Hi, thanks for any input on this matter, it's been troubling me

I have a fantastic flat coated male pup, 6 months and he's laugh a minute, boisterous and giddy and loves rolling in muddy puddles (part dog part hippo I think!) and myself and my other half have been working hard with positive training for sit, wait, find it etc whilst at home. His walking on a loose lead needs lots more work and he is now pulling like a train despite walking beautifully aged 3-5 months. We therefore started
Going to a local dog class and this is where my problem lies...

As puppy owners will sympathise, he's a little giddy at the start of class pulling and excited to meet other dogs and twice now the trainer has scruffed him or grabbed him a roughed him to make him squeal. Now, this trainer is well experienced and maybe I'm being OTT but it made me feel extremely uncomfortable and has made me doubt her skills....

She has encouraged us also to do the same at home too - scruff him when jumping up at counters, tap on the nose with the lead when naughty or scruff him hard when too boisterous with other dogs. I feel this is massively not needed for a puppy learning the world and kinder methods can be used but will take time... I feel wretched after and poor pup has now started backing away when I put the lead on him... I have had sleepless nights worrying about pup becoming nervous or at worst, aggressive in time (I'm aware this is largely out of character for a Flattie!)

Whilst my trainer is gun dog experienced, I don't think she has worked with flatties and we knew full well when getting him that we had a responsibility to train and give our time to shaping his behaviour but this is not how I wanted to do so, they are soft natured albeit willful and boisterous but we know this and we felt we were teaching him manners in kinder manner before going to the class (praise of correct behaviour - not punishing bad).

Am I being overly dramatic and protective of my pup or is my trainer out dated??

Thanks all

Stop using this trainer at once! Those methods are wrong for any breed and totally unnecessary! Your beautiful flat coat will be ruined if you continue like this. They are a very sensitive breed and your gut instincts are correct, follow them please!

I would not be accepting of this at all,do not go back and find another training class. Have you found a local one to you for the kennel club good citizen, please don't tell me that this trainer is, if they are I would report them to the KC at once. Punishment training is nit appropriate and not acceptable.

No trainer should be making your dog squeal in fear or pain. I'd ditch that class straight away and find one using a better method. Espicialy as you have seen your dog now backing away when your putting the lead on its clearly effecting him in a negative way.
Not everyone agrees with with the same methods but there is a diffrence from being firm and being rough. Sounds like this trainer is the latter.

Totally agree suejaw.
Training should be fun and a positive experience for your dog.

I have no issue with firm but fair training as many breeds need this but punishment and rough handling is not conducive to a well rounded dog

Run for the hills.............

So what if your pup is a little boisterous to start with that is part of being a pup, and that is part and parcel of being a 'Peter Pan' Flattie, they are supposed to be excitable, happy and go deaf at times, you just have to be patient, use praise......and reward for new commands, they get it.....eventually

Some take longer than others, some pups I've home trained have been more hyperactive and taken a little longer, you just have to go with the flow of the dog. I once met a man with a Springer who told me they need a good hit with a stick to get their attention, he got short shrift from me I can tell you, never needed any negativity to train any dog.

Keep your dog away from these trainers, you'll do a better job yourself if no-one else is in your area, but I dare say you will find someone else.

Unfortunately there are some rogue trainers out there. My daughter called a trainer ( in name only I think) she went to my daughters  house to try and correct an issue and wanted to see the dog in his home environment. She actually got a large cane out of the boot of her car and proceeded to hit the dog on the back or muzzle each time he didn't do exactly what she wanted.
My daughter grabbed the cane, broke it in half and then threw the woman and the cane out the door - mind you this was after payment had been made at the start of the session.
Admittedly this was around 5 years ago, but my daughter was so horrified that she reported the woman to the KC, but I think her references were either false or the KC did nothing as we heard nothing back

Must be related to the man with the Springer You can be very proud of your daughter, good on her, she must have been horrified. The woman is lucky she did not call the police as well. Some people should never be allowed near dogs, they cause irreparable harm.

I hope that your daughters dog was ok afterwards, you know sadly some people would not have intervened, just been shook up afterwards, as they would not quite be sure of what to do, you brought your daughter up well to act and stand up for what is right.

Thank you all so so much, it's really been making me uneasy and I agree I should trust my gut on this instance and back away....having read your posts I've contacted a trainer locally who is KC approved :)

She is not KC registered but came recommended through word of mouth from a few people locally but I really have found it an intolerable hour wishing I wasn't there! Sadly it feels like she picks on him a little - it was telling that she asked again how old he was after giving him a firm grab and looked a little sheepish when I reminded her he was only a baby but his gangly leggedness and size makes him appear older!! :(

I'm new to flatties myself but grew up with Springers so was already braced for needing patience and to work hard to train - he's so switched on and loves learning and makes me full on belly laugh at his antics in puddles/ponds/laundrybins that I would hate for any part of his spirit to be affected by this handling :)

Thank you all for your insight,

Well done, wishing you all the luck in the world with your new trainer always best to go word of mouth, and that you are with someone who appreciates your happy, go-lucky breed, his life should be full of fun and wonder and learning commands should be rewarding for him with a wagging tail. FCR are lovely happy dogs, with you as his owner he'll do ok and stay that way.

Some gundog trainers do seem to be very hard on their dogs, it's definitely not something I like at all.

Last year I went to a country show and they had two gundog displays, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon. The one in the morning treated the dogs kindly with positive training methods which they happened to mention was met with some disapproval amongst the gundog community. The display was good fun and the dogs a joy to watch, very happy, relaxed and obedient.

The afternoon man trained his dogs quite harshly, much like you have described in your first post. You could feel the animosity grow in the crowd as the display went on. The dogs were obedient, but not particularly happy or relaxed. Their tails were down and their manner was appeasing rather then joyful and happy.

If you want to see a good gundog trainer have a look at the Phillippa Williams who does a gundog display at Crufts each year. Apart from being hilarious and good entertainment, she only trains using positive methods. I trained with her years ago when she lived in the south and her own very obedient working golden retrievers spend all their time watching her, waiting for her next command (request really)

Find a trainer who uses positive methods of training.

Pleased u are.chamging trainers
I have a 5 year old flattie my second and agree they can be boisterous and full on but are also sensitive . As u have seem all.the signs are there that this trainer is the wrong one .u will be better to stop going and train yourself until u can start with a new one. A flattie that's backing off is not a happy flattie .get that tail wagging again :)

So pleased you have followed the advice given on here and also that you recognised yourself that this persons methods were wrong. I hope you have lots of fun and enjoyment with your boy, they are delightful dogs. Sorry if my post was a bit sharp! Knowing and loving the breed as I do, I was truly aghast at a flat coat receiving such harsh treatment!

All the best,

Linda

Not at all Linda!!! I'm so grateful that people here share my worries - we adore his nature and it's been the best few months with this little dude!!! He's a perfect breed for us as we walk so much and don't take ourselves too seriously :)

Needless to say he's curled up snoozing next to my leg right now :)

In time he will hopefully be a Pets as Therapy Dog although a little way off that hehe!

Yep that's where a velcro dog belongs right by your side

What a shame that there are still "trainers" like this around, so glad you went with your instinct and walked away, flatties are gorgeous dogs and very trainable but seem quite slow to mature so whilst they must be obedient and have fair discipline imo they should not have the joy squashed out of them. It's always been a favourite breed of mine although I have never had one, lovely to see them with their tails forever on the go, I know that people who work gundogs professionally need to have them absolutely instantly responsive otherwise they won't last long out with the guns but pets are rather a different spectrum.

I got as far as 'she scuffed him and made him squeal' at this point my only answer has to be DO NOT GO BACK.   This was totally wrong on her part.   If she felt your puppy was disrupting the class by his behaviour, she should surely have spoken to you quietly afterwards, making helpful suggestions.   People like this who run training classes, especially for puppies, should know how to handle boisterous puppies

She should be stopped!   But best you can do is walk.   Find another training class.

Puts me in mind of an Obedience class I took one of my girls to.   I went on the basis that as long as she was okay and enjoying it, fine but the moment she wasn't end of.    These people were used to working with Dobermans and wanted me to be much harder on my girl (which didn't involve scruffing her!!) which I started to try - at which point her tail went down and I walked.    Happily before any lasting damage was done with my bitch.

I suggest people go and watch a class (don't take your dog) before they decide to sign up. I always encourage people to come and watch one of my classes if they're looking around for a place to train.

All the advice you have been given here is excellent and thank goodness you only took your gorgeous puppy a couple of times. I think it would be a good idea to find out if that "trainer" is affiliated to an association of trainers and REPORT HER. She really must stop treating any dog in that way. Keep on enjoying your boy and his antics. If they don't make us laugh, why would we have them?

Unfortunately KC listed does not mean they are positive force free trainers. Ideally go to a class without your Peter Pan of the gundog world and watch a class. They need to learn, will soak it up and if you can find the settle off switch they can relax..! I too took my 9 mth old flatcoat pup to a so called accredited gundog trainer and she hit him twice, once with the flat of her hand on top of his skull and then with the end of a rope lead across the muzzle , at which point I stopped the class. I found out afterwards from a flatcoat judge that her reputation precedes her.

Walk away and don't look back.     Flatcoats very quickly lose confidence with you with that sort of training.    A very well known trainer in a general gundog  class went over to my dog once, without my permission, and scruffed him when he didn't stop on the whistle.        Took weeks for him to trust me again, and needed very sensitive handling.      Needless to say I never went back.

Jo

Goldies too need sensitive handling and can be knocked for six with rough treatment. Much better to find out what makes them pay attention that doesn't involve hitting them.

Leave this trainer at once! Perhaps you can give us an idea where you are based and one of us can help you find a good FCR trainer near you?

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Lindsay Dory Carroll says: If my trainer did that I would have left straight away!
I have a 6mth old RR pup and would not allow any body to grab him
Poor puppy you need a different trainer x

Andrius Breivė says: Definitely not good way to behave with FCR. As much as he is keen to pulling and going out with other dogs, if you manage good on motivation, he will be keen on learning new things. Not the way to do that with violence, that will stop desire for any effort at the end. They are extremely easy and pleasure to handle. And remember, he is just 6 month old yet. Suggest finding another place.

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Sue Owen says: I have a flatcoat and had similar problem with training classes when he was young although nobody ever went as far as hitting him. The class always seemed noisy and rushed which was not a good environment to get his attention, there were also a lot of dogs in the classes. I left after a few weeks as I was not happy and found an APDT trainer who ran classes and took him there. It was a totally different approach with reward based clicker training and he loved it and I was much more relaxed. He progressed really well and went from a dog that pulled and wouldn't pay attention to the dog with the best heel work in the class and went on to do rally obedience.I would suggest you look on the APDT website and see if you can find a class in your area.

Stephanie Presdee says: Unfortunately KC listed does not mean they are positive force free trainers. Ideally go to a class without your Peter Pan of the gundog world and watch a class. They need to learn, will soak it up and if you can find the settle off switch they can relax..! I too took my 9 mth old flatcoat pup to a so called accredited gundog trainer and she hit him twice, once with the flat of her hand on top of his skull and then with the end of a rope lead across the muzzle , at which point I stopped the class. I found out afterwards from a flatcoat judge that her reputation precedes her.

Carol Chapman says: leave the class straight away, and I would name and shame the trainer so nobody else goes there. As Stephanie Pressdee recommends, go to a class first without your pup and see how it works, if you are uncomfortable about anything, leave. I have a boisterous Briard and I found she was better working with a halti on, if that is of any help

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Emma Judson says: PLEASE follow your instincts - this is not right, its not necessary and its likely to do your puppy harm, making him fear strangers or handling. Speak to the trainer and ask them not to do it, IF you feel the rest of the class has some value for you. IF you have any tiny inkling that the trainer will not heed your request not to handle your puppy like that, then leave. I run classes from time to time - there is NEVER any need to manhandle or roughly handle the dogs, never!

- - - Stephanie Presdee trouble is if it's a noisy shouty class that goes with that type of trainer and other dogs are badly handled the other dogs will be over threshold, dogs pick that up , so I doubt if anything is going to be of value.

- - - - Emma Judson says: Yes probably, but the more people speak to trainers like this and say 'dont do that'.. the better I think.

- - - -  Kathryn Roughley  says: Sounds like a Flattie.smile emoticon and hes a puppy.... no leave class in my classes i would only have max of 6 in puppy class,the trainer should come to each one of you in the class and go through things i do..then if you have any concerns you should be happy to discuss with them..or go to a class without dog and seehow its run if your happy then join if not try another class....

- - - - Shelley Heading says:  A trainer should always ask before taking a clients dog and explain what they are about to do and why. however there is NEVER any excuse apart from ignorance and lack of education for harsh punitive training methods and handling

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Jo Cartwright says:  I would LEAVE this class straight away. The dog training industry is unregulated and there are people out there calling themselves trainers who do more harm than good. Tbh, I'm not a fan of puppy classes because it rarely teaches them what they really need, it excites them too much and classes often have too many dogs. If you really want to train him seriously than I would recommend a 121 trainer.

- - - - Shelley Heading says: I disagree - a well run puppy school teaches your dog to behave well with the distraction of other dogs - on a 121 there are no distractions of dogs and people so when in the real world where there are dogs and people the distractions hit the dog full on and all the learning goes out the window. We have classes of 8 (2 instructors) the first thing we teach is to be calm and settle. our classes are usually quiet and relaxed and any owner or puppy struggling is given a little extra help and guidance and this usually helps.

- - - - Jo Cartwright says:  Shelley I see a 121 trainer once a week alongside separate ongoing training and we meet in a huge park that is full of dogs, people, children, runners and the Army train there too. My 6 month old boy can work under the biggest distractions thanks to this. I have never managed to find a pup class in 25 yrs that was helpful and gave walked out if all if them. The last one the trainer was APDT accredited with a string of other letters after her name and she had 6 dogs in that class but only concentrated on the one who was a Lab, why? Because she was a gun dog fanatic and had no time for anything else.

Thank you! I'm in Derbyshire / South Yorkshire border and happy to travel for the right class :)
I'm so grateful for the support on here, thankfully since not going to the class and working hard with reward based work his tail is wagging and full of beans so I'm hoping he's a resilient little thing and won't be squashed by his experiences in the class....

I really want to keep working at getting his to loose lead walk which he does beautifully when tired but at the start of the walk with all this muddy ground about I'm yanked over a few times (he always looks mighty concerned and licks me to death to check I'm ok!!!!) I will keep persevering with the loose lead walking in quieter less distracting environments for now

Based on your advice I'm going to observe a local ADPT class next week without pup and see how he would fare - thank you all again!!

I second or is 3rd apdt classes ( although there are other good organisations as well) I finally settled on this an dthe trainers are all well qualified and only positive training. no rough handling, pulling you dog  around or anything like you have had. Loads of treats. hope you find what you need and have a lovely time with your beautiful pup. you live in a similar area to where my fcr breeder is :)

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Alison Ogilvie says: We had a similar bad experience with a trainer with our Labrador a good number of years ago. We lasted one night it and really put us off going to classes with our next pup but we found a great class and it was like chalk and cheese. You will never build up a good relationship with your dog if punishing like that.

Nicole Wild says:  Try a local gundog training class. The one i found for my lab was fab smile emoticon

Louise Brooks says: That didn't happen in our puppy class!, please leave and consider a more positive training class x

I agree with all the above.

I just wanted to add that if you are having trouble with loose-lead walking, you might want to look into a front-fastening harness - like the Freedom harness or the Perfect Fit harness.  Being able to clip the lead on the front gives you a lot more control and power and makes it harder for the dog to pull you. 

You do still need to train the dog and not just rely on the harness as a piece of equipment, but it will make the training stages much easier.

There are trainers who use force in all areas of training, it is not gundog specific.  One of my own worst experiences was at a ringcraft class, where I took my 6mnth old gundog pup.  The trainer took her off me to demonstrate what to do about her pulling (ie jerk her using the lead).  My pup could see me there, and was desperately trying to get away from this nasty trainer to me (safety) and the more she tried to reach me, the more she got jerked around the neck by the trainer.  I was not going to remain a moment longer in that class, I got up in front of the entire class, went up to her and asked 'Can I have my dog back please?'.  I don't even remember what else I said, I know I was petrified and the blood was pounding in my ears and I felt like I was going to vom, but no way was this trainer doing this to my pup.  I took the dog off her and I walked out of that hall, immediately.  Then I heard a round of applause from everyone else watching, as I left.

Please do not let a trainer abuse your dog in front of you... well done for getting out of there.  Check out the APDT website for a list of force-free trainers.  And not all gundog trainers use force - you just have to look a bit more carefully.  I really hope this hasn't put you off gundog training, if you wanted to give that a go - it doesn't have to involve force.

If you join NEFRA ( Northern England Flatcoated Retriever  Club) they have regular training sessions, and can put you in touch with good trainers near you.      www. Nefra.co.uk

Jo

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Donna Inglis says: Please don't take your little flatcoat to that class again. They are very sensitive gentle dogs and do not do well if treated harshly. Making a puppy squeal is wrong and should be reported. Pups respond best to kindness and reward based training.

Mags Brayfield says: didnt happen at my bronze puppy class - my trainer uses positive /treat based rewards - we are now on gold and we love it and she has always been giddy at the start of class - they all are - we go a bit earlier so they can say hello to their friends and calm down before class starts - I love my dog and no one would ever ever make her squeal - name and shame - this trainer is bad :-[ ........... im getting another puppy soon and we will be using the same trainer again - I wouldnt dream of going anywhere else - you should be feeling the same way - not anxious or worried