at me saying if they'd known they weren't getting a full refund, they have found her a home themselves.   And this is the risk you take if you don't accept the situation, make a refund and GET THE PUPPY BACK.

And for sure, what is in the Sale Contract, if you had one, is relevant.

There is no doubt some vets will scare the living daylight out of new owners....... I sold a puppy, fully health checked to a lovely couple telling them they should get their own vet to do a health check too.   He went on a Saturday and Monday morning they called back saying their vet had said he was 'all wrong' and needed a complete set of x-rays.   I pleaded with them to bring him back to my vet (with them there if they preferred) but they insisted in going ahead with their own vet.   That poor puppy was in with their vet on that Wednesday, all day.   What did they find - NOTHING!!!   My vet had spoken with their vet meantime but the result of all this, apart from the trauma to the puppy (I wept) was it had soured my relationship with these people, even if their vet found nothing wrong.   I've had vets rubbish my dietary advice too which makes me furious too.   I wish vets would give breeders more credit much as they probably see the result of what a bad breeder produces, more than the good ones.

Give the refund so you get the puppy back. It's as simple as that. Yes, you probably think they don't deserve it but it's the puppy you have to think about. In my contract  I state full refund up to 12 weeks old and then half refund up to 6 months old. Anything to make sure the owners come back to me.

Strange question, of course full refund.

Prospective puppy owner ideal question 7 weeks ago

Yes I want him and both vets say it should improve on its own but what happens in the next 6 months if the condition worsens. Insurance won't cover a pre-existing medical condition.

Your answer 7 weeks ago ???

I run for the hills with your cash and say you knew about his condition etc...

thanks for all your constructive help, always good to get feedback rather than just my emotional response.

Get your puppy back, no matter what.

As said, and yes there is always the possibility they may sell him without you being involved.   However, before you give a refund, partial or full, I think you should ask them to give their vet permission to talk to your vet (it's usually done that way rather than their vet talk to you even if you are the breeder) and if that happens, get your vet to ask re this sudden worsening of the heart condition.

Exactly what I was going to say. Happened to me with a kitten. Interestingly as soon as my vet speaking to their vet was mentioned, the kitten was miraculously 100 % healthy again..... But the pup needs to come back no matter what.

Never mind contracts, never mind who said what, never mind what you might be justified in deducting for whatever reason. Give a full refund and get your puppy back inside your front door. It's the only thing that matters. Don't give these people any reason to sell the puppy to the highest bidder. Give them what they want, no arguments.

Echoing all that has been said, they don't want him any more and it's only responsible to have him back, you could say that you will pay them his re-sale price but that does risk them refusing and selling him somewhere else, possibly without disclosing his murmur.  I only once had the shock of finding a grade 4/5 murmur in a puppy at 6 weeks, I rang the new owners straight away to tell them and say we were keeping the puppy as he was not fit for sale. My distress was compounded by the reaction of the people who were furious, they had been waiting for their puppy, bought beds, food etc and given him a name and here I am letting them all down.  I was pretty emotional and upset and even more so a few weeks later when the puppy had to be pts following further investigations by a cardiologist and the puppy's rapid deterioration.

forgive my emotional response here but in my opinion anyone who has a puppy for seven weeks and can send them back to the breeder as now claiming they are not healthy?

They do not deserve them i know that after having mine girls for any length of time would i ever have been able to part with them regardless of what was claimed to be wrong with them they are family its disgusting really, not very helpful to you must be so hard for you as a breeder hope all works out.

I would be very interested to know what the vet told the owners!

I don't think I could return a puppy after one week, let alone 7, BUT if the vet said, "he needs heart surgery, it's £6000," and the insurance company said, "well technically you knew he had a murmur so this is a pre-existing condition," then I probably would be phoning the breeder to see if she could take him back and pay for his surgery, because I just couldn't afford that out if pocket, and couldn't watch my young dog die for lack of treatment.

to poodlenoodle:

But how do you know that the breeder would really do this?  What if she said no?  Don't you think she might simply have the puppy put down?  Because maybe she too cannot afford such an operation?  It would be a really tough one to solve.  I hope it never happens to any of us.

I would never EXPECT the breeder to pay for that sort of thing! But I would at least be in touch about it. If the decision had to be taken to euthanise I wouldn't want to make it alone, having not at least turned that stone over. But I've been in touch with my breeder a long time, I feel very fond of her, so it wouldn't be me demanding a refund for returning defective goods, but me seeking counsel and solutions for a heartbreaking situation.

But I can imagine if you have a more transactory relationship with the breeder (wanted puppy, found breeder, bought puppy) and less knowledge, you might feel lied to about this sort of thing and angry about the situation (if the only thing they knew about heart murmurs is that they are not abnormal in small puppies and most go without treatment, it IS going to come as a shock when one actually gets worse and needs serious treatment).

I just am not sure that they don't love the puppy enough, if there is a genuine cardiac problem needing extensive treatment. The difficulty is finding out if this is a genuine situation or if they're actually just not the right people and don't want the dog and this is the excuse.

Some valid points poodle noodle but if it were me I woudl be wanting a second opinion as the owner and involve the breeder amd then depending on outcome discussions as to the best way forward both financially emotionally amd most importantly  for the  good of the pup.one vets opinion in something so potentially catastrophic needs some more investigation . Especially as ine vet 7 weeks ago thought no more than grade 1 now it's being said it's very serious..If the owners don't appear to be bothered with thsi and just want to return the pup agree get him back asap and return money to make sure there is no come back

>Echoing all that has been said, they don't want him any more and it's only responsible to have him back, you could say that you will pay them his re-sale price but that does risk them refusing and selling him somewhere else, possibly without disclosing his murmur.  I only once had the shock of finding a grade 4/5 murmur in a puppy at 6 weeks, I rang the new owners straight away to tell them and say we were keeping the puppy as he was not fit for sale. My distress was compounded by the reaction of the people who were furious, they had been waiting for their puppy, bought beds, food etc and given him a name and here I am letting them all down.  I was pretty emotional and upset and even more so a few weeks later when the puppy had to be pts following further investigations by a cardiologist and the puppy's rapid deterioration.

That's a terrible shame Mixedpack and specially the reaction of the potential owners, you were doing the responsible thing in informing them and withdrawing him from sale. I can understand they would have been terribly upset too having bought all the stuff and named him etc, but they wouldn't have liked it better if you'd sold him anyway and they'd had to have him pts 2 weeks on. It would have been all 'irresponsible evil breeders' again then!