I will no doubt be slated for my following post but ... When did it become the thing to do to ask for veterinary advice on an open forum ? How can people be so silly as to expect to get proper veterinarian advice from posters ? Most have no qualifications and should not be giving out advice. The vet is the place to be if you have a medical problem. It beggars belief that so many people will try anything to avoid a costly vet visit. To me my dogs are my life, their care is paramount and although on occasion it's possible to pick up tips about some things Never ever would I assume to diagnose or treat my animals without proper veterinary help. If Champdogs has now become the place for free unqualified advice then I think its time the Admin sorted it out and accepted some responsibility. One day it may come back to bite you. If someone does something because they asked on CD and were told to do XYZ and the dog died through lack of proper care will this forum take the blame ?
Please Admin sort this out and make it plain to the posters that treating a dog at home for undiagnosed problems with advice from unqualified people has no place on this forum. Nor does dosage information.
Aileen

well said i am with you on this
yes if its little cut that does not need vet treatment
but if pooring blood etc get to vet asap
i have seen this lot in horses people trying to treat issues thats vet job
also people that try and shoe their own horses grrrrrr muck it up then get farrier in my papa and dad are farriers and their left to hell of hoof
yes its time people seek vet help not ask on forum !!!!

I was reading the other day on a different site about a woman who's toy breed dog ate one (1) raisin.

She immediately called the vet, who said to give the dog hydrogen peroxide to induce vomiting. Duly forcefed the peroxide to the dog, but it didn't vomit. Called vet again, by this time over an hour had passed. Vet advised they bring the dog in, where they induced vomiting, didn't see the raisin at all, and charged the owner $300 for the treatment.

Personally I think it would have been much kinder (to the dog) and not to mention cheaper, to ask here and have someone more experienced point out that even her teeny dog could have eaten several ounces of raisins before getting into the bottom end of the possible toxicity level.

I agree that it is madness to seek medical advice on a forum when there is a clear and obvious need for veterinary care, but things aren't always that clear. Many people will call a friend or relative when a pet (or child) is "off" and they're debating whether or not to get medical help. Some people don't have vast experience or any experienced friends. Ideally you could call your breeder for advice, but not everyone with a dog knows the breeder, and then only last week a breeder missed a medical problem with a pup that wasn't at all obvious. There has to be a balance between consulting the vet every time ANYTHING happens, and never consulting the vet even if the dog is gravely ill. Forums like this fill the gap many less experienced people have, for good sound sensible advice. From reading I would say many a bitch has been allowed to relax at home and give birth normally because an inexperienced person has come fretting on the 63rd day (with the calendar being the only cause for concern) and been told not to worry by those who are better able to judge if there is actually cause or not for a trip to the vet. And likewise plenty of pups have been saved by those on here being able to say, from the description, "sounds like inertia, vet now!".

Personally I think it would have been much kinder (to the dog) and not to mention cheaper, to ask here and have someone more experienced point out that even her teeny dog could have eaten several ounces of raisins before getting into the bottom end of the possible toxicity level.

So do you know for certain the ratio between the dog's weight and the toxicity effect ? or are surmising ?
Aileen

I wouldn't be happy asking a forum about toxity. The vet made a diagnosis based on the owners info and the dog infront of him. My dog did similar and ate a packet of chocolate muffins. no way was I going to ask a forum so vet visit and £100 later I had less my bank but a healthy happy dog. Much safer/better outcome.
I am not one to run to the vet, I raw feed don't vaccinate other than at puppy age and don't use flea or worm treatment unless they have been seen or in the case of the  kids  with the doctor

Quite agree Merlot. All it takes is a phone call to the vets for advice and if they feel the dog needs to be seen then you go in. One of my pups years ago with my dads got into a bag and chewed up ibuprofen, we couldn't find all the tablets so off we all go to different vets. Mine was made to be sick and then sent home, my dads was kept in over night after induced vomiting. This is not something I would be messing with.

Another of my dads dogs was poorly but not in a way that would mean rushing yo the vets on the look of him. He was vomiting a bit and had sloppy poos with a bit of mucus in it and his eyes weren't their normal self. Called the vets for advice who wanted him rushed in as they suspected parvo as my dad doesn't vaccinate beyond puppy vaccs. Turns out he was poisoned and even with a week in the vets he sadly was pts.

Some things need vets advice but the throw back if someone on fb or a forum gives medical advice when they aren't trained could be catastrophic.
The amount I see about weeping eyes or red conjunctiva of late, people saying tea bags. No, you don't know what's causing this and eyes cant be messed with, get to the vets.

I often see my puppy is lame, what can I do.. Erm vets vets vets..

Seriously all it needs is some idiot trying to save their pocket to read a forum page and see advice and run with it and goodness knows what may or might have happened. So so wrong

So do you know for certain the ratio between the dog's weight and the toxicity effect ? or are surmising ?

I personally am neither certain nor surmising and i did not advise this person and have not offered any veterinary medical advice on this or any other forum!  (although the toxicity concentrations that vets use are not secret formulae, they are available in veterinary journals online, no asking on forums necessary, i just found them published in several reputable journals via a quick search).

The chocolate muffin story isn't really quite the same thing - would you have been as happy with the treatment and cost if the dog in question had eaten ONE chocolate chip?  Would you have gone to the vet and accepted such treatment for ONE chocolate chip?  Some people genuinely don't know how much to worry about whatever their dog ate and have no knowledge or experience to fall back on.  What seems obvious to one person isn't to another.  I can remember someone once showing me a "rash" on their baby's back and asking if she should take him to A&E (it was the weekend - she was asking me because i have 3 children and was thus, she decided, experienced) - the baby was feeding well, a good colour and gurgling happily and the "rash" was an impression from the ribbing on the waistband of his little trousers!

And the dog who "was poorly but not in a way that would mean rushing yo the vets on the look of him" - that implies that there IS a level of ill where you wouldn't rush to the vets, because often that level of ill would be minor and nothing to worry about?  How are you supposed to learn, if you are a novice, which things SHOULD mean rushing to the vet?  Some first time breeders might rush their bitch to the vet for every vomit, every day off their food, every bit of sloppy poo, exposing the bitch to endless stress and risk of infection, simply because they lack an experienced voice to say, "no, calm down, that's normal".

We are all adults, I certainly don't take every piece of advice offered online as gospel and i don't think many do.  I have seen lots of positive situations where supportive experienced people have been able to help the less experienced.

Nobody is required to request, give or follow online advice, for some people in some situations however, i think it can be very useful.

> Nobody is required to request, give or follow online advice, for some people in some situations however, i think it can be very useful.

The big problem with a forum on the internet offering medical advice though is that unless one knows the person  in real life one has no idea how much experience or credibility  the person posting a reply has. We can all share our experiences and what may seem a "similar situation" won't  take into account the previous medical history of the dog concerned. Only a vet is able to diagnose a condition but sometimes people forego contacting their vet and rely on the advice of others who may have had a dog with a similar condtion and those people need to remember that no two dogs are the same and other factors will affect the treatment a vet might advise.

One example that springs to mind is a sensitivity that some collies have to the drug ivermectin which can be found in certain pharmaceuticals including some wormers. Someone innocently suggesting to another poster to administer a wormer that worked well for their dog, but they are also unaware of ivermectin sensitivity in certain breeds, could end up in another poster's dog becoming seriously ill or dead. A vet should know that information and would steer clear of that type of wormer.  With the issue of chocolate, raisins or grapes the size of the dog that has eaten the substance plays a huge part in the toxicity levels - a very small amount could have a very detrimental affect on a tiny dog but virtually none at all on a St Bernard.

I believe a phone call to one's vet shouldn't be the last option one takes if there is a health issue with one's dog.

I'd certainly be on phone pdq to my vet if my boy had eaten a chocolate muffin or a few choc chips.

Well, it seems i am outnumbered on this thread.

I am about to bring a puppy home.  I am acquiring him from an excellent breeder, i've met his parents twice, i have arranged a vet (and have the contact details of the breeder's vet too), found puppy classes and chosen lifetime insurance cover.  He will want for nothing, i have the best of the best of everything ready for him, and have been reading for YEARS on the pitfalls to avoid in raising a nice puppy (i've only had rescues before, and knew lots about how to solve problems but less about how to avoid them in the first place).

But i suppose if we bring him home and he has a slightly soft poo at 3am on the first night due to the stress of the move it would be nice to think in addition to the breeder and vet there are you other lovely experienced people who might offer reassurance (or have offered it before on these forums where i can read it) so i don't rush him to the vet in the middle of the night and stress him out even more. And i know some will say it's common sense, but it's not common to all

> But i suppose if we bring him home and he has a slightly soft poo at 3am on the first night due to the stress of the move it would be nice to think in addition to the breeder and vet there are you other lovely experienced people who might offer reassurance (or have offered it before on these forums where i can read it) so i don't rush him to the vet in the middle of the night and stress him out even more.

I think a slightly soft poo at 3am on his first night home with you wouldn't be classed as a medical emergency by even the most cautious of owners

But if you came on here to say that he was constantly passing liquid poo that has blood in it, had a bloated tummy and was whimpering in pain my response would most definitely be " Phone your vet now"

I remember a friend of a friend of a friend who had a dog that had a bad leg that occurred after chasing a ball and crashing into another of her dogs. One of her friends suggested crate rest for a few days - on the second day of crate rest she woke up to find her dog was paralysed due to several broken vertebrae and was PTS that day. A phone call/visit to a vet may have saved her dog's life .

I think a slightly soft poo at 3am on his first night home with you wouldn't be classed as a medical emergency by even the most cautious of owners

I'm going to remind you of that in a few weeks time, at 3.05am...

Seriously my aunt and uncle were both vets (retired now) and the things they had brought into clinic/emergency clinic included:

Dog licked woman after perfume freshly applied - turned out she applied it to her neck and dog licked her hand.
Cat ate mouse (not kidding, owner was worried bones would block gut).
Bird was "flapping a lot" (budgie not given time out of the cage exercising its wings).
Dog ate raw brisket (apparently raw meat is poisonous).
Dog ate turkey's neck at Christmas (won't bones choke him? - is he choking? - no - when did he eat it? - 3 hours ago - erm...)
Dog is too thin, ribs showing slightly (whippet).
Cat is "licking it's bum, every day, sometimes twice!".

I could go on - we used to get regaled with these stories at every get together.  Common sense REALLY isn't that common.

Would you have gone to the vet and accepted such treatment for ONE chocolate chip? 

Most people would have PHONED their vet and then been told there was nothing to worry about. Even OOH vets will give advice over the phone.

> Even OOH vets will give advice over the phone.

Which my vets always do, and I certainly don't get charged for phoning them.  If you've been with the same vet for 35 years or more they have already judged you and judged your competence. 

I recently had a malignant tumour removed from one of my girls.  That evening she was very low in herself, not crazy as normal (she's only 5 years old.) So I put her in a crate rather than let the other dogs go nudging her scar, which was very big.  I put vetbed in the crate thinking it was less to cause any trouble.  She was rubbing and rubbing her face and neck on the vetbed.  It was hard enough to start the wound bleeding.

One phone call later it was all sorted. Fortunately I spoke to the surgeon who operated.  He said that she was itching (did tell me what drug was causing it but I forget now.)  He asked if I had any antihistamine in the house - I do know which ones you can't give to dogs.  And I did have Piriton.  He told me what dose to give, how long before I could give a 2nd dose, and told me that it would be fine after 24 hours.  I am sure that a new vet wouldn't have known me well enough to give this advice.  I would have raced to the vet if I had been told my girl needed it, but knowing your vet (and them knowing you) is extremely important.

This person did phone their vet in a panic, their vet advised that they might give 30% hydrogen peroxide to induce vomiting. They gave it several times over the following hour and the dog DIDN'T vomit (thus had effectively ingested those doses of the hydrogen peroxide). They then called again in even more of a panic and the vet advised they come in and leave the dog. The vet gave something else to make the dog vomit, and didn't see any raisins, and charged $300. The person wasn't on a forum asking for veterinary advice, she was asking how to make her husband see that accidentally dropping one raisin (which she'd bought) in a room her dog wasn't supposed to be in had seriously endangered her dog's life, since it may now develop renal failure later in life, and how to make him say/be more sorry and pay the bill (he was regarding the incident as an unfortunate but fairly minor accident and her reaction and the vet trip to be a massive overreaction to it, I'm inclined to agree with him!).

Good vets are brilliant. Unscrupulous vets will take money for dealing with panicking owners, we were told those stories too - already-dead cats "euthanised", biopsies done on already-obviously-untreatable cancers, expensive drug regimes advised when no treatment will help. If my vet suggested hydrogen peroxide for a single raisin or chocolate chip I'd seek a second opinion. What about the posts on here when an owner says something like, "my tiny toy bitch is on day 66 and the vet says to let nature take its course"? Overwhelmingly people advise a different vet or stern conversation and immediate csection. At least one such story I read the pups were lots and the vet sued. Medical type advice can cut both ways, sometimes the experts aren't the vets.

Some dogs are more sensitive than others to chocolate or raisins.  So you can look at all the figures you like, but a toy breed eating one raisin might die even if it hasn't reached the baseline toxicity level.  Same with chocolate.

From " The Dog World " newspaper . Column written by vet.

  Ingestion of chocolate:

White chocolate : No treatment required.

Milk chocolate: If 14g per kilogram of dog's body weight eaten then treatment is required.

Plain chocolate: If 3.5g per kilogram of dog's weight eaten then treatment is required

http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=133458
posted by Jeangenie about 11 years ago (3rd post down) covers most things containing theobromine including cocoa shell mulch used in the garden which many people forget about.

This list is the amounts of the various products a 10kg dog would need to ingest to require treatment. Obviously the quantities would extrapolate up or down for different sized dogs.
White chocolate: 22 kg (!!)
Drinking choc powder: 400g
Milk chocolate: 90-134g
Plain/dark chocolate: 2.5-45g
Cocoa powder: 8-38g
Cocoa beans: 5-18g
Cocoa shell mulch: 7-15g
The treatment threshold is 20mg theobromine per kilogram bodyweight.

I had trouble with a Guinea pig that I had had for about a week or so. I had taken it to the vets twice and been told it definitely wasn't mites but they didn't know what it was, and had charged me for the lack of diagnosis.
I came on here and explained the symptoms. A poster ( think it was Jean SW ) said it sounds like mites and to buy some drops for a couple of pounds from PAH. Problem solved.
I treat vets like I treat doctors - they don't know everything, so do your own research as well.

We had a whippet who ate a small amount of milk chocolate and went into seizures. So she sure didn't read any kind of tables or figures.

Even if a vet advises no treatment they are still able to advise you of warning signs, they are trained for that. Honestly some of the advice I read on forums/FB groups turns my stomach.

It certainly doesn't hurt (unless you do get some truly terrible advice) to talk about health and compare notes, but it absolutely should not replace the advice of a good vet.

Many years ago a dog of mine ate ibuprofen tablets. I found the empty bottle missing it's lid and contents, how many I didn't know as they were my husbands and he wasn't at home. I had three adult GSDs and didn't know which one had eaten them. I rang the vet in a panic. He just laughed and said I would very soon know which one as that one would throw up very soon. I had hardly put the phone down when one did and luckily brought up the bottle cap as well. No way would I not have rung the vet in this instance as I didn't know what the effect would have been. Probably a puppy would have been worse affected.

"Nobody is required to request, give or follow online advice, for some people in some situations however, i think it can be very useful."

I agree with you. Took my girl to the vets for her 2nd Canine Herpes jab and the very young vet who gave it to her said "You know that 80% of this breed have to have C-sections?" She looked like she was straight out of vet school and had been reading the text books but with no real experience of whelping, let alone in this breed. My girl had 6 pups in 6 hours - three hour gap between the first and second pup but I knew from this forum just to hold off because she was resting/not pushing or straining. I can't help thinking the young vet might just have dived straight in. (I knew from the scan, and her size, that she was expecting at least six pups.)

If someone does something because they asked on CD and were told to do XYZ and the dog died through lack of proper care will this forum take the blame ?

Somethings obviously happened that I've missed?............... But all dog sites give advice Merlot, some of it is terrible advice I agree, but there are no disclaimers on any websites to say people are talking to professionals so there should be no come back for a site, and there shouldn't be, where people look for help is up to them........... it's been going on since the internets been here. But I agree perhaps admin should put up a disclaimer for protection in this sue me for breathing world.

The trouble is many people have lost faith in their vets today, (hands up) my vet for instance is now full of young, hot off the press vets, (the older vets off opening and in, new practices ) who never seem to know what's going on, they run unnecessary tests, and put dogs/cats etc under GA's, run up bills etc, when a seasoned vet would know what to do. I have literally come out of my vets with my mouth open at what they've wanted to do, come home and treated my animals with what I knew was the right course and hey presto good as new without a £500 bill....... but I'm luckily old enough to know when these young vets are talking utter cr*p.............and unfortunately..........

I can't be the only person who is finding out that dog people know more than some of their vets today? It never used to be this way, but today a lot of vets seem to be about the money, or not being experienced enough to have a clue. (Yes, I need a new vet) I feel you're very lucky today to find that good gem of a vet. I sure miss my old one.

Yes, it can be dangerous if something is misdiagnosed, we shouldn't be doing that, I've never seen anyone doing that myself just stating what we think it may be along with experiences, a vet should be the first port of call and we generally advise that.......... but no harm in comparing what a vet thinks and what we and others may think.

From my experience lately, I can see why people will seek help here and other places, ultimately it is down to the owner, but many times we will shout out, get to your vets.

The thing you missed was someone asking for dosing clarification for an OTC giardia treatment.

Putting on the best David Bellamy voice she can muster *and we stumble across that rare gem known as common sense - a fleeting glance at this once rampant norm that is now an oddity and lesser seen since the rise in the more greater known 'utter stupidity' was introduced....

> I can't be the only person who is finding out that dog people know more than some of their vets today?

Sadly not.  9 times out of 10, I can take my dogs to the vet and tell the vet what's wrong with them before the vet's laid a finger on them.  I have successfully diagnosed thyroid problems in 4 out of my 5 hypo dogs, and then had to push to get that recognised (Dr Dodds has been a godsend for that).  In Saffi's case, the vet ran a whole load of tests, dismissed her thyroid result as normal, and it was me who spotted it - nothing else at all came up that might have explained the problem (persistent false UTIs), so the vet was out of ideas.  I pushed for diagnosis, I pushed for meds and hey presto, months of issues stopped almost overnight.

The only two times I haven't had a clue was when Paige's face swelled up, and the vet didn't know either (treatment just happened to work), and when Saffi started getting lethargic when her IMHA started.  And even then, I wasn't convinced about that vet's course of treatment and the speed at which he dropped her dose when she was stable - and that was confirmed when she relapsed.

I am forever pushing people to take their dogs back to the vet because I can see there's something wrong with them physically that's contributing to a behavioural issue, but getting the vets to see it is, most of the time, almost impossible.  It's incredibly frustrating.

So, I certainly understand why people ask for advice online - I do.  I also find that the younger vets at my practice are considerably better than the older ones - they are better at handling nervous dogs, for one thing, but they are much more on the ball and less likely to be complacent or dismissive of an issue.  Experience can be an issue with some - the one who saw Phoebe after her first collapse had literally no clue what might have caused it, when I already had collie collapse in mind.  But on the whole I find them much better than the seasoned vets.

Personally I come on an open forum like this to SHARE and perhaps even now, to learn?    Most people, I think, don't come here for veterinary advice alone.   Most forums I hang around do seem to be full of people who are looking for a 'cheap option' in terms of trying to avoid going to/paying a vet and in most cases I will give any advice based on my experience, but with the rider that I am not a vet, and if in doubt, take the dog to a vet!   I suggest that all people can do is add that caveat - 'I am not a vet and can only offer my experience so it's always best to see a vet'.

ps   I am not one, after all these years with one breed (other than my recent addition), to rush to the vet all the time.   And so there can be a degree of 'home treatment' based on experience.   In other words, I think I know when I need professional help!!!

First of all may I say that the vet I have at the moment is an absolute gem. He is an holistic vet and makes sure he knows as much as he can about each dog as an individual. When I go for their health checks it is to the dog he says hello how are you not me and my dogs adore him. They don't seem to like the walk up the corridor to his room though. BUT vets can get it very wrong. About 15 years ago, same practice but before this vet was there, I had a GSD with torsion. I knew what was wrong as a friend had a dog who had had it and had described it to me in detail, also a couple of related dogs had died from it and it can run in families. I rushed to the vets breaking speed limits all the way. The vet who knew my dog was not on duty. The one I saw insisted it wasn't torsion as, if it was, my dog would not have let him examine her due to pain. I could not get through to him that she suffered from fear aggression and would not have let a stranger near her unless there was something very badly wrong. He took her in for observation and 2 hours later rang to say she was deteriorating badly so he was going to open her up. Her stomach was totally twisted round and part of it was dead. She survived two days, seemed to be recovering and then suddenly died (she was still at the vets). So  I ended up without my dog and a big bill. She may not have survived anyway but she need not have suffered for those extra hours if he had listened.