Hi,
I want to learn about different methods to train dogs. I'm not talking about "how to teach the sit", but what methods/equipment have you all used? Have you tried different methods? Which ones worked for you and which ones didnt? Have you ever used a prong collar/electric collars etc ? How did you get on with them?
There are sooooo many people who post here and I'm sure between us, we've read every single dog training book there is. Maybe you'd like to discuss them?

Josh_
EDIT....it would be also nice to hear of any trainers that you really admire.

Hi Josh,
I reckon the best way to teach the "sit" is shown in "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey. It's worked with every dog (even the most dense!!:)) that I've ever tried it on! For most things, her methods work. The only "equipment" I've ever had to resort to has been a Halti, which has been a godsend even when not attached to a lead! Just put it on a dog and it seems to walk to heel! My breed is dalmatians, and a stern voice is enough to reduce the toughest "big boy" to jelly! Anything that causes physical pain would drive them completely scatty and they'll never learn anything.

>I reckon the best way to teach the "sit" is shown in "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey<

which way is that?

Gwen Bailey's method of teaching the "sit" involves holding a titbit just above your (standing) pup's nose. Holding it tightly so he can't get it, you move the titbit up and back towards his tail - his nose will follow it, and his bottom will go down. If he jumps up for it, the titbit is too high - if he backs off, it's either too low or you're moving it too fast. As soon as he is in the sit position, give him the titbit and lots of praise. Incorporate the "sit" command when he has started sitting when you hold the titbit above his nose. Even a terminally dense pup will learn this quickly!

Good tip: Never confuse the pup by saying "Sit down" instead of "Sit" if you are going to use "Down" as the command for the lying down position.

I like (and try) to use mainly positive training, clickers/rewards etc (and for the most part it works). Sometimes though, for certain situations, different dogs, you do need a little compulsion (but what I like to call positive compulsion ;) )
My four yr old GSD is trained mostly positively and you can tell. He's always eager to learn/please, where as my girl does things because you ask and not necessarily because she wants to.
When I'm training them seperately, I use regular rolled leather collars but......put them together for normal walks, and their competetivness to 'each other' comes to the fore...that's when I use.... 'shock/horror'... prong collars!!!!
Yes, I'm in the UK! Yes, I've been berated more than a few times (and that's mild) for them. I've had to prove with pic's what so called 'gentle leaders' do to my dogs (turns them into violent, uncontrolled and in danger of harming themselves, fighting dogs) as opposed to the prong collars that have them calm and me in control.
It's not a crime to be open minded about training. What works for one dog won't necessarily work for another. Knowing what helps your own dogs goes a long way to help training them, IMO :)

P.S
Just read your comments, Josh, about the prong in the other thread....all I can say is, IMO, they are not as bad as they look (yes I have had it around my neck) and I believe that for *my* dogs, they're certainly kinder than a choke or head collar :)

When I got into BSD's, I used check chains the first year - and put lots of work into training them, but soon realised there was no need for them, and putthem on rolled leather collars. I had fingertip control but the interestgin thing wasa that they responded so well to my voice. I can honestly say I never used any physical punishment on them and very rarely had to raise my voice, in fact i used tone/pitch rather than volume and relied on this and constant repetiton with oodles of praise. They were very spirited and not easydogs, they are not recommended as a first dog for example, but they really wanted to do as i asked. Such a bond grew between us that to be honest, to have phyusically punished them in any way would have really broken me.

Then I waited a year, and along came my current Terv, Banya. Now she was the top puppy in her litter, and at 24 hours old I saw her crawling all over her dam and littermates whilst the others were snoozing. She is a real live wire, challenging, (not to me, but due to her character), and often has her own agenda. She is clever and smart.

What i am trying to do now, is to put all i have learnt down the line into practice with her, to prove to muself, if you like, that purely positive training does work.In any type of competition, and with a difficult dog. Positive does't mean "permissive", as the dog must still do as you ask, but it is all very relaxed. As an example, I am shaping her to do something, and she will break off to have a drink of water. As a clicker trainer i know that is normal and means she has been working hard, and usingher brain :) so she is not "bad" to go off and do this. Besides she comes straight back and we carry on.

She is the first dog i have used the clicker on, and i am thrilled with results. I have used the clicker to stop behavioural problems with her, from chasing bikes to mugging people, and although she often moves the goalposts, we are moving steadilly forwards. I am really excited about what we are achieving :) If she gets silly over something, at the endof the day it is her character, and I simply lower the criteria until she does what is wanted. So I may make the exercies shorter, or whatever, to help her to succeed. At the end of the day, if she doens't get stuff right, I haven't been communicating what i want properly, it is up to ME to be clever and help her.

I am still fairly new to training for competition, and all the dedication it requires. I wish for example i had started her tracking when a pup, done more earlier. Next time i will ;)

Her biggest problem is staying still, (the AKC says that Belgians are always in motion unless under command) and so it has been hard to get the Down Stay perfected, as for trials you need a 12 minute Down Stay out and about, to be sure of 10 minutes actually at a trial. I now have this, with distractions, but still need to work to make it absolutely proofed.

I do use "punishment" but it is never physical.....I will use voice inflection, or put her back in the car if she barks too much, that sort of thing. I don't punish her during training or for not understanding. I dont actually "correct" her in the accepted sense. She understands the car thing, because i walk her there with a slightly firmer hold on her collar. Just that makes so much difference.

I have gone through times with her when I have been, just for a few days, almost despairing, but now at the age of 21 months it is all really coming together. NOt bad for a bitch with the attention span of a gnat when she was much younger (genetic inheritance ;)).

Help I've forgotten your original question.....trainers i admire are my own for her patience and understanding (we are having an agility blip at the moment!) and my WT trainer for her - patience and understanding!! LOL! Also I greatly admire and have learnt from: John Fisher (my hero), Peter Neville(brilliant and also approachable), Sarah Whitehead, Gwen Bailey, Burch and Bailey, the Coppingers, Barbara Woodhouse, (yes really!<g>), Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar, David Appleby, Kay Laurence, Nina Bondarenko, Jean Donaldson (a woman for the 21st century and beyond) and Sheila Booth because her progression and learning has been so revealing to me.

Did you ask for books? I highly recommend Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash" and "Dogs are from Neptune", also any of Ian Dunbar's videos and books, Sheila Booth is a lady very special to me as she trained Schutzhund and co-wrote "Schutzhund Training In Drive" but then went on to write "Purely Positive Training." after changing her methods. Really really interestgin and i have learnt a fair bit from it for competition, but it is a super book for anyone, and reasonably priced, too :)

I could actually discuss this for ever, so I had better stop or this will get way too long :) :D

Lindsay

I'm getting my student grant in next month, I'll definately be investing in sme of those books. Thanks for the recommendations!
By the way, what does a rolled leather collar look like? Sophie wears something like it, but i dont know if its the same thing.

>I could actually discuss this for ever, so I had better stop or this will get way too long<

Please carry on.
Josh_

<<<what does a rolled leather collar look like>>>

This link should show you what they look like. They're very soft (but strong) and ideal for not spoiling the fur :)

http://www.schaafleatherwork.com/pages/dog/collar2.html

Oh NICE ONE!!!! Thats what she wears!! She used to have a nylon one, youknow, the ones with the buckle, and they were great, but when she got bigger, and the diameter of the collar increases so did the width. The new one was too thick and kept rubbing away her fur, so I thought I'd get her a "rolled" collar.

YOu may also be interested in the book "HOw Dogs Learn" by Burch and Bailey, they discuss the history and the use of all methods in a scientific manner including the use of punishment, and basically says it should only be used as a last resort, but explain why from a scientific angle. It's very interesting, I learnt a lot from reading it.

Thank you...yet another book to go onto my list

I was speaking to someone in the pet shop the other day and he said that a prong collar worked really well on his aggressive dog. I dont object to the use of them by someone who know what they're doing, but for a socalled "expert" to tell someone he's never met to put a prong collar onto a dog (that's he knows nothing of) and give him a Level 10 correction (which is the hardest pull/yank (whatever) you can give, is I think VERY irresponsible !!!

Id like to put it on him and give him a level 10
Tracey

:)
I hope thats in a "your a bad dog trianer" sort of way and not other sort of way....if you know what I mean!!!
:)

For those who do not know what Prong & Pinch Collars are, please click the link.

Regarding training in general, it occurred to me that most dogs only get attention when they're misbehaving, so we are probably inadvertedly encouraging the very behaviour we don't want! I'm as guilty of it as the next person - when our dogs are lying quietly in their bed or by the fire, they generally get ignored. How often do they get praise and rewards for just being good? When we are out walking, and they're being very good, not pulling or stopping to sniff, how often do they get praise? Or do we only speak to them to reprimand?

Just my (slightly confused) musings! :)

They don't sound like confused musings to me, Jeangenie...I'd say they were 'spot on'.
My dogs are rewarded all the time for good behaviour....it's the little things that count and add up! Like keeping out of the way while I'm cooking, lying quietly while you're watching tv, not taking the cats head off when he strolls past your feed bowl ;)
I'm afraid I'm one of 'those' who talks to her dogs all the time....one of these days, they will answer me back :D

I think Jeangenie's musings are spot on too, Jacqui - it IS the little things that count and I always praise Banya for just relaxing, as that is her hardest "thing" :D :p :o

Re the prong collars, do you just literally put them on and find that they keep both dogs under control - that is how i am reading it, and that you do'nt use them for any "correction"?

I agree with Josh, using them to jerk really hard is not on, as apart from any other argument, it means that the dog is in danger of physical trauma. Off the top of my head I have heard about a dog's oesophagus being pierced with misuse of a prong collar. Although they are bluntish, I can imagine this happening with force.

I understand the problem with headcollars - i have seen so many dogs wearing them happily and it does transform their owners lives, but I have also seen unhappy dogs and even thogh I introduced one calmly and slowly to my bitch, she got more and more stressed over a 2 week period and so did I so I ditched it. I would still recommend them but perhaps more cautiously than in the past ;)

Lindsay

You're reading it right, Lindsay...No corrections 'at all'....the collars just 'go on' :)
The reason I ended up opting for these collars was (believe it or not) to stop my dogs from injuring themselves and maybe me along the way.
I used to walk one of these GSD's with a different GS and a BC, all on the same side, no problems at all :) The BC and the (m) GS unfortunately died...along came my current (m) GSD with my original (f) GSD. The competition between these two is on one hand a nightmare and on the other (when it comes to training the younger) a blessing. Walked seperately they're both obedient and well mannered, wouldn't dream of pulling, they even walk to heel off lead with and without distractions of other dogs....together however, the competitiveness overides all their training.
Being only 5 ft (an' a bit) with two big dogs could be an accident waiting to happen. Rolled collars, nylon, checks etc were no use for walking them together as I believe they cause just as much damage even without corrections. Headcollars and Halti's turned them into thrashing, writhing maniacs (turned on each other a couple of times, too) and actually damaged the nerves in one of the dogs noses. Soooo, for ages I walked them seperately. When you have two dogs, there's no fun in that.
That's when I decided I had nothing to lose by trying the prong collars. I'd read a lot about them on various sites and once I'd got over the shock of the look of them, I decided to order them.......The moment those collars went on, you could just tell both dogs respected them (only way to describe it). If you can imagine being on a very forward horse, all the energy underneath you and raring to go, that's what it was like (and still is)....the dogs both seemed to self correct themselves within seconds of the collars going on...no pulling/corrections from me at all :)
I've used them ever since (about 12 months now) but only when the dogs go out together...like I say, seperately they're both fine.
Maybe I have got a little lazy in the fact that I'm sure I could have trained this out of them by now, but, I walk them sometimes late at night, sometimes in an area with lots of latchkey dogs, etc, etc. They give me peace of mind knowng that should anything happen, I'm thoroughly in control of my dogs even if others aren't. *If* (big one) my dogs decided to lunge at a cat, dog, whatever, I'd be flatout in seconds. With these I know I'm in control :)

BTW, any collar (IMO) should never be used to jerk a dog with. When I hear or read of 'levels of correction', it makes my stomach turn at the thoughts :(

I have used the prong collar and found it works great. If fitted properly it does not hurt the dog at all. I was told not to use any type of correction collar for any dog under the age of 7 months because the glands on their neck may be swollen due to teething and u can hurt ur pup. Their was a thread awhile back on correction collars don't know where it has gone unless I'm not looking in the right spot.

ttfn :)

I thought that was how you used them Jackie :) it's interesting how your 2 current dogs react but I can totally see that from the way you describe. (I'm sure I've seen pictures of them on your website, but can't see the address now - they are lovely from what i remember.)

I was going to ask if you found that walking them with the prong collars on had made a difference to their walking generally, but then I suppose you wouldn t be able to tell because they walk well under normal conditions.

<<Maybe I have got a little lazy in the fact that I'm sure i could have trained this out of them by now....>>
If you ever get the time it would be interesting to hear how you got on :) I'm sure you could do it <g>.

I agree that no collar should be used to jerk a dog with, and as you say, imagining this level 10 correction is horrific. I know they use both prongs and e collars a lot in the US, I have an acquaintance who has just got back from there to study training and she had to walk out of one class :( There were 4 classes going on at once, and all lthe dogs were being jerked on prongs and checks, and strung up, and even little Italian Greyhounds were on check chains. Yet in other ways these dogs are pampered silly. Its an odd world sometimes.

<<<but then I suppose you wouldn t be able to tell because they walk well under normal conditions.>>>

That's right, they do....you know what's really strange though, when off lead and together, I can walk them for ages at the side of me without them breaking from heel, even with other dogs around ...it's obviously me and those little bit's of leather :rolleyes:

<<<There were 4 classes going on at once, and all lthe dogs were being jerked on prongs and checks, and strung up,>>>

Sadly, that goes on here, too (albeit minus the prongs). The few times I've entered Gus in the exemption breed shows (yes I know he's a longcoat, but he loves to strut his stuff), I've seen all manner of big and little dogs hauled around the ring in a 'strung up' style :(

P.S...not sure why their website went off my profile, but it's back on now :)

Had a peek at your website Jacqui :)

YOur dogs are really beautiful :)

Lindsay

Thankyou Lindsay...L&G say "woof", though 'G' is still trying to find the scent cloth I've just spent the last hour hiding for them to find....despite that he saw me wash out the well sogged up cloth in the sink and then throw in the dryer....that dog is nuts if not persistant!!! :D

I was very sceptic at first, but after having read Jan Fennel's books (The dog listener and The practical dog listener), she has convinced me.
Her methods are totally based on a non-corrective approach.
Its all about establishing yourself as the Alpha by using the same signals as the Alpha wolf would in the wild. After this the dog will
do as you request out of its own free will, because it respects you as his leader! Any other method is forcing the dog and thus damaging your relationship with your friend.
I have applied her methods for about 48 hours now and even in such a short space of time I can already see the difference.
I personally have been waiting a long time for a training method without force or second aid's like clickers..