Hello

I would be ever so greatful for some suggestions to helping my dogs.

I have 4 dogs
Milo (7 yrs, neutered, very small jack russell terrier)
Basil ( 14 month old large jack russell / neutered 3 weeks ago)
Tweak (5yrs old spayed ***** jack russell)
Edy (6 yr old neutered large jack russell)

About 9-10 weeks ago basil and milo started fighting, over seemingly nothing. Then after broken up they would go back to living together. Sleeping together. Exercising together. .. this continued and escalated to about twice a day.

We consulted with a behaviourist and started muzzle training basil (he was the one causing damage when fightinh) we put baby gates through out to separate the 2 and things calmed down for about a week-2 ..... they had exercise and mental stimulation increased. Dap diffuser. Basil was taken in to be neutered then I had the flu and was unable to do anything for 2-3 weeks inc take dogs out.

2 weeks ago they had a massive fight (the kids had left the gates open and basil wasn't muzzled) and since then they need to be 2 gates apart or fight as soon as they see each other...... I have re increased exercise. I have been working on obedience to build a strong bond with them both.

I had started counter conditioning but I'm not sure if I'm making things worse as they either want to kill each other in the same room or get away and out of the room so by forcing them to be in the same room to treat them is a stressful situation for them both.

Milo seems to be the one initiating the fights and although basil is the one who causes the bites / puncture wounds he seems to be the "nervous" one of the 2.

Edy and tweak don't get involved in the fights and basil and milo both know that edy and tweak are the biggest grumpiness out of the 4.

I know I have written this quick so if any more info needed let me know

Help please.

Thanks in advance

BUMP

Only 3 weeks since the op, does anyone know how long hormone levels take to reduce ?

If Milo starts things why are you only muzzling Basil ?

Has Milo seen a vet recently ?

Does anyone have experience of long time Alpha accepting the no.2 position ?

Fingers crossed someone will have an answer other than the obvious of re-homing Basil or Milo.

Thanks Kenny

The behaviourist said it can take up to 6 months for the hormones to reduce....

Basil is muzzled as he bites and punctures. Although milo starts is he has never had chance to bite basil as basil is always on him and over powers him. Milo is a much smaller weaker dog. ..... that said I do have 2 muzzles on order one for each dog.

Milo is not the "alpha" edy and  tweak are the dogs no one messes with and tweak in particular won't take any messing from edy too.

Both milo and basil have seen a vet and had the all clear apart from milos wounds inflicted by basil.... which are now pretty much healed 'physically'

As a quick description of an attack

Milo will grumble at basil or look at basil ..... basil stiffens (sometimes whines) then within a split second attacks.

We did have some progress last night with counter conditioning we had both boys on a lead my partner had basil at one end of our living room and I kept milo at the other end of the room..... I came in with milo and as soon as milo was in the room my partner fed loads and loads of treats to basil (I was treating milo for walking to heal with me) then me and milo left the room and my partner stopped treats...... we waited for a few minutes and repeated..... we did this about 15 times ... to the point where basil was concentrating on my partner enough to do some obediencentre with the treats with milo in the same room.

Fingers crossed!

The belief in Alpha animals in a group of dogs is flawed & based on erroneous studies of captive artificial wolf packs kept in zoos & parks.

Dogs live in social groups or alone, a truly dominant dog, does not fight or attack other dogs. It's body language is enough to subdue unacceptable behaviour & if you did have a dominant dog, these fights would not be happening.

Castration will have no effects on behaviour after puberty, it does have sometimes unwanted effect when done before the dog reaches maturity, in that it stops some dogs from "growing" up & puppy behaviour is retained.

A behaviourist who suggests physical castration in order to stop dogs fighting doesn't understand the situation. Chemical castration is faster acting than surgical intervention & if it doesn't produce the required effect isn't permanent & won't have a lifelong effect on the dog's health

I had this with a father/son combination (son not bred by me) everything fine until son hit 18 months. Continual fighting, grumbling etc. No fun for anyone, especially them. Both were ok with my other dogs, males and females.
Had son neutered to see if that made a difference, unfortunately it didn't. he just spent all day under the kitchen table growling. I had the opportunity to re-home son into a home where he is an only dog. He loves it.
Sometimes re-homing is the only option.

Chemical castration has a much higher risk or causing more aggression. ..... although neutering may have no effect on basil it may have an effect on how milo views basil.

Chemical castration has a much higher risk or causing more aggression.

Can you show me the evidence of this, as I cannot find any evidence that using Superlirin has this effect nor Tardak

Never heard of this either, suprelorin mimicks castration.. It wouldn't be on the market and used a lot if it increased aggression.

One of my dogs, then aged 8, had the Suprelorin implant.  He is normally the sweetest-natured, most laid-back chap you could hope to meet.  The first month after the implant was a shock, he fiercely attacked the adolescent pup (18 months) on a several occasions and had to be physically restrained or even crated (they were never left alone together) and was much less friendly with other dogs, although he was ok with humans.  At the end of the first month he reverted to his normal sweet nature and remained so for the rest of the duration of the implant.  I have read on other (breed specific) forums that this increase in aggression has been seen in other dogs, but not in all cases.  It is not mentioned in the drug-companies' documentation (AFIK), but seems to be caused by a surge in testosterone following the implantation, after which the levels decrease dramatically.

Yes you get a surge in hormones within the first couple of weeks and then it settles, that's always been said and nothing new.

The hormone increase is in the scientific studies, but NOT a permanent increase in aggression. However there is no scientific research that I can find that upholds Jackrussell4's statement

Yes, I saw the references to hormone surge, and nothing about aggression.  In our case it was not permanent, but lasted for a month after which he returned to normal.  IIRC the vet warned that it might happen.  However, my anecdotal observation is of course not scientific, but is supported by the (equally anecdotal) observations of other owners.

With any form of neutering there is a risk of increased aggression - lowering testosterone can trigger it, particularly in dogs prone to being nervous as it gives them a bit of "backbone".  That's an advantage of using the implant - you can see if it's going to have that effect on your dog without doing an irreversible full neuter (likewise positive changes).

But, I've never seen anything to suggest that the risk of this happening is much higher with chemical castration than with surgical.

How long have the dogs been totally separated before you started trying any training?  How long since the last fight?  How exactly are you going about the training?  It may be that they are simply too close to each other physically for progress to be made - you may need to start outside.  Has the behaviourist gone through body language to look for?

> With any form of neutering there is a risk of increased aggression ...

Nikita, I'm not sure if this is in reply to my post or to the OP's.  If it's to mine, the implant was done in December 2013 and the boys were back to normal in January 2014

It was a general comment for the discussion about aggression after implants