Arg guys, disaster.... And advice needed!

Had a call from Larry at Idexx (who vet consented to give us result from) with the news that her progesterone result yesterday was only 4.9nmol.

So she's still a way off, as ovulation is 17-18nmol and then eggs need 2-3 days to mature. So she clearly is just a floozy.

He's advised to retest Thursday and says that would be v safe as there's no way she could rise that fast....

But we are not sure we want to blood test again after the last time....

Our stud dog owner is recommending a great cytology person she uses who has only had 2 misses in 26 litters. Results immediately.

Or we could just breed as late as we currently have planned (Sat AM at 8am) and hope that covers her for 5 days after that.  If we do anything later than Sat at 8am, it's going to mean changing ferry and rescheduling stuff next week - and extending accommodation....

Aargh.

I think I'd take your stud dog owner's advice and try their person.

I think Saturday will be fine but I would also use the person stud's owner recommended

Agree :)

Guys, please let me know if there's something I haven't figured out here...

1.  Sperm lives for (usually) 5 days, right?  So the mating today - if anything is going to happen any time soon - is going to cover everything up till Saturday - well, Sunday really.  So doing anything before then, is a bit pointless...right?  Is that reasoning right?

2.  Second, to revise what I said above, the eggs take 2 days after ovulation to be ripe for fertilisation - so if she's no where near ovulation, even, yet, then we're even further away from 2 days post-that.  (??)

3.  Her eggs have to ripen before his sperm dies(!?).  Sperm lives for 5 days, (poss 7, but let's say 5!) and eggs take 2 days to ripen and are then around for 2 more.  So if there was a mating, say, Sat morning we are actually not covered up till Day 21 - we are really only covered till Day 19. 

The stud dog owner is saying we should do cytology Thursday morning and mate Thursday, and that dogs don't usually keep standing forever and it's best to get another mating in soon before she doesn't stand - and also that eggs ripen in 24hrs and are ovulated in waves... but all that seems to fly in the face of science.  Surely Thursday is covered by today's mating and it's best to be later??  Not only do we have to wait for ovulation but for 2 days after that, for the eggs to ripen - the sperm has to still be around, by then.  (Right?)

I'm just totally confused.  We only get one more pop at this.  (Kinda wishing we hadn't had a mating yet, now, as then we'd still have 2 matings to use :( )  And we wouldn't be £500 down...

If this dog has been used a fair few times he will know when a bitch is ready and she wont generally allow a mating unless she's ready either. I would get the cytology done and consider a mating in the next few days depending on what that says

If we get the cytology results, we'd do this Friday morning.  Because I'm assuming we're covered till then, by what happened today?? 

So we could have a mating Fri at 2pm (stud dog availability!) or Sat at 8am, but then we'd have to leave and drive rapidly to the ferry and then a 4.5 hr ferry - not sure if that would be too stressful immediately after mating - or best to do as late as possible!  She didn't seem that stressed by the mating, she quite seemed to enjoy it!

The dog is very experienced and she was very willing - and the stud dog owner examined her and said she was wide open inside...   Is Idexx ever wrong?! arg.

Idexx has been wrong for me and again if the blood taken is wrong like my friend said it can affect the results.
Do the cytology and see what the results show and go from there. I got a repro vet to draw blood and progesterone test and the stud owner did cytology and they matched up.

'Is Idexx ever wrong?'

In my experience ,yes, it is. I'm sure I written about this before on the forum . We had a girl brought to my boy following Idex testing. Lab had said mate today so the bitch owner duly brought her along. No way was she ready. I know this girl and she will not be mated until she is. We kept her with us and 8 days later she made it perfectly clear that she was ready. Nine pups were born on 63 rd day from first mating. I've had identical experiences with two other girls brought to my boy. A case of a laboratory test that may have no relevance or what ?

When the lab said 'mate today', Jan, was that an 'ovulation happened' result, or an 'ovulation pending'?!

Trust the science - serum progesterones can't be wrong. Bitches may not want mating or may not get in whelp but they have ovulated have know in house progesterone be way off - by as much as 10 days

Don't panic ... You have a strumpit and this is why testing is so important. Have had bitches here that would stand from day 5 - 28 !
So blood test Monday was just under LH surge - so reasonable estimate is ovulation late Wed / Thursday so mating late Fri / Sat would be my choice if only have one more attempt.
Personally would run a progesterone as far more accurate than cytology - IME cytology can reduce need for early blood test and then test when getting close
As discussed before I had to set off to Germany at LH surge - my reading was a bit higher but we worked on 2 days to ovulate plus 2 and got a litter so even if you don't want to test a Fri pm or Sat mating would be my call xx

Thanks klb!!  You were so brave to head off to Germany like that :)  Also, I keep having to remind myself that this result was taken yesterday morning (4.9nmol), so for all we know, she has gone further and had the LH surge now...  Maybe hence the strumpet behaviour! 

The thing is, looking at this table:Progesterones

0-2 Nmol or 0- 0.6ng   Baseline

3 - 6 Nmol or 0.9 - 1.8ng minimum two days to ovulation but could persist for up to a week. Minimum estimated breeding 4-6 days

7 -12 Nmol or 2.2 - 3.7ng minimum one day to ovulation. estimated breeding window 3 -5 days

13 - 18 Nmol or 4 - 5.6ng ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2-4days

19 - 31 Nmol or 5.9 - 9.7ng ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1-3 days

32 - 64 Nmol or 10.6 - 20.2ng Ova mature Optimum fertility. Estimated breeding window 0 - 2 days

65 - 90 Nmol or 20.4 - 28.3ng ova mature but ageing, decreased fertility. Breed at once

90Nmol plus or 28.3ng plus - too late 

It says "*minimum* estimated breeding 4-6 days" - so I guess that worried me that we would really only be serving the minimum, if we mated Saturday.  But that table also makes no mention of the LH surge or the role of that....??

PS klb - do you think there is any point to doing the cytology on Friday morning?  Or is that result not going to be that valid, and we should skip that and just go with a mating Fri at 2pm or Sat at 8am (that's the stud's availability)...?  And keep everything crossed?!

The charts work on averages and given your bitches progression she looks average so I think your ball park ok.
As you say semen for fertile male can live for five days plus so your mating today potentially covers to Sat and a further mating late Friday / Sat would cover to wed/ Thursday ( based on averages again ) For a natural mating this  should be perfectly OK

There is no harm in doing cytology it is easy to do and might reassure you that she has ovulated - evidence of cornified cells
As your plans are fixed would mate late Friday / early Saterday either  way and then a four week stressful wait
Have some wine and try and chill X

Okey dookey!!!  We could theoretically extend our stay, which would not be amazing to do, but would be preferable to ending up with no puppies :)

Thanks!!

The LH surge triggers ovulation and occurs when progesterones jump to approx 1.8 - 2ng
Ovulation typically 24 - 48 hrs later so with a reading 1.5ng on Monday I would anticipate ovulation on typical,bitch at Wednesday.
IF You could have waited it out would have retested Wednesday and expected an ovulation reading for anticipated mating between Fri and Sun

IF She is one of those girls that hovers at sub ovulation for a few days ( some do ) she will still be too soon BUT that would be outside of the average.
Labs reports are cautious until they see ovulation to cover the girls that Buck the trend hence the words minumum and recommend re test - sometimes that isn't possible

Just to add - if you do go ahead with cytology test, the results are instant and you should know there and then.

Fingers crossed for you x

I did premate kept getting ovulation imminent for 4 days, she was standing from the second premate day 8 and also I was getting ferning in saliva so on Day 10 I took her to stud they tied within minutes, I think premate was wrong, my girl is due any day with minimum of 7 pups!

Emmagx, thanks, was that in-house premate (where they look at the colour change?) or was it Idexx - was it sent off to an external lab?

It was in house premate, to be honest 3 different vets did them they had no experience with them what so ever! On the 10th day 4th premate, she said it's changed colour slightly just not enough, I don't trust them to be honest! My dog is pregnant only because I didn't listen to the premate and went to stud anyway, try the saliva thing though I got obvious ferning on day 8 and she was flagging at my male, I think I missed a few days of her cycle so she was possibly on day 10-12 as she came out of heat on my day 17

I think the in house premates are very unreliable. Barbara said she's known them to be out by 10 days on another recent thread here, somewhere! Idexx is reliable though...:)

I won't use them again, my vets said indexx would take 48hours to come back, there useless! I asked for a scan 2 weeks ago, just a scan they refused and said the vet wants to see her and charge me £35 haha! I refused obviously and went else where

I live on an island and was originally told it would take 48hrs to get Idexx results but it turned out to take only end of next day. Test 9am and result by 4pm next day.

Part of the reason it can sometimes run into the next day, I think, is that vets have to check the result & contact the client. What vets who are new to progesterone testing don't realise, is that they can give consent for the client to call for the result. Then the client can start to call the lab from 4pm - instead of waiting for the vet to check emails & phone client with results (which often does run into next day). 

So I'd say - assume you can get results by 4pm next day and insist vet gives consent for you to get result.

Sorry about delay in replying. Answer is not sure . I do acknowledge that some bitches are indeed strumpets  -one forum member has described 'would flag for a camel' . But this experience of the lab saying one thing and the girl being way off readiness for mating has happened at least three times .I have never done IDEX testing nor any other ovulation testing in 15 years of breeding. The only time a girl 'missed' was when the stud dog, my lovely Paddy had ( inexplicably ) become infertile.

Good Luck !

> My dog is pregnant only because I didn't listen to the premate and went to stud anyway,

Depending on when the pups are born it could be the premate was correct but the bitch fell pregnant from semen that had lived to the time she was ready.

I'll be interested to see what day she whelps as they normally go 63+/- a day from ovulation.

I've had a temp rise to 100.4 yesterday morning and drop to 98.4 by 10pm last night it was still 98.6 this morning and now on the rise again, I think she'd ovulated 1-2 days before mating happened (Saturday or Sunday)when premate was saying ovulation imminent, but saliva was ferning fully Saturday which would mean eggs were ready and fertilised when mated on the Monday, tomorrow she's day 60-61 so I'm waiting to see if anything happens later,
She's had a lot of mucus come away this morning to,
It would be interesting because it may mean premate was out and saliva was right, I'll update if anything happens

I have signs of puppies soon, just posted on another subject, 63 days today, panting and pacing intermittently digging in her bed, not a happy bunny! Started well I spotted her panting around 3pm, had some panting yesterday but only happened once for 18minutes, she's in her box I've had to cover it otherwise she was going under my bed, a lot of thick clear mucus, she keeps going to sleep but wakes up wants the toilet starts panting and digging, so who was right? The premate said not ready on the day I mated her, I do think the vets had never used them before though, I also think saliva test for ferning was correct 2 days before first mate I had ferning which means ovulating...long night for me I want to meet these puppies haha

You see this is where science can complicate matters.    I'd never used all these 'aids' - I just mated my girls when they were visually ready (both of them) and waited the 62 - 63 days.   If there was any distress before the due date, obviously I'd get a vet involved.   If they went over by more than 2 days, with no sign of anything really starting, then it was off to the vet for an examination, and depending on the situation, probably an oxytocin shot.  

All I can say is once she has strong contractions don't leave her for over 1 hour without seeing a puppy delivered, each delivery.  Which you probably know about already.   And don't let her go more than a couple of days over - there's no need and as the puppies that just 'sit' will be growing bigger by the day, frankly they need to come out, or risk them being too big = a C.Section.

Also and again I'm sure you know, if she wants out during the night, don't let her off her lead - go with her at least or she may well drop one out there.

It all stopped! Panting pacing digging....it went on for 7 hours until 9.30pm then nothing, her temperature has been low for days between 36.8 and 37.1 finally yesterday it shot up to 37.7, as it all stopped and she's 64 from first 62 from 2nd I've taken her to the vets at 9.30 this morning there running progesterone test should know by 3.30, there worried she's not progressed, at the mo I'm praying for higher than 2 as vet mentioned c-section :(

Oh no, I hope everything is ok!

> It all stopped!

Inertia?   Had she been mine and 2 days over the due date, much as if possible an oxytocin shot might have been relevant (only if like mine, it was secondary inertia) to get things moving, it's quite possible that C.Section is going to be your only option especially if the puppies are now big - meaning she may not be able to deliver them naturally in any case.

Good luck.

I think we are fine! Progesterone at 23nmol/l which I think is around 7ng, which means she is not stuck in first stage, does anyone know anything about progesterone levels I'm sure that would indicate no labour for quite a few days, had a rise to 37,6 last night and dropped to 36.8 for most of today, odd panting sessions and I'm 99% sure she has just peed on my bed.

Reverse progesterone testing :
Progesterone drops as the dam gets ready to whelp. Here are the levels you need to watch for:
a. > 5.0 ng/ml—at least 24 hours will pass before the onset of labor.  You should run another progesterone test in 24 to 48 hours.
b. 3.1 to 5.0 ng/ml—whelping is close but the bitch is not in active labor.  You should run another progesterone test in 24 hours.
c. 3.0 to 2.6 ng/ml—the bitch is not in active labor but it is safe to do a c-section if her due date has arrived and she has other signs of labor, e.g., nesting, anorexia or a temperature drop.
d. <2.5 ng/ml, your bitch is in active labor and pups should arrive in 18 and 36 hours.

Right turns out her results are on ng at 23.7! That's high for a dog between 62-64 days?! I'm confused? He said they need to drop to 2 but thinks she's close? Maybe I miss heard him but I asked twice, that high there normally half way through pregnancy.....! I've taken her for a quick stroll around my street to get her moving, her poop was a bit runny early, the only reason I assumed it was 7 as I thought it was 23nml which converts to 7ng

Progesterone levels in pregnacy remain elevated to maintain pregnacy.  Typically you see sudden drop from approx 3 day pre labour to 5-10ng and at 2ng you should see start labour

She's now refused food and Hiden it, temp 36.5 it's been low all day, she's fast off though haha

I've experienced quite a few births with primary inertia.  Many ended in a C-section.  I don't know anything about all those progesterone levels, I resemble MamaBas in this.  No vet of mine (and Switzerland is not exactly a third-world country) has ever suggested measuring progesterone when I have been waiting endlessly for the stage two contractions to finally start (stage one having been more than obvious for hours and hours).  What they ARE concerned about is measuring the heart-beat frequency of the puppies.  Just last October this resulted in a C-section, as one of the puppies was really starting to go downhill.

The birth of Nimue's puppies last Thursday started with a drop in temperature (from around 37'5° to 36'9°).  Thereafter it took 22 hours until the first contractions became visible.  And then she delivered 5 puppies in 90 minutes, her first litter.

I have never experienced a birth process such as the one you describe here.  I don't want to upset you, but I would be truly concerned about the welfare of the puppies.  I don't know what your breed is (if I may say so, I think this rule often has a negative effect on information which might be pertinent), so I don't know if you are awaiting 3 puppies or 12, but I do think you better go back to the vet.
I know we should be "patient" and "wait".  Patience is certainly a virtue, but waiting forever can result in tragedy.  Sometimes.  It's a tightrope between respecting nature and knowing when assistance is called for.  Not easy...  I do hope to read soon that all your puppies have arrived and they and their mother are doing well!

Any update? How many days is she past her due date from.first mating and also subsequent ones? Is she the breed in your avatar? Large working breed?

> I have never experienced a birth process such as the one you describe here.  I don't want to upset you, but I would be truly concerned about the welfare of the puppies.  I don't know what your breed is (if I may say so, I think this rule often has a negative effect on information which might be pertinent), so I don't know if you are awaiting 3 puppies or 12, but I do think you better go back to the vet.<br />I know we should be "patient" and "wait".  Patience is certainly a virtue, but waiting forever can result in tragedy.  Sometimes.  It's a tightrope between respecting nature and knowing when assistance is called for.

I couldn't agree more.    Science can help, but again I'm a more hands-on kind of gal and if my bitches went over by more than 2 days, regardless of any stats. I'd be off to the vet and probably having a C.Section done.   The longer you delay, waiting for the 'right readings', the more risk to your bitch and her puppies.    Mine is a breed (bloodline?) that tended to go to secondary inertia - the moment it was 'ouch mum', it went to 'you put them there, you get them out.   So I did!

She's in labour! Started at 5.45am heavy panting shivering, yes she's the breed in avatar, apparently there's 7 puppies I'm with her no straining yet she doesn't want to go to the toilet either....also it's her birthday!! Shes 2 days over first mate and smack bang on 63 for 2nd, exciting!!!

Wonderful!  Let us know how it all turns out!

Any news?

Omg! Hopefully she's finished, I called vet at 3pm today as still in stage 1 they told me to take her straight in for c-section I refused as she wasn't in any distress no discharge no straining so I said I'd update at 6pm and decide, 6pm water bag bulging so I waited, 40 mins later nothing then thick green discharge!!!! I called him back he said get to me ASAP, I walked her around first then straight into the car, vets are 20mins away, 2 mins away from vets I noticed a bad appear!! My partner pulled up blocking the road and she delivered 1 puppy...alive!!! Yay!! Took her home, 2nd puppy wasn't coming out, she kept straining so once again I was getting ready to go back, sat her up first and it came straight....:) then no. 3,4,5,6,7 and 8 followed haha 8 was born about 20mins ago so I'm watching just incase I get another surprise as I thought there was 7, so pleased I held off with the c-section!

Hey Emmagx, I've just joined the forum so I can say congratulations on your new arrivals, I'm glad things went relatively well in the end. 

I've been a bit of a voyeur for the past 5 weeks, this last week or so I've been keeping up to date with yours and rabids (I think that's right) posts.   But today I have been on a lot waiting for your news.

I'm in a similar position I've got my first litter due soon, so you may be of some help to me in the near future.

Well done once again

It is an amazing story and reminds us once again that no two births are ever the same.  I know I would not have been able to hold out against a c-section despite what the vets were telling me, but it is interesting and admirable that you did so, especially since the pups and Mum are all fine!  Whew!  You've got stronger nerves than I do! 

I know everyone is happy for you, and I hope the well-deserved champagne hits the spot!

Yes, congratulations and well done.
I helped deliver a litter last September it was simultaneously the most amazing and most terrifying thing I've ever encountered. Our little (not so little now) secondhand boy is from the litter

Congratulations Emmajx and well done! I've been a nervous wreck for you just reading the thread - enjoy your lovely puppies x

Mum and pups all doing well this morning, I think she struggled on a few as her breed average pup size is between 12-16oz one I weighed is 18.5oz so a big girl haha! I've never been so worried my partner was brill and calm! I just felt the vet was rushing to caesarean before the green discharge there was no really need first stage had gone on for 9 hours, my car though is a mess! Haha after the first 2 they are came out easy

Well done to mum and pups, and not forgetting her human parents : )

Glad to hear all has gone well & congratulations on your safe arrivals. I'll close this thread now but of course a new one can be started if further advice is needed