Hi all
I've currently got a litter of puppies for sale and one person came to view them, chose a puppy. Gave me a deposit and exchanged details so I could register the microchip over to them and insure the puppy for them.
They've now decided that the puppy will be too much work for them and they no longer want it...
They also want their deposit returning but I've already done everything necessary for them to collect said puppy including transfer of microchip
I don't want to get a bad name for myself so offered the deposit back and agreed for them to collect it at a certain time.

They never turned up after me waiting an hour and a half for them then they proceed to message me asking if they can collect it today!

I feel like I'm being messed around here and I thought it was fair enough of me to even offer it back to them

What should I do now?

Thank you

Personally I would suggest either sending a cheque recorded delivery or similar so you know it has arrived , ask the post office for the securest method or ask for their bank details and return by bank transfer. I know you have been mucked about and probably could deduct your costs but I would want to get it sorted. Any way better now than if they took the pup and changed their mind you might never find out.
Many breeders don't take deposits as they feel it gives them more control if things don't go to plan

Yes they are messing you about but much better that it is now and not when they have one of your precious puppies. If they turn up just smile sweetly, give them the deposit back and then shut your door. If they don't, then say you will send them a cheque by special delivery, which you will deduct from the amount.

I don't take deposits because of exactly this reason. Also I thought that puppies had to go to their new owners with their microchip registered to the breeder and it was for them to change it over. The insurance I've always used is free for the first 4 weeks, so shouldn't have cost you anything.

re microchip breeder has to do chip and then transfer on sale much like a car as far as I have understood. I don tknow the costs but if it were me I would be breathing a sigh of relief that they told me now and forget the money although I agree taking cost of special delivery for posting cheque would be good. Ime its around £6 for next day special

Maybe nobody is going to agree with me on this and I have no problem with that, but I believe its better to ask for a 'non-refundable deposit' and if they don't have a valid reason for changing their mind, then they loose their deposit otherwise, what's the point in you taking a deposit in the first place ...?

Better to make it clear from the beginning, that the 'Deposit' is non-refundable and only take this non-refundable deposit from someone, once you are totally happy with them.

I read today that more and more people are asking for their deposit back. Years ago it seemed to be more expected to loose a deposit if you didn't have a valid reason for changing your mind.

I understand that 'Some' people don't want confrontation so just hand the deposit back, but that will just encourage more half hearted 'Time Wasters'.

Breeding dogs is stressful enough anyway therefore, by asking for a non-refundable deposit this should help eliminate 'Time Wasters'.

Or don't take one in the first place, much simpler. I've never taken deposits.

I use AVID microchips so I register the pups to me as the breeder and then I change the ownership to the puppy owner before they leave me as in the past I know people haven't changed the ownership due to the £16 fee from petlog

I did that a couple of weeks ago.. I trusted a lady and her children as they spent an hour with the pups and chose their puppy. Even gave him a name so I thought she was genuine then she called the next day to say a working bred puppy will be too much work for her and the children
They had even met the pups parents and seen how laid back and friendly they are
Seems like "giving their word" doesn't seem to make a difference any more

The danger with asking for a non-refundable deposit is that people could be tempted to then say they'll have a puppy after all, but sell it on. I would rather run the risk of having a time-waster than having a puppy go to the wrong home

Or don't take one in the first place, much simpler. I've never taken deposits.

That's fair enough each to their own, however, I believe if someone gives you a non-refundable deposit that shows commitment.

Time wasters don't like to give non-refundable deposits.

I never take deposits for the simple reason ..I DONT want people described by the OP "committed" to my puppy...or me to them.

The danger with asking for a non-refundable deposit is that people could be tempted to then say they'll have a puppy after all, but sell it on. I would rather run the risk of having a time-waster than having a puppy go to the wrong home

You don't have to ask for a large 'non-refundable deposit', but just enough to see if they are showing enough commitment.

        Just my opinion, each to their own.

You don't have to ask for a large 'non-refundable deposit', but just enough to see if they are showing enough commitment.

There's no way to win really is there - take a deposit and potentially end up stuck dealing with the wrong sort of person, or don't take one and potentially end up with several unhomed puppies after thinking you had a good place for them all to go.  Unfortunately the flaky people are the problem in both scenarios and it's just hard to get a 100% success rate of spotting them.  The ideal might be to ask if they are willing to pay a solid-enough deposit, but not actually taking one?

I would never take a deposit and always tell my buyers it is because I want them to be able to change their mind at any time. I'd MUCH rather be left with a pup than have somebody buy it because they feel they have no choice. If they let me down, well then there was a lucky escape, wasn't it? Unless there are unforeseen circumstances, the right buyers will not let you down.

I don't think it is strictly legal to have transferred the microchip until the puppy has actually LEFT. Until the moment you hand it over you are still the keeper. If the new owner does it they also get it for free if they do it at the same time as transferring the KC reg.

I spoke to AVID and they told me once deposit is paid, transfer microchip so I can give the buyers a receipt when the puppy leaves....?

I've thought long and hard about the deposit subject, and have decided not to take deposits.  In my mind, this is because I don't want anyone feeling they have a 'hold' over a particular puppy before that puppy leaves my premisses, and once people have paid deposits, they (rightly or wrongly) assume they do have just that.  (I just yesterday got an email from someone on our list, asking when they could place a deposit - they are worried there won't be a puppy for them and want to lock one in ASAP with a deposit!!)  I know legally breeders can return deposits and refuse to sell puppies to people, but new owners don't realise this and act like they now 'own' the puppy once a deposit is taken.

I tell the puppy buyers, like Goldmali, that I don't want anyone to feel obliged to take a puppy anyway, if they are having second thoughts, just because they've already paid a deposit. 

I also will place puppies in homes (people won't be able to choose a puppy), and we'll use our Puppy Aptitude Test at 6wks to do this (as well as what we've seen of the puppies over their development).  But we won't assign a puppy a particular home until 6wks.  So until then, people would be placing a deposit without even knowing which puppy it was for. 

So - no deposits here.  I think I might do the microchip and the PetPlan insurance 24hrs before collection so it's all ready, but not many people will drop out that close.

What an excellent way to provide caring homes for your pups Rabid! I think I may take this approach for my next litter
Thank you for a great explanation into your way of doing things
I also wait until a day or two before the puppy leaves before doing the chip and insurance and this particular person dropped out 2 days prior to collection so I now have this one puppy left who when other people have enquired have said "why is he the only one now left? What's wrong with him?"
I'm now left to sort his vaccinations out and he'll probably have a more traumatic time settling into his new home as I'd organised for the last two pups to leave me with 1/2 hour gap between so none of the puppies are left stressed and pining for their littermates

I am unable to put his mother back with him as she's due for spaying in three weeks and the vet wants her completely dried off before spaying so if she went back to him it would make her start producing again

Just curious, why did you breed if not keeping one ?

Are you selling without any vaccinations ?

Can you not delay op , speak to vet ?

I do take "non refundable " deposits. I believe that this shows commitment from the puppy buyers. I do have lots of time wasters and this sorts out the "wheat from the chaff". I have only ever kept a deposit from someone backing out on two occasions. One was because the lady had not told her partner, who worked away, that she was buying a puppy and when she told him he was not happy, the other one was because she got a pup elsewhere because she wanted it NOW. No regrets in either instance.

I do take "non refundable " deposits. I believe that this shows commitment from the puppy buyers. I do have lots of time wasters and this sorts out the "wheat from the chaff". I have only ever kept a deposit from someone backing out on two occasions. One was because the lady had not told her partner, who worked away, that she was buying a puppy and when she told him he was not happy, the other one was because she got a pup elsewhere because she wanted it NOW. No regrets in either instance.

I do not vaccinate pups prior to leaving Kenny.  Firstly they leave to go to their new homes at 8 weeks and that is the very earliest I would vaccinate.  There are various manufacturers of vaccines and it is not ideal for a puppy to be vaccinated with one brand to then find that their new families' chosen vet doesn't stock that particular brand (I have heard of vets insisting on starting the vaccination program again in this circumstance).  Usually I kg licences breeders and those who have to keep pups longer will vaccinate prior to the pups leaving.

In Response to Lynneb

I'm with you!  I've vetted the people pretty well before I am willing to take a deposit (and the reservation), so that already rules out quite a lot to begin with.  I like the commitment a deposit implies.  They really have to consider their decision before they make it.   I've had little trouble with this.

Goldenmum, I'd be so interested to know what you mean by this:

Usually I kg licences breeders and those who have to keep pups longer will vaccinate prior to the pups leaving.

"I kg" should read "only"

There are other ways to filter out the timewasters - we have a 4 page questionnaire online for them to fill out.  Few people who are not serious plough through that!!! 

Then I get the questionnaire back and make sure there is someone home enough to raise a puppy, that the puppy will live indoors and not be kennelled outside, that they intend to take the puppy through many pet dog training classes (at least - performance homes preferred), and so on.  Once I've been through all that, they get onto the shortlist. 

From about 45 applications, we now have 9 people on our shortlist, 5 of which are performance/competition homes.  (Which must be at least as good as the pet homes in all other ways, PLUS be performance homes on top.) 

When we know she is pregnant for sure, I will speak to them all on the phone - again, more filtering out of any timewasters which have got that far.

I don't find it difficult, to be honest.  People who email and say 'please can I go on your list for a specific coloured bitch?', get emailed a questionnaire - if I don't hear from them, they were a timewaster(!).

Re deposits I think it's fair  a non refundable deposit after breeder/buyer has gone thru pre checks..
Rabid I like how you pt puppies first and their welfare however for me I'd not wish a breeder to assign my puppy for me. I would prefer to pick my puppy even if it's from choice of two!

I was just wondering rabid (but re: saxonjus post) if the competition homes are okay taking a puppy you chose?

My breeder mostly chose our puppy (although she chose the one i really liked the look of most anyway) but i'd asked her to because she knew what we were looking for and it's a pet home, so it's far more important to me that he has a calm temperament and is confident than that he has the best conformation in the litter, if you see what i mean.  But don't competition homes want to actually choose the puppy they think will do the best at whatever they compete in?

I wonder if it is actually possible or wise to make generalisations about deposits (refundable or not), about questionaires, about signs of commitment and all the rest. Because different breeds mean different people with very different reasons for wanting a dog, and in fact, very different TYPES of people!  Try comparing someone who wants a Rottweiler with someone who is a total fan of the Chinese Crested, for instance, and you will find two very different sets of circumstances.  So I think one has to adjust to those very diverse temperaments, tastes and expectations and take them into account.  It's a little like my profession as a (retired) classical musician.  In an orchestra, you generally don't find the viola-players having their coffee break with the percussionists. The violists are probably sitting with other violists and maybe some violinists and cellists thrown in, even the odd oboist!  But not the tuba-players.  These are off to the pub with the trombone-players.   So it is in the dog-world as well.  Very different people want (and are themselves!) very different breeds.  So maybe deposits for some breeders are spot on, for others they might not be such a good idea. 

I think the "should you choose a puppy or have one assigned" is probably a different subject to the one about deposits...

From my perspective, an experienced person who knows the breed, raising the puppies from birth to 8 weeks and seeing them every second of the day, assessing them at 7 weeks for aptitude - this person is best placed to decide which dogs are competition prospects and which are not.

Someone who comes to choose a puppy and spends 2-3 hours with the pup, is just getting a snapshot of the puppy at that point in time.  The puppy might be tired.  Or slightly under the weather from worming.  Or hungry and with loads of energy as a result.  OR anything else during 2 hours.

I think it's much better that someone who knows the puppies intimately from birth and has seen every part of their development, assigns puppies to homes, than that this decision all comes down to a few hours on one day. 

I also don't like the implication that there is the "pick" of the litter, and the 2nd best and the 3rd best and then there's the one at the end, that no one else wanted... The puppies are just DIFFERENT, not better or worse - what is better for one home, might be worse for another.  It's about getting the right fit, not 1st, 2nd, 3rd best....

So - I am happy to explain all this and our reasons for assigning puppies to homes.  And if anyone doesn't like it, then we are not the breeders for them - they are welcome to go elsewhere, where they can choose their competition prospect on the basis of a few hours of contact...

But really I would hope that anyone who has chosen us as breeders, trusts us to be able to make the right choice for their needs...

I fully agree!

Out of interest what aptitude test do you work on and what will it actually show you? Do you have a breed who work?

Yes, my breed work.  I'm using the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test but I've taken out the "dominance" tests (since that's rubbish) and have put in a couple of my own tests instead to assess retrieving ability on game and noise-making/frustration tolerance.

The PATs give you a snapshot of the puppy at that time.  As they are carried out by someone the puppy has never met before, with you watching from a distance, they also show how each puppy relates to and engages with strangers.  They will show which puppies have a good startle-recovery time, which puppies are a bit more timid, which puppies are noise-makers and not good for a working home, which pups won't retrieve... Of course the results are not set in stone and have to be weighed against everything you yourselves know from raising them for 8 weeks - I wouldn't overrule that knowledge on the basis of a test result - the PAT is just another different perspective.

I always say a none-returnable deposit so the prospective buyers know that if they definitely want the puppy, they have the security of knowing that pup is theirs, and I also say to people when they come to view that they shouldn't pay a deposit if they're unsure as it is non returnable.  That way we all know where we stand.  They can go away and think about it and come back again if they want another look etc.  They can do that as many times as they want whilst puppies aren't spoken for...better than than a wrong decision made to the detriment of the puppy.
Good luck.
P.S. I think it's very good of you to return the deposit.

I always say a none-returnable deposit so the prospective buyers know that if they definitely want the puppy, they have the security of knowing that pup is theirs, and I also say to people when they come to view that they shouldn't pay a deposit if they're unsure as it is non returnable.  That way we all know where we stand.  They can go away and think about it and come back again if they want another look etc.  They can do that as many times as they want whilst puppies aren't spoken for...better than than a wrong decision made to the detriment of the puppy.
Good luck.
P.S. I think it's very good of you to return the deposit.

That's interesting about the Volhard test and taking out the dominance bits.
The breeders of my dog did the same as they wanted to have a pup with good working ability -they breed dual purpose GR's. They ended up keeping two of the pups as they both showed strong relieving abilities. They knew I was looking for a calm pup with a low prey drive so were able to say which one was like that. The breeders we're going to decide which pups went to which family, but decided to let us choose. However I let them advice me as the breeders wife in particular, knew each pups character intimately.

Bitches need to be spayed midway between seasons so 9 weeks pregnancy & 8 weeks to puppies leaving, means spaying needs to be done just after puppies leave, can't leave it much longer than that

This is why I didn't take a deposit.    Much as I could usually use the money for ongoing feed costs, it just was too tempting to spend it meaning should the new owner change their mind, I could find it difficult to make a refund.    However, most deposits are non-refundable and this should be stated on the receipt IN WRITING so there is no confusion.

Reputation is important, so rather than have a battle which could lead to bad feeling and the word being spread around (even if you are not at fault) I'd go with making a refund, IF I'd taken a deposit!!

"If they turn up just smile sweetly, give them the deposit back and then shut your door. If they don't, then say you will send them a cheque by special delivery, which you will deduct from the amount."

This I'd agree with!!

Also, although I'm not sure because microchipping wasn't compulsory when I was still breeding (even if we tattooed out Canadian-bred puppies) isn't it up to the breeder to microchip, and then the new owners do the transfer into their name?

ps    Although we did only breed 'for our next generation' if the resulting litter wasn't what I'd hoped for, I didn't necessarily keep anything.   Also we didn't vaccinate before selling - we usually didn't sell until 10 weeks, at which age they could go to their new homes, have a health check and first vaccination within the first 48 hours.  All too often vets prefer to start over, even if the breeder has had one vaccination done prior to sale.

After 40 years of dealing with puppy buyers you get to feel what's right.
No deposits, no 'tieing in' buyers..... take back and refund puppies from those who complain from day one, honor your responsibilities.
If any of the above are too onerous then you've too many pups for sale....JMHO.

I do understand your logic rabid behind choice of puppy to family. Do you advise the buyers all the results of the tests and why you felt this puppy suited their situation? I'm just curious

Yes, I'll give them the result of the PAT test and also tell them why this puppy seemed the best for their needs.

I don't think I've ever replied to a breeding post before, I love to read them as there's such a wealth of knowledge and experience that educates me about dogs in general, as well as breeding (not something I will ever do).

Toolz, saying that after 40 years you can easily sort out buyers is no help to a newbie. People want advice on how to do it - not how good you are.  Yes, give your credentials, but don't condescend.
I've been on this forum for about 10 years, under 2 different logins,  I've had lots of help and support but, recently it seems to have changed and become so judgemental and somehow self-serving in that people want/need to promote themselves and their competency rather than help the poster. Maybe it's a repercussion fro. Facebook groups?

This is why I didn't take a deposit.    Much as I could usually use the money for ongoing feed costs, it just was too tempting to spend it meaning should the new owner change their mind, I could find it difficult to make a refund.    However, most deposits are non-refundable and this should be stated on the receipt IN WRITING so there is no confusion.

This topic is seemingly a bottomless pit, but it is still worth discussing! 
I know exactly what you mean by being tempted to spend the deposit!  So I do a very simple thing:  I take the cash out of my account (if the payment has been remitted in this fashion) or else the cash I was given as deposit at the time of the reservation, and I keep it in the folder for each person who has reserved.  I don't touch it until the 10-week-old puppy has been placed in the hands of the new owner and the ownership officially transferred (pedigree and all).  On my reservation form (which is signed by both parties at the time of the reservation) it states clearly that the deposit will be refunded in full should I for some reason not be able to provide the puppy which was reserved, but that if the person who made the reservation simply changes his/her mind, then the deposit remains with me.  On the form it is indicated by the person whether he/she definitely wants only a female or only a male or if it is of no consequence, which gender they get.  If the puppies have already been born, then of course the chosen puppy is indicated by name.  Or we agree to wait for the decision until the puppies are old enough to really be able to judge them.

If between the time of reservation and the date of pick-up I should become less than convinced about the people, I tell them that I have (stating the reason) come to feel less than confident about the arrangement and that therefore I feel obliged to return their deposit.  I am sorry, but I cannot continue under these circumstances.  Since the people have no claim to their puppy (the puppy is legally still MY property), they HAVE to accept this.  Naturally I return the entire deposit immediately.  In 23 years and 43 litters, I have done this 4 times.  I didn't enjoy it, but I would never have been able to live with myself otherwise.

> I didn't enjoy it, but I would never have been able to live with myself otherwise.

And this is the bottom line!!!

Completely agree

"Toolz, saying that after 40 years you can easily sort out buyers is no help to a newbie. People want advice on how to do it - not how good you are.  Yes, give your credentials, but don't condescend.
I've been on this forum for about 10 years, under 2 different logins,  I've had lots of help and support but, recently it seems to have changed and become so judgemental and somehow self-serving in that people want/need to promote themselves and their competency rather than help the poster. Maybe it's a repercussion fro. Facebook groups?"

I didn't read this at all from Toolz post. Thought it was very helpful and boiled down to the sensible advice of going with what feels right, as a breeder, and leaving the door open for buyers who change their minds as they would be unsuitable homes in any case and better to find out before puppy leaves home.