I'm not so sure now how I shall vote. To leave? Or stay?  What will be the benefit for myself,my son's,my grandson? So far I've only received the government leaflet and not one single, Tom,Dick or Harriet has knocked at my door canvassing! Obviously the week before they will be swarming round the streets!
Will leaving the EU have an effect on say dog breeding/importing puppies? Relax the rules or make them tougher? Quarantine re rabies will this be affected?
We hear so much about Brussells interfering with our court systems will we have more power over longer sentences?  Ability to deport easily anyone? Could be a frightening rule.
I wonder if we leave would then our hospitals,care homes give contracts to uk farmers etc to help protect jobs,our own regional cheese,fruit,veg,drinks market?
If we stay will we be wrist slapped for holding the referendum?

I'm very confused by it all. Hoping we can have a good debate as it will affect all of us somehow I'm sure!
btw loving the sunshine last few days!

For what it's worth, I was all for out on the basis of too much interference from the faceless in Brussels.   Why fight 2 WWs if only to hand it all over via the EU.  

However, further thought, and it is thought because I really don't DO politicians (don't trust any of 'em), I think this is really the devil we know.   In other words so much water has gone under the bridge since the original idea, a Common MARKET - trade agreement - that if we come out and try going it alone, are we going to find outselves totally isolated?   The Euopeans could well say we've made our beds, lie in it.   Our original trading partners have all moved on, China's economy isn't as good as it once was, America?    No, I think we are better staying in, and trying to work out good deals for the UK (after all the French managed to say yes to the rules, and go their own sweet way regardless) while we still have a say in the matter.

I was hoping for more from Cameron (idiot me) in terms of taking back our internal affairs to be honest because I'm old enough to think the original concept, the Common Market, was just a trading agreement.

For me, it's going to be IN>

if we come out and try going it alone, are we going to find outselves totally isolated?
I am still making up my mind on how to vote bearing in mind we are a major contributor - ie we pay more in than they give us back, but on just this point - we import far more from Europe than they take from us - are they likely to ban Europe exporting to UK, just consider all the French, Spanish, Italian etc wine that they ship here and all they rest of the food just for a start.

I was hoping for more from Cameron

> ie we pay more in than they give us back

Which is why I'm voting OUT.  And feel very strongly about it.

I'm hot sure how it will affect imports. I know France having a mini war with Spain over imported cheap wine even stopping tankards and emptying the wine out onto the roads.  I do give it to the French they protect their own food/drink market.
All politican's dress up facts,promise the earth and then get in and back pedal a bit with ooh dear have to change a few things after all.
My mom voted against the common market convinced it wasn't the way forward.Our old contacts are moving forward with their own market. China an example of global marketing damaged not just our steel market but the world's too. They are over run with steel even in their own industry. The US could close it's doors and support itself.
If we come out would we negotiate better deals? Would we actually have faith in our own industries? Support steelworks,support our farmers both dairy and agricultural? Would we have our passport changed again?
I'm so unsure of how I'll vote.

I'm an out out out girl and the faster the better.

I think if they banned places like Italy and France exporting to us, they wouldn't be far behind us in wanting to leave too. I'm also an out girl, even the "changes" to the Eu rules are only going to be effective for 7 years, then they could well turn around and squash us back again. EU decision makers are not elected, they are picked, who knows what the plan is!

I'm an out girl

I'm an outer too, although I wobble every now and again when the latest scare stories start flying around. Then I tell myself that's just what they are, scare stories.
I think it's a bit like being in a prison for a long time. Everything is done for you and someone is in charge,my out don't have to think, just go with the flow. Coming out means that we will have to think for ourselves again and not have nanny around saying thing like, 'you can't do that' or 'that's not for you'.

I have no idea - in/out.

What I do wonder though, is why we fear having to negotiate new trade deals. If we have to pay more for wine from European countries - why not look at south Africa and Australia? We raise perfectly good meat animals in the UK and surely the costs we pay to the EU will no longer need to be paid - leaving more for us and enabling any rise in costs to be paid without being felt too badly. Things like cotton can be purchased from India, fruit is grown all around the world and would it really kill us if asparagus wasn't available in November?

Surely the money spent on staying in the EU could be redirected to our floundering NHS, steel industry etc. All this talk of freedom of movement - seems to me that we are the only ones not really doing any moving! Instead everyone is moving here and we then feel we would be better off retiring to the south of Spain! If everyone who didn't hold a UK passport had to pay for treatment and prescriptions would we have such a deficit?

My biggest bug bear however is employment - yes people from the EU are happy to take up unskilled jobs that people here are unwilling to take but if pay conditions were better and the government made it a better deal for everyone who can work to work - even those unskilled job would be filled. How can one be better off sat at home on benefits than those who work part-time or even full time and pay taxes? If you are on benefits you can have a new boiler for free but if you work - regardless of whether you have a crippling mortgage and high outgoings outside of your control, you can just sit and freeze in an unheated house with no hot water - sorry, thems the brakes.

All I really know is that when when we weren't in the EU even our crappiest entry would win the Eurovision song contest - it was either us or Ireland - were we really that 'badass'? Now we could give out gold bars and we'd still finish up in the bottom 3. For me that says it all - on our own we were more formidable and now our roar has been replaced with a squeak! (And no that is not a reference to Dave-y-boy Cameron.)

Out

Fantastic post from gsdowner and quite honestly is a damned good argument to support the OUT vote.

If there was an applaud button I would be using it. 

To you 'outs' - you do realise that the UK currently owes the EU a significant sum of money which, presumably will have to be paid back should the decision be out.    I hope this decision isn't going to be based on the current anti-Cameron or other political feelings.  I don't like the man, but for me, there's not enough to suggest we are going to be better out (because he apparently wants in), than in with at least both feet in Europe still.   It could get pretty rough in the wilderness.

"if pay conditions were better and the government made it a better deal for everyone who can work to work - even those unskilled job would be filled."

If!!!    And is this really about winning, or not winning Eurovision?     I also have to say we walked away from trade with Australia/NewZealand etc. when we joined the Common Market.  Are those markets going to (still) be there?

Please think further than Eurovision!!!

If in doubt vote out.
It's a sin to stay in.

Well my hubby likes his cheap beer and tobacco that he can get in EU so he will be voting in

Surely it would be paid back in installments or could be written off as many other debts ie Greece have been written off. I agree it's possibly a case of being afraid of speaking for ourselves fully instead of holding eu's hands and asking if we can do...?
We haven't always been in the EU and we may be ok again without, who knows unless we try?

As for euro vision it's so political now that the song/artist doesn't matter you could get a flock of sheep to Baa Baaa in tune and the UK still get nil points. I really detest the programme since Wogan's wonderful commentary went.

We can negotiate with South Africa/Australia and more. Our farmers may get some relief and not paid to wash milk away but compete for contracts in uk hospitals,care centre's,offices and less eu milk and eggs flooding market

I think I'm becoming an out vote

I shall be voting out, not really based on any sound understanding that we will be better off out than in.
I don't truly believe that even the most knowledgable politicians or economists etc can say with any certainty which is best! 

We seemed to do alright before we were in, yes lots of circumstances have changed since those days, it all seems a bit of a gamble but I think all we can do is follow our hearts and my heart tells me out!

It should be a non politically motivated decision but I fear a lot the electorate may use their vote to make a political point.

You seem to be sticking to my ending comment Mamabas and not the points I raised before it. Eurovision holds no importance to me - I was simply using it as an example to highlight my point. We as a nation are not 'chummy' with any of the other EU countries in the same way as those that border with each other. The fact that we get 'nil point' simply puts this in perspective. We have and always will be an island nation and therefore we cannot expect other countries to back us over those they share borders with. France and the immigrant issues at Calais are a great reminder of how little we can do and how little the french are willing to co-operate.

As for walking away from trade deals in the past - it's a damn shame we did, but the market has changed and these emerging trade markets have lots to gain by still negotiating with us. At the end of the day the market is growing and funnily enough - once you say no to all the big countries that didn't want to trade with you ten or fifteen years ago, out of spite - you run out of nations to trade with!

We may owe money to the union but if we stop pumping money their way to stay in, we can start paying it back.

This isn't about Cameron - they are all as clueless as each other. It's about the fact that we have no one advising us that doesn't have an agenda to either stay in or get out.

Thanks Jean :) sometime I worry I'm talking out of the wrong end ;)

Having read in-depth the pros & cons of EU membership & looked at who supports which side, I'm definitely voting  to stay.

It will cost us not just money, but trade & other benefits if we leave. And as for the supporters of leaving Bonking US citizen/UK citizen Boris Johnson, adulterer, ignorant numpty who is so rich he pays £500,000 a year tax & who is refusing to pay US tax even though he is legally required too(he was born in New York & has dual nationality) & the beer swilling & Nicholas Farage, twice married, ex commodities trader, far left, somewhat hypocritical MEP, who hates the people who pay his salary(including his wife as a secretary & basically talks a load of male cow poop IMHO

If I hadn't already made up my mind, listening to these two rich men talk would have done the decision for me, a gigantic stay, what a pair of persons with certifiable lack of intelligence, would have pushed me is the other side to the stay to the out supporters.

Oh, dear me, if by reading your comments on the EU referendum if this is a representation of the UK people, I've come to the conclusion that the general public does not understand what being part of the EU means.  The OUT comments are correct.  As for the IN worrying about their cheap booze and fags that will carry on as it is.   As regards imports that will carry on as it is.  As regards cheap holidays that will carry on as it is. 
To be OUT means we will be able to have a bigger selection world-wide and we will be able to export more freely. There will be more jobs.  For example take the man who has traded as an ice-cream seller since 1969 on the same pitch, the council have now awarded it to a Polish man. 
My dog groomer is Polish for another example.
Just one more thing, the other countries are waiting for our OUT vote so they can they can do the same.  Many Italians, Greeks and Spanish want out.

Bottom line, as I see all of this

1.   OUT - leap into the unknown
2.   IN - not all good but at least it's the devil we know!   And having two feet in, means we are more able to negotiate than if we are out and I'd bet the shutters will be well and truly down if we do walk away.

We haven't been able to negotiate anything since we joined except have the Euro as our currency.  David Cameron a few weeks ago was attempting to negotiate and achieved nothing.  He was just laughed at and ridiculed.  Look at the mess he made of cheap Chinese steel.  Our NHS is running out of money because of treating Europe for free. No we have got to once again prove to the world be can stand proud.

I meant not have the Euro which proved to be the right thing.

Its not just a financial choice.

We could tarmac over the green belt and build much needed houses and industrial sites but we choose not to.

Poor countries tend to be happier countries.

I want more stuff.
I want a bigger house.
I want a new car.

Want, want, want decadent western economy. 

What happened to Dave's happiness scale a few years back ?

More people = bigger economy.

No houses or school places but hey hum its more money.

I'm voting out. One of the biggest reasons being that if we stay now, Europe will most definitely want to make an example of us and we will lose the last little bit of power we had left

Every year the French hold us to ransom with their strikes.  In Kent there is operation stack on the M20 motorway causing problems to the villages along the way.  Villagers cannot get in or out because of blocked lanes.  Human filth is deposited everywhere.  The government is trying to ruin a beautiful village by intending to build a truck stop on the green fields to accomodate these trucks.  The EU does nothing for us, if they cared they would stop the French from ruining our lives.  So much for us all being in it together.
Also illegal immigrants not being stopped in France.   So much for being a united Europe.

> Bottom line, as I see all of this<br /><br />1.   OUT - leap into the unknown<br />2.   IN - not all good but at least it's the devil we know!   And having two feet in, means we are more able to negotiate than if we are out and I'd bet the shutters will be well and truly down if we do walk away.

Fortune favours the bold - not those too scared to make a change

Look at the mess he made of cheap Chinese steel.  Our NHS is running out of money because of treating Europe for free. No we have got to once again prove to the world be can stand proud.

Oh dear very very Xenophobic.

The NHS is badly funded & run by too many non medical managers, hence is short of money, nothing to do with immigrants~some foreigners do get charged for treatment, but not many.

The Tories have no interest in the "lower"classes in the UK & has been busy toadying up to the Chinese
could hardly impose restrictions on their industries.

Being proud of being "British" has nothing to do with the EU. We are no longer the "owner's" of an empire, we are a small island(well 1 small island, a bit of another even smaller island & a number of even smaller islands to be totally correct) of approximately 64,500,00 people a minnow when compared to China, India, USA etc. We will never have the influence we used to have.

As a matter of fact we"British"are as nation of immigrants from before records began. Unless you are of pure Celtic or Gaelic descent, then you come from immigrants !

Someone mentioned that we have lost the special trade between ourselves &.the commonwealth, er no we haven't we still have"special"trading between New Zealand etc

IMHO I think the leavers are bigging up the Xenophobic fear's of the country to try to sway the result I do hope it doesn't happen & I would hate to live in a Country run by Bonking Johnson. Hateful man

I have the sneaky feeling that the EU powers are more worried about us leaving in case it starts the rot and a whole load of other countries decide to leave too, so that the EU will end up being a number of poor countries who are not contributing (apart from from France and Germany) and only taking out.
Apart from that I don't think the EU cares one jot about the UK and just wish we would shut up and pay up.

.
I am against people aged over around the 40-45 age mark being allowed to vote on this.

A no (not leave) means they stay with it for as long as it lasts, if a no (dont stay) leaving will not happen overnight with immediate effects, their are an awful lot of complications that could take years to sort out (euro law based contracts etc >maybe< being an example) and the 40-45 + age groups may only be able to live any 'out' benefits they perceive for a few short years, whilst the younger age groups have to live with whatever for as long as it lasts, it's very imbalanced 'cause of the age thing.
.

Why the age group 40-45? What is so different re this age group than say 65-75?? Or 18-22?

> A no (not leave) means they stay with it for as long as it lasts, if a no (dont stay) leaving will not happen overnight with immediate effects, their are an awful lot of complications that could take years to sort out (euro law based contracts etc >maybe< being an example) and the 40-45 + age groups may only be able to live any 'out' benefits they perceive for a few short years, whilst the younger age groups have to live with whatever for as long as it lasts, it's very imbalanced 'cause of the age thing.<br />.

What in the world does age have to do with this?    Very odd.

I have to say since Obama, whereas I was IN, I'm back to being undecided.   Unfortunately Obama's words may be a heads up re how people in other countries are feeling much as I'm not sure I care about, or like, an American trying to dictate to us.   But that's what many Americans do eh.    He's an OUT-going President and will be gone by the end of the year, so frankly how does he know what an incoming Administration might be going to do re trade agreement with the European block or us.    And how much trade do we actually do with America that UK needs to be worried about what he has to say?   

Another thing - he's clearly not thought about the broader picture when it comes to how we in the UK feel about Brussels sticking their nose in every aspect of British life.  America wouldn't like Mexico, or Canada doing that would they!   I found his words insulting at best (as if we in the UK can't look after ourselves) and unwise at least.    His subsequent interview with Hugh Edwards had him attempting to back track - 'special relationship'?    Yeah right - if push came to shove, America would look after itself first, quite rightly.    I often wonder whether America would have come into WW2 had there been no Pearl Harbour.

True Obama will not be the next President and he wouldn't stand for Canada or Cuba advising the US how they should vote on internal affairs.
I had to smile at the back pedalling interview he gave perhaps after his advisors jaws had shut after his first comments re EU!
Regards to ww2 I think Pearl Harbour was the turning point too. A dreadful event in history alongside so many more.

In regards to Pearl Harbour, it is an interesting fact that none of the US more modern & larger ships were damaged, they had left there days before the attack, coincidence ? It did give Roosevelt the reason to declare war on Japan & it's allies, before this there was little support for the UK & it's allies, coincidence mk II ??

> I am against people aged over around the 40-45 age mark being allowed to vote on this. <br /><br />A no (not leave) means they stay with it for as long as it lasts, if a no (dont stay) leaving will not happen overnight with immediate effects, their are an awful lot of complications that could take years to sort out (euro law based contracts etc >maybe< being an example) and the 40-45 + age groups may only be able to live any 'out' benefits they perceive for a few short years, whilst the younger age groups have to live with whatever for as long as it lasts, it's very imbalanced 'cause of the age thing.

Wow

Maybe a good proportion of people in your "excluded" group have lived long enough to have seen the UK from both sides of the "in" and "out" experience and are able to make a good balanced decision having lived as both a part of, and outside, the EU community. And you are right - it is a generation thing. Some of us have lived in times when personal gain wasn't the be all and end all of our existence and the wider picture was considered as to what would be best for the majority rather than best for us individually. There are still younger people who believe that nowadays and aren't just out for what is best for them but sadly there is also a growing number of people who are only concerned with what is best for them however that impacts upon others. Apologies to all those younger folk who don't think like that - I know there are a lot of people who don't have the "Me, me, me" mindset but the statement I am replying to demonstrates that only too well.

A no (not leave) means they stay , if a no (dont stay)
doesn't make sense - the first no contradicts the second no

I am against people aged over around the 40-45 age mark being allowed to vote on this
Would you like to tell us how old you are???
The general expectation is that a higher percentage of the younger population does not vote............this would mean that 60%ish (guestimate) of the population would be subject to the whim of those who fit your age group 30%ish minus the percentage of those who do not bother to vote.
Hardly democratic.

Id like to highlight that as part of the EU all visitors or residents from the UK get free healthcare too. Works both ways.
I do wonder what will happen to all the expats in Eu countries, will they be forced to become a national of that country or leave? At the moment its so up in the air and with leaving there are far too many unanswered questions that cant be answered and I do wonder whether jumping ship really would be for the better in many ways. Financially we have no guarantees at all. How many big companies would up ship and move their hq's or big offices into say Germany? People would loose their jobs and the loss of that financial side of things too would hit hard.

Makes me laugh, old ukip leader wants out yet his partner is I believe German, might make it much harder for them to live together

> I do wonder what will happen to all the expats in Eu countries, will they be forced to become a national of that country or leave?

On a personal level I do wonder about this... I'm one of those evil foreigners in UK, draining the NHS.
Have been here for 16 years, paid my tax and living... like ALL foreigners I know here in UK.
Been here for 16 years and hold a finnish passport.
I have two British children whose dad is American.
I do wonder what OUT means for us...

Indeed, it is worrying because no one can answer the question re ex pats in mainland Europe but what about mainland Europeans already settled in the UK. That question has yet to be covered I've seen, would they allow you to remain, force your hand into deciding which passport you wish to hold - to remain here you have to relinquish your Finnish passport.
I have friends who live across mainland Europe and have made another country their home and likewise friends who are non uk passport holders and living in the UK which is their home.
I think this question needs answering even if it is for this country and their proposals for those living here who don't hold a uk passport.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side

Noora you have got it wrong.  You live here.  It's the people from all over the world who come here on a tourist visa, go straight to casualty and get free treatment for an on-going problem. As regards ex-pats they do exact the same thing as long as they have a postal address in the UK.
English people living in Spain for example will still carrying on living there because Spain needs their money.

Have you got evidence of rhis ? People from outside the UK who need a visa to enter the UL.are billed for their treatmemt.
"Change country 

NHS charges for people from abroad

Your entitlement to free NHS treatment depends on the length and purpose of your residence in the UK, not your nationality. You might be charged for some NHS services, for example, your dental treatment, though you could be entitled to help with these charges. Any free NHS treatment you receive, or any help with NHS costs, does not affect your immigration status.

If you are entitled to it, you can obtain free treatment immediately. There is no qualifying period.

If you have to pay for treatment because you do not meet the residence conditions, this does not count as discrimination. However, you must be given clear information about charges in a way you understand. This could include providing information in a foreign language or an interpreter, if necessary. If you aren't given clear information, this might be discrimination and you can complain about it"

Want, want, want decadent western economy.

Yeeeaaa......I'd vote/promote for a decadent populace..................bring on the fun, games & hanky panky
.

I go on holiday to say France, I have an accident and end up in hospital, I have an ehic card so my treatment is free. The NHS covers the cost likewise for when in the UK and the NHS treat people from eu countries the bill goes back to the relevant country to pay

The biggest thing people are forgetting is this. Once the vote is in if it's a Stay in vote thats it..forever no chance to change any policies now. If the vote is Out then we will have 2 years to sort out the exit requirements giving time to re-think our position and maybe the EU will then realise how important the UK is to it and will sort out some of the problems, we can always have another IN vote before the 2 years are up. My OH is very well read on the subject and also a very astute businessman. It effects us a little more as we are in the process of buying a house in the South of France to retire to. (Cats out the bag now !) Believe me we have looked at every view we can find on the subject and still as ex-pats to be we think an out vote is best. Healthcare in the UK is free to a point and I am firmly of the belief that it may well change the NHS is unable to cope and will  get much worse. Healthcare in Europe is not free, but there are rules in place to support those on low incomes. Thier health care is very good on the whole. Every one who chooses to travel overseas should have insurance, you are covered to a point on your card but this only covers certain things
:- Each country's health system is different and might not include all the things you would expect to get free of charge from the NHS. This means you may have to make a patient contribution to the cost of your care. For more information, see our country
-by-country guide.

In an emergency, you can dial the European emergency number 112 from any telephone or mobile phone.
Since July 1 2014 you can no longer claim refunds for patient contributions (co-payments) in the UK.
Not covered

The EHIC is not an alternative to travel insurance. It will not cover any private medical healthcare or costs, such as mountain rescue in ski resorts, being flown back to the UK, or lost or stolen property. This makes it important to have both an EHIC and a valid private travel insurance policy. Some insurers now insist you hold an EHIC, and many will waive the excess if you have one.
The EHIC will not cover your medical expenses if you are going abroad specifically to have treatment (including giving birth). Read more about planned treatment abroad.
You may not be able to use the card in some parts of the EEA as state-provided healthcare may not be available.
Covered

The card provides you with the right to access state-provided healthcare on temporary stays at a reduced cost or, in many cases, for free. This includes treatment of a chronic or pre-existing medical condition that becomes necessary during your visit.
It includes routine maternity care (not only because of illness or an accident), as long as you're not going abroad to give birth. However, if the birth happens unexpectedly, the EHIC will cover the cost of all medical treatment for mother and baby that is linked to the birth.
The EHIC covers the provision of oxygen and kidney dialysis, although you will have to arrange and pre-book these treatments before you go on holiday. You can ask your GP or hospital for advice, but make sure you are not booked with a private healthcare provider, as these are not covered by the EHIC.
The card also covers routine medical care for people with pre-existing conditions that need monitoring.

“We have our own dream and our own task.  We are with Europe, but not of it.  We are linked but not combined.  We are interested and associated but not absorbed.  If Britain must choose between  Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

Winston Churchill 1953

It's getting closer now with the referendum. I still stand by my original decision despite breakfast tv reality check every day,newspapers full of for and against. .

My question

Since we joined what have we gained?   Facts not stats I'd like the for and against campaign to answer..

Why did Margaret Thatcher ask for a rebate?

If we stay will we regret it?

Will Brussels go on defensive for the referendum and pose more ridiculous sanctions?

Not had one candidate knick my door typical really

One thing I saw that the EU has helped with is beach cleanliness (there's a short clip somewhere on the BBC website). Without EU legislation, British beaches would still be swimming in sewage. I remember Blackpool in the early sixties......

one of the most puerile arguments I have seen from 'in' is that ............mobile phone calls from abroad on holiday will cost more................. as if that is a major consideration !!!