I just wanted to say a big thanks to all of you people on Champdogs and the Admin team too. 

I don't know of any other internet forum or FB group where I could go to get breeding advice from so many experienced and knowledgeable breeders.  This is my Go To place for breeding help.

CD is really the best

On a separate subject, our ferry is booked for a week's time - we will get to the stud on Tues next week (Day 12 - MY version of Day 12, taking first blood as Day 1(!)) and we are currently booked to be in the area through Day 15 inclusive.  I guess we can extend beyond that if needed, but currently the diary has only been cleared that far(!!!).

We are not testing, but if we don't get a mating on Day 12, I think we will do a progesterone test with the stud dog owner's vet to see where we are.

Meanwhile, I am waiting for the vet to call me back so I can get her to order the herpes jab in - I called Saturday morning and again this morning, and still they haven't called back...

Very good luck with all this. I do hope there is a successful mating and subsequent puppies, you certainly have done everything you can to cover as many bases as possible.
I've been following all you various threads over the past few months and look forward to more with interest.

Oh, and it reminds me why I've never decided to breed from any of my dogs, far to much faff and worry.

>far to much faff and worry.

You know, it does cross my mind

Good luck ... Finger toes and paws all crossed

Well according to the ovulation pad things (which I know a lot of people say are rubbish) she's ovulating already on day 4...!!!!

(I am just so nervous about getting there too late!)

No ferning on the microscope.

Heaviest blood flow we've had.

Absolute bonkers humping blankets behaviour....

Boat is booked, accommodation booked, entire diary cancelled for whole of next week - classes rescheduled (nightmare), but what if day 12 is too late.....I guess we just have to chance it - there's just too much to be organised to do this by blood test at the last minute..... Arg.

Have to say that when I bred toydogs 30 or 40 years ago, we used to reckon that bitches which had a less than 6 month interval between seasons seemed to have shorter seasons, and be ready to mate earlier. We didn't have testing, unless you count the glucose Testape, but judged the best day by the way they behaved. OK, sometimes we had smallish litters, but there were very few misses. We never mated more than twice, at that time it was thought that more matings delayed implantation.
I feel like a dinosaur posting this!

Arg, don't say that Carole I was just terrifying myself by wondering the same thing!

Thing is - even if we were progesterone testing, we would start the day advised by Idexx - which is Day 8.  That would be this Friday.  So we wouldn't get the result from that, till Monday (due to where we live), and we are leaving for the stud Monday night anyway.  So progesterone testing isn't going to see us there any sooner unless we test earlier than what Idexx themselves recommend for a bitch who hasn't previously had a problem.  (She's a maiden.)

So, unless we now do a seemingly unnecessary thing and go get a progesterone test tomorrow (Day 5), getting result back Thursday (Day 7)... I don't think we can do anything but continue as planned.   Idexx testing that early on the basis of discredited pink ovulation pad things and some pretty intense humping seems a bit flimsy...?!  (I thought people said that behaviour isn't an adequate thing to judge by as some dogs will even stand throughout heat, for eg...)  (She does sometimes hump blankets even when out of season, it just gets a bit more intense during seasons!!)

If we did test Day 5 with result Day 7 that told us to go, we'd have to attempt to change all our travel plans if necessary to Thurs night for a mating Friday (Day 8)...

I do remember reading a book which said that most bitches miss because owners rush them there too soon.... arg....

On the (third) hand, during her last season I observed things pretty closely and Day 8 and 9 was maximum blanket humping and swollen vulva days.  After that her bits got less swollen and the bleeding decreased a lot - it all seemed to be over, although she did keep spotting lightly for another 10+ days.

ARG.  Maybe we should test tomorrow after all. 

> We are not testing, but if we don't get a mating on Day 12, I think we will do a progesterone test with the stud dog owner's vet to see where we are.

We did that with our Myka, as the dog showed no interest up to day 16, blood taken day 17 showed she was only just ovulating and was mated days 18 - 20, she is my latest ovulater so far and was mated this late on all three lutters.

I've been reading all your posts, and I really understand what you are going through.  I feel for you.  I would be tearing my hair out too.  And the added difficulties of living on an island don't help!  Wish you loads of luck!

I have read nearly everywhere - and have experienced it myself - that most of us panic and get the female to the male too early.  I bet you are going to be spot on, the way you have it planned.  I guess you will just have to stumble along, you've done the best you can, and I bet you will hit the mark!  And the fact that the sperm live up to 7 days and the eggs are viable for several days is always in our favor.

Stupid question though:  Why don't you take your female and go visit a male who lives nearby?  Just to see how he reacts.  I suppose that wouldn't change a whole lot, as your plans and reservations are all set in stone now, but it might throw some light on the present state of things for you and even be - somehow - reassuring.  Just a thought...

At any rate, I am sure I join many others in looking forward to your news!  Thumbs firmly held (where I live, they hold their thumbs!).

I myself am expecting puppies from Nimue in 10 days, so fingers, toes and paws well crossed here.... and yes, thumbs held.

I just don't think we can afford to miss this, so I'm planning on calling our vets for a test this morning. If we can do it first thing, we may even get results tomorrow.

If the result is "test in 2 days", that would mean testing Friday - and then all I've said above applies re not getting results till Monday when we're leaving anyway. So we should only need this one test (here, at least) for peace of mind that we're not too early.

I've only had 3 hrs sleep last night, been lying here worrying & analyzing everything!! I have so much adrenaline pumping I just can't sleep!!

Our travel and accommodation are changeable & although it is crap to cancel yet more stuff on people, it's better to do that if we have to than stick to our plans if they aren't going to work...

Nimue, my friend has an entire male who goes crazy for her 2wks before she comes in, and I just don't know any really reliable males who won't be interested unless she's ready - who are dependable like that.

Get the test done and its better to mate a little early than it is too late. Because the semen lasts I've known litters come about from early matings when progesterone has said mate in a few days. Never thought of the pattern but the time between seasons does go with how early she was said to be ready with my girl. Intetesting

1.  Right, we are back from the vets - bloods done.  £85!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!     Results in 48hrs, possibly tomorrow (24hrs).

2.  I emailed a photo of my results to the woman who sells the ovulation pads (as she offers interpretation of them too?!) and she said it was negative.  Although I have no idea what that was based on, because it definitely changed colour.  Maybe she just said that because it was Day 4...

3.  I just looked at today's saliva test and it is POSITIVE for ferning.  I was so not expecting to see anything - but then I focussed it more and we have some ferning starting.  Just 2 isolated fern leaves at the moment, not a whole mesh of stuff - but it really looks pretty cool.  If I am remembering ferning right, it is mating 4 days from first seeing ferning.  That would be Saturday (Day 9).  (I did take the saliva a different way today though - rather than wiping the slide on the dog's tongue, I used a pipette to suck up some saliva from under the tongue - I just teased her with it, then sucked some up.  This was way easier to get more spit.  So I hope my different method hasn't screwed the results and this really is the first day of ferning.) 

I am just a bit freaked out that we are getting positive results for both ovulation pads and ferning... I am now really glad we just ran a progesterone test for a ridiculous £. 

We should get the results of that on Thursday at the latest and hopefully we can get to the stud for Saturday if I need to change our plans.  (What we will do if the progesterone says 'test again in 2 days' and conflicts with the ferning?  Do I sit here looking at ferning and wait till our scheduled ferry on Monday?)

Am now resisting the urge to run there immediately.

> (I thought people said that behaviour isn't an adequate thing to judge by as some dogs will even stand throughout heat, for eg...

Never a truer word. 

One of my bitches flagged from day 3 and would have mated with a camel she was such a trollop.  Yet her true ideal was day 10.

I did read a book which said that you can't rely on any one of these things, you have to know your bitch and what she's telling you (and no two bitches will be the same) and then supplement that with all these other tests rather than going by tests alone.  Based on that, I want to go sooner.

Although I have to try to restrain myself and tell myself that most people get there too soon.  Sigh...

I am currently in the same boat as you Rabid.

Day 9 will be thursday for my bitch - who has failed to get in whelp since she has been with me but has produced a litter prior to that. It is now or never really as she turned 4 in october and I am becoming more and more aware of the gap between litters and her rising age.

I used the ovulation pads too (Karen by any chance?) with both girls as they came in within days of each other last time. This girl showed false positives from day 1 and I was told she wasn't ready each time I sent in her results. We finally went day 17 and although she reluctantly allowed the male to mount, she wasn't at all happy and the tie was only 7 minutes - she didn't take :( I was told she wasn't 'juicy' enough and that this was skewing the results. My other bitch was textbook in season, use of pads and ties.

So she came back in on wednesday and started harassing my boy on thursday! On previous experience she pesters him when she isn't ready and when he finally tells me she is ready - she can't be bothered anymore! Its good he's here to help me judge days but a pain to keep them apart (never had an accident so am proud of that achievement at least - hubby however did,  so he is now not allowed to leave or enter a room without permission!). I have arranged to have her swabbed on thursday and the stud owner is on standby. I don't progesterone test as I don't see the reason if there is nothing wrong with the bitch and I have a reliable boy. But this may be my only option. I too ummed and aaahed about the chv and have decided to do it - just by following your posts :) seemed pointless posting the exact same questions as you!

One thing I would like your help on is ferning, how you do it and your results as I had a go (just to see how it works) and lost patience when I kept thinking I wasn't getting anywhere. So when you have time and after all this is over, can we talk?

Keep calm and wait for the test results - don't worry too much about the ovu pads as they aren't 100%. I shall keep my fingers crossed for you and pray that both our girls have successful pregnancies :)

Okey doke!

The ferning is easy to do, but I could do with some help on the interpretation side of things (asked on the other thread).

I got a FertilFocus babystart thing off Amazon for about £20.  Having read lots of posts on here about the importance of lots of saliva, I also ordered 50 pipettes (disposable) for about £3 from Amazon.  I didn't have the pipettes the first 2 days because she came in much earlier than I was expecting, so I just swiped it on her tongue and tried to get some spit that way.  I don't know if that's why there's no ferning on those results - because I did them a different way and it didn't work as well.  Today I had the pipettes, so I just held some treats and wafted them around to get her mouth watering.  Then I sucked up some gob with the pipette and deposited it on the slide of the FertilFocus.  It had a lot of air bubbles in from the pipette, so I tapped them out until they were all gone and it was just gob.  Then left it to dry and went to do our progesterone test at the vet's!  (You can leave it to dry as long as you want, but it has to be dry before looking.)

You need to test before the dog has eaten or drunk anything for about 3 hrs beforehand, so I always do first thing in the morning.  (And ovulation pads at night.)

I'm not very scientific and talk of microscopes and stuff nearly put me off and made me think I'd be looking for something subtle that I wouldn't identify right, but if you look at the photos (other thread I just posted), you'll see they are very clear.

Thank you!

Going by the response on the question I have posted on the other thread, I might just have a go at the proposed experiment. I am hoping you will continue to check the ferning as the pictures were great quality.

I will do the same next season and then perhaps we can compare for future reference :)

I would also look at cytology, so a swab and have a look to see if you have any cornification. I would say that's a little more reliable than swabs by colour and mouth swabs. Anyone local do that? But either way I would go with progesterone as a more balanced result.

I still can't believe the progesterone was £85

There is a vet I've been told does good vaginal cytology but he isn't at my vet practice...

No harm in getting that done but you don't want 4 tests all saying different things lol

I am kinda afraid of that!  I think progesterone would win out, there! 

I think there is a large gap in the market here, for training dogs to detect progesterone levels in other dogs and to give an alert when they pass a certain level.  Just like Seizure Alert Dogs.  They would need to be female dogs, so as not to be distracted by the lure of a bitch in season.  Everyone in the area can just come pay a sniffing visit to my Progesterone Alert Dog with their in-season bitch and I will confidently tell them when their bitch is ovulating.

Ta da!

Even better - train your female dogs to alert on each other.  They will just keep sitting next to the ovulating bitch. 

I can see this is going to make me millions...