My new first time pet bitch is feeding and stimulating toileting, but leaves whelping box after this. Just wondering if this is ok? Puppys gaining 5-10% weight a day.
If they squeak or cry, she peers in box, and goes in and sort of whines herself then leaves. I'm keeping puppy pad on when she's not there. She seems to want to be with me more, following me around and interested in what I'm doing ( it's just me and her normally!). She is toy breed and had six pups which seems a lot!
I'm wondering how much I should encourage her in the box ( which I'm doing but not forcing ); how much I should pet her / be affectionate without her preferring to be with me even more.
My big worry is that she is ' slowly rejecting them' / will find it harder as the pups get bigger and more demanding. She's on good food, eating and drinking well.  I'm also taking her out for short walks each day to help reduce anxiety. She doesn't want to be out more than 15 mins and pulls to go back home. She sleeps in box all night with them it's just day time she seems more restless and has started digging ( sofa and door Mats). Spoke to vet who said digging is normal - creating a nest!?? Or could be phantom preg symptoms ( she had phantom preg on first season). Any comments from your experiences would be very welcome.  ( I'm also concerned that the pups aren't having enough mother nurturing in these early days to produce well rounded well adjusted puppies ). Thanks in advance.

How old is your bitch?

20 months. Second season. Two vets okayed breeding with her as small dogs mature more quickly.
Do you have experience / suggestions for me to follow regarding my queries? Ta

How old are the pups?  I'd think the digging is from after pains, the uterus contracting again...

If she were mine, I'd be sitting in the whelping box with her and the pups, so if she wants to be with me, she's with the pups...

Thanks  I won't fit in the box! But I'm in same room about 2 meters away on a chair reading ( she is in my lounge) so in full sight.
Though I like your suggestion. Thanks.

How old are the pups?

4 days.

How old is your bitch?
20 months. Second season. Two vets okayed breeding with her as small dogs mature more quickly.
Do you have experience / suggestions for me to follow regarding my queries? Ta

Yes, I do have experience.  Your bitch IS very young.  Vets are not the best sources of information when it comes to breeding.  Your little bitch is simply not sure what is expected of her.  She doesn't see (or feel?) the point of staying with the pups.  Her instincts tell her she should feed and clean them, and then she doesn't know what to do.  Help her.  Show her.  Try putting her in the box with the pups again and again, and stay with her (right next to her), praise her, feed her in the box (only!), show her you think the puppies are just wonderful!  Sometimes you may have to show her that you EXPECT her to stay with the puppies.

Where are you taking your bitch for a walk ? my friends who breed, never take their bitches out for walks whilst the bitch is still feeding the puppies, their bitches only leave the puppies to toilet, some(the bitches)are reluctant even to do that in the first two weeks. Do you have her breeder as a mentor ?

My big worry is that she is ' slowly rejecting them' / will find it harder as the pups get bigger and more demanding. She's on good food, eating and drinking well.  I'm also taking her out for short walks each day to help reduce anxiety. She doesn't want to be out more than 15 mins and pulls to go back home. She sleeps in box all night with them it's just day time she seems more restless and has started digging ( sofa and door Mats). Spoke to vet who said digging is normal - creating a nest!?? Or could be phantom preg symptoms ( she had phantom preg on first season).

She certainly doesn't have phantom pregnancy symptoms!  She's just produced the real thing!  My females go on digging and looking around outdoors under the bushes for a left-over puppy (thinking that might be possible...) for days following the birth. 

I certainly don't take my females out for walks when they've just had puppies.  For one thing, this is a good way to indicate to your little bitch that her puppies are not of much consequence (since she is leading in that direction).  You don't want to encourage this.  And not only does my female not want to leave her puppies for more than a quick pee or poop, I myself do not want to take her to places where she could bring something in to the puppies on her feet or whatever.  You must be as "hands on" as possible.  Be her partner, share her puppies with her, let her know this is serious business along with the pleasures.

Assuming she is otherwise well (was she seen after you thought she'd finished whelping - along with her puppies to make sure there were no abnormalities you missed?), she's clearly having a problem leaving aside being a pet, and being a mum.   I'd not worry overly about this, other than keeping the puppies warm - it should be around 80F in the bottom of the box - as long as she does go in to feed them when they cry (which wil probably be every 2 hours 24/7 at the momet).    You might go into the box and sit with her, encouraging her to look after her puppies.

As for walking her - be careful.   I hope you are giving her teats and feet a clean down with diluted antiseptic (not too much) in case she walks infection in.   Fact is our nursing bitches only went out to empty, on our property while nursing.

Fact is you shouldn't force any of this as long as she's feeding and attending to their toiletting and the puppies are gaining.   It would be good to have them snuggling up with her, and having the milk bar available most of the time rather than at set hours, for sure, but if she's resisting being in there don't insist - in case she does turn on them.    If this goes on, I'd make this her one and only litter - get her spayed after they are off her and gone home.

Add  "Or could be phantom preg symptoms "    What is your vet talking about!!  If he did say this ....... she's not having a false pregnancy - she has the REAL THING.  And actually this could be a symptom on not feeling very well, or frustration at not really accepting her maternal duties!

It is usually recommended that smaller breed dogs are not bred until at least their 3rd season although to be fair to the original poster, I have come across a few vets who think 2nd season is ok. Sadly most vets have no idea about breeding and therefore, it is better to have a breed mentor or someone else interested in the same breed to help advise you in matters of breeding.

As your puppies are only 4 days old, you need to stop taking your girl out on her walks. The puppies are still young enough to get chilled - even if there is a heat mat on, your girl could bring back any number of germs back with her which she is able to fight but puppies won't and she is also susceptible to something even nastier like pyo as her back end will still be fairly open.

You need to be sitting in with your litter at this stage so that your girl can learn what she has to do and take her cues from you, even if your have to sit on the floor next to the box. You should also be sleeping with them in case she squashes one, rolls over on them or leaves them and doesn't go back to them during the night (just in case you aren't already). If you feed her in with the litter, she will learn to stay put.

When she needs to eliminate, take her out into the garden, and bring her back in to the box after she is done.

The digging is most likely due to the fact that she is still in pain after the birthing and her uterus is contracting. Has she been checked out by a vet after the whelping and given a shot to clear out any remaining birthing material or missing placentas? You will need to watch the discharge now and make sure it doesn't smell offensive or change into a strange green or bright red colour - it should slowly turn a deep brown as the blood dried away.

If you have any concerns, you should seek medical advice. Hope that helps.

Hi. Thanks for that some good ideas.  Have you tried those things before. I'm just wondering if she'll see me as the one ' in charge'? And do less, what do you think? I've just fed her in here - she jumped out after. Puppies look contented tho - warm , twitching, round tummys. Will this be enough for pups to be happy. I'm following the Puppy Plan for socialisation from week 2, just worried that lack of mummy time will adversely affect them ( temperamentally ) ... Or am I reading too much into this!? I'm first time breeder too. ( annoyed if vets have misinformed me about her being ok to breed with)

> annoyed if vets have misinformed me about her being ok to breed with)

Younger than I would have litter from a bitch which is 20 months now (would have to be at least 24 months at mating) but more the thing is your vet suggesting a phantom pregnancy. Phantom means it isn't a pregnancy, your bitch had a real pregnancy...just shows how little this vet knows!!!

<She doesn't want to be out more than 15 mins and pulls to go back home.>

Sounds like she knows where she ought to be.

You have had some great advice so far.  I agree that 20 months seems too young to have a litter however, that can't be changed now and it's what you do from now that is important.  My girl had pups 2 weeks ago, this is her second litter.  She has someone with her 24/7, initially a lot of my time was spent in the box, if you can't fit in the box then you should aim to be right next to it.  My girl looks to me to be told where to lie and to get help to move the pups to the teats (of course they are getting better at doing this as they grow).  If you are right with her at the box then she will not need to choose whether to be with the pups or you.  I would not be walking her at all at this stage at all, just out to the toilet and back in to the pups.  If she has not already been checked by the vet following delivery I would suggest getting her checked to ensure that she has nothing retained. Remember also, she will need much more food than normal.

Hi. Thanks for that some good ideas.  Have you tried those things before.

I can understand your skepticism about the advice you are receiving here and your reluctance to believe that we know what we are talking about.  But you have ASKED for advice, you are a novice breeder, and I recommend that you listen to those who are giving you the advice of (up to) a lifetime of breeding!  You can follow any "Puppy Plan" you want to, but it will never give you what you are receiving here, whether you believe it or not.

Hi. Thanks all for your help and advice. This is my first time using this forum - so jut sure if I'm replying in order of reading posts tbh.
Ok. I've moved my bed right over to her box ( I've been sleeping in same room as her on the floor in mattress since just before labour started.
I've had her checked over by vet - had an internal etc. He said nothing wrong at all.
I'm feeding her in her box now.
I'll go back to just going to toilet in Garden and not walking her then for now ( I'd read a few breeders blogs saying to walk if bitch wanted as can help to relax her) and see if that also helps with getting her used to things here. 
Yes, I was going to wait til 3rd season, but as she had phantom preg on first ( so expected on second) and season was 8.5 months wrong I consulted two different vets. I had reservations myself tbh, but took vet advice.
I'm extremely grateful for all your time. I'm here home alone feeling stressed and tearful - v confusing looking up info on web etc etc. I had thought at my dog was very instinctual during pregnancy ( protecting herself ) and is such a lovely natured dog that she would really take to motherhood. Birthing went like a dream, I was so pleased. But things seem bit down hill now. Tho I must stress puppies are gaining weight and I'm keeping them warm. ( weighing daily - they all have 5-10% gain last two days - which I understand to be ok). She had six!! She's probably just overwhelmed!?
Anyhoooo, I'm so pleased to not feel so alone with all this. I've been here since last Tues - my mum has been visiting, but I'm not used to so much isolation! X

Rearing a litter well is hard work and I can't imagine doing it alone although I know a lot of people who do, each stage has it's own challenges but it does get easier and it is so rewarding. I have never come across a vet who does an internal following delivery.

Try to stay calm. What's done is done and this is a very difficult time for not just yourself but also your girl. You are doing the right thing by sleeping with her and watching over her. Yes the 1st few weeks can be very isolating but enjoy the quiet while it lasts as things will get louder, messier and smellier and keeping up with the housekeeping in the puppy area will turn into a full time assignment.

Given your vet's poor advice thus far, may I suggest you look for a different vet - maybe even one who might have some breeding experience (they are like gold dust btw)? To be honest, I am surprised that your vet encouraged a breeding at all as most vets are desperate to get you to have your pet spayed or neutered before they reach 6 months!

Instead of walking your girl, perhaps when the pups are a little older you could have gentle play time with her in your garden instead? If the digging continues, then she is obviously uncomfortable and may need another vet check. By now, you should have upped her feeding to incorporate the extra sustenance required to feed the growing pups. Everyone giving some advice has lots of experience on these matters - much more than your vet in fact so try to go with what they are telling you. Blogs and google searches will just become confusing.

As the pups are all gaining weight, I wouldn't worry too much about whether they are getting enough food. Concentrate on getting your girl comfortable with them and wanting to spend time with them. As long as she is with them and near to them it is better than not at all.

Stay positive

I think it would be well to comfort you with the fact that we ALL know what you are going through!  We ALL know the fears and dreads and worry and what if's and is this normal? and all the rest, especially as a novice breeder.  That AWFUL feeling that "something" might be wrong (I still get it often enough).  But somehow, when something really IS wrong, you tend to recognise that pretty fast.  Bells go off.

About those "walks" with the bitch to "calm her nerves":  I can't help wondering if you may have somehow understood wrong.  Because it says everywhere to take the bitch for a short walk during the birth between puppies (I never do!).  This is suppoed to be good for her and help the contractions and I forget what else.  Probably some of the breeders here indeed do this.  But I have never read about taking a bitch for walks AFTER the birth.  And why would one need to "calm her nerves" by walking.  She wants to be with her puppies. 

And yes, change your vet.  I am so terribly admiring of and grateful to vets in general, but I put little faith in them concerning two things:  normal canine births and canine nutrition.

Some excellent advice given. Definnately stop the walks for reasons stated above. Her instinct is telling her she should be with the puppies hence the wanting to go home after a short time. One of my girls did not leave the box for a pee or ppop for 48 hours after her puppies were born. Think she must have a bladder the size of a small car lol. Some bitches are natural mums, some are not. If she is feeding and cleaning them  they will be fine. She is probably a little confused as she is quite young and just following her instinct . Don't worry too much as this may be passed to your girl. Enjoy your new family and hopefully she will do the same. Good luck and keep us informed.

One more thing: I would not give up on your bitch and have her spayed just because she does not seem to take to motherhood as naturally as might be wished.  I would attribute this primarily to her immaturity.  I bred a female of mine some years back so that she had her first litter at about 20 months.  Like your female, she fed and cleaned her puppies and then just left them lying there.  But she had two litters thereafter and was a perfect mother both times!  Your little bitch has produced a huge litter of (I assume) perfect puppies, and that is worth a second try!

Hi. Thanks for the suggestion of staying right by the box and really encouraging her to stay there. I've had a much better afternoon

Do try not to worry, bitches do vary as to their attitude to their puppies, as long as they are warm and gaining weight, quiet and full tummies then they will be fine, you are doing a good job, your instincts seem to be spot on, feed the mum well and try weaning the babies a few days early if you think they are not getting enough but they should progress normally

I have a lot of experience with whelping toy breeds.  I was horrified that you turn the heat pad off!  Pups are unable to regulate body temperature.  If they are too cold then they cannot absorb nutrients from the bitch and could die.  My bitches dig from pain, it's what they do.  Breeders of larger breeds don't need the same amount of heat.  Think how many toy breeds need a coat when taken for a walk in the winter.  (No I don't dress my Chihuahuas up.)  Most of my bitches like the heat pad on for 6 weeks, no problem as pups can't be homed until 12 weeks.

My girls are not taken outside the house for walks.  I am fortunate in having a huge enclosed garden if they want to run around.  Normally I have to drag them from the whelping box to have a wee.  I do make sure that they don't have distractions, no noise from TV etc until pups are running around.  With toy breeds you do get extra time for teaching them to ignore a noisy washing machine etc.  I assume that you are sleeping with her so that no pups get crushed at night?  She does sound to have had an enormous litter for a toy.  Stay as close as possible to her whelping box if you can't get in with her.

> and try weaning the babies a few days early

I don't know what breed the OP has, but this suggestion on weaning is an emphatic no with my breed.  My bitches are still nursing pups well after 8 weeks.  Once pups have been given their meal, my pups go in with them to have a suckle. So weaning very tiny breeds early can be a bad idea.  My breed club upholds keeping the pups for 12 weeks before homing anyway.

Fully agree with JeanSW. Would also like to add that the smaller toys should not have a problem being mated at 18 months and giving birth at 20 months.  They will be far more mature than a larger breed (even a larger toybreed) and will stop growing much sooner than larger breeds. Wait too long and you could have serious problems giving birth instead.

I'm also concerned that the pups aren't having enough mother nurturing in these early days to produce well rounded well adjusted puppies ). Thanks in advance.

Do you have The Book of the Bitch?  If not, get it right away.

BTW, the nurturing you are presently concered about (during the first two weeks) has, as far as I am informed, little to nothing to do with socialisation later on, but only with survival and physical development.

Sorry, I was not clear in my post, I didn't mean to start taking the mother away from the pups which I never do, I let her come and go as she pleases right up until the puppies leave, I was rather saying to try the puppies with food a few days early if the OP feels that they are not being adequately fed by mum

Thanks for sharing that experience with me. Things are looking better. Yep big litter, puppies putting on weight every day - somewhere between 5-10%, which ive read is pretty  normal?    Still a bit of digging, but six pups for small dog, probs means a v extended uterus and now it's taking some time contracting. She is staying in box when I encourage her and responding to their squeaks. So not a bad mum TG

Thanks. X

I'm sure the pain or discomfort she was in, that was making her dig around, was also affecting her maternal/mothering abilities - now the pain is subsiding, she will probably pay more attention to the pups, I'd hope?