I would be a very rich person if I was given £1 for every time I have heard:

"I only want a pet. I don't want to show or breed so it doesn't need to be KC registered."  or "It does not need to be health tested because I do not want to breed from it. I just want a pet".

When will people realise that just because they 'only want a pet' that they are still entitled to a well bred, sound dog which looks like the breed standard and that comes from health tested stock. When will the message get through that just because you 'only want a pet' that you should not settle for 'second best' or inferior stock. Even KC registered dogs are 'pets' first We know that KC registration is no guarantee of quality but it will stack the odds in your pets favour.

Sorry but programs like PDE and then the choice of BOB GSD bitch just confirm the general public's fears and they decide they do not want a sloping back, cripple of a dog and look to something bred in a barn on a farm.

Why pay £850 + and bring home a cripple when you can pay £300 for a farm bred, non-inbred, flat backed dog?

In many cases the type of shepherd I own and prefer are not bred in top kennels and/or health tested.....further compounding the market for BYB.

And yet they will pay top price for a designer crossbreed because they've fallen for the "it's healthier" line....

Saw recently on a pet selling page on FB...a lady was selling non tested GSD pups for £650. She was put down by another member saying it was too much for non kc pups. The reply came that there were GSD X Collie pups for sale on the same page at £550. If people are willing to play silly beggars with crosses then even pure bred, non tested pups will go up in price! There is a byb market because people will go and buy.

Breed councils have only themselves to blame - the GSD council has defended the 'banana back' trend that seems to be on the rise continually and says there is nothing wrong with the dog, judges continue to then place these dogs which end up at Crufts. The KC and Crufts come under fire but Jo Public doesn't realise that the KC does not set the standards. It is just the umbrella organisation for the breed councils.

Petitions are started, there is uproar in the papers and on social media.....slowly the outrage dies down and the catch 22 continues...meanwhile PDE jump on the band wagon and propose crosses or non registered dogs are healthier and people believe them....byb catch 22 grows....

In my breed the price of a puppy has been between £800 and £1000 for a couple of years now (not bad considering there's normally about 30 puppies born in the UK in a year) all fully health tested. I've just been told that a breeder,who hasn't bred a litter for many years, has sold her recent litter for £1500 a puppy!!! A huge leap in price, so I'll be interested to see what others in my breed do now, when selling their next litter...

If you then got another £1 for every person who complains that their dog doesn't look anything like the show dogs of its breed, you'd be richer still ... 'I only want a pet, I don't want to pay much, but I want it to look like a champion'. :D

We have 2 breeds . One sells for £500 the other  for £1000. When we have a litter we  put in exactly the same amount of work for both breeds. We do everything exactly the same. I cannot for the life of me understand why one should be "worth " twice what the other one is.
  We do not set the price the " market" does. I worry that families may be priced out of having a family dog as the prices go up and up.

> I worry that families may be priced out of having a family dog as the prices go up and up.

They are being ........and unfortunately pet seekers will not stop using backyard breeders until the price of well bred is equal or below byb prices and more available when they choose to look - because when people decide on a pup they don't expect to wait more than a month or two to get it, they have to pay for it, insure it, buy all its bits and pay for its first year of inoculation, flea and wormers and hopefully training classes with the increasing prices for all these things most especially insurance most cannot afford to pay the same price as a new hatchback for a family pet.........which is how things are now stacking up. 

Its clearly unfair since good breeders who go to the great expense involved in breeding correctly, choosing the right stud and paying where necessary, raising pups correctly including health tests of parents, vet and pup care for the litter, kc registering etc etc clearly should attract higher prices to cover the cost and the cost of the time put in ........but joe blogs down the street sees their preferred choice of dog costing £500-£1000 in the trade and free-ads - they will not be wrong to think they can barely afford that sort of dog with all the xtras entailed....let alone how much a better bred dog would be - assuming it would be between 50 and 100% more expensive........the first year easily adds up to over £3000.

Sad but true - money will dictate what people buy and where the price is already high many wont seek out those that are likely to be more expensive.

And... some people just cant wait - I know those who have lost their beloved dogs and never buy another one again because it hurt them and I know those who will go out and buy a dog as fast as possible as they cant bear the thought of not having a dog in the home.....  horses for courses.  Price and availability are the things pet buyers look for first and foremost.

It seems to me that it is not the quality of the breeding that determines the price. Some of the dogs we own are from the top kennel in the world. There is no better breeding out there , yet cross breeds and oodles are advertised for far more money.

I never understand this whole thing about 'it's just a pet, the parents don't need to be health tested.'  I would have thought, of all the different iterations of the dog (show, pet, military, herding, assistance etc) the pet dog is the one that needs to be the healthiest: it's the one that's (usually) got a family that wants it to live a long time, that doesn't want a sickly dog, that wants it to be able to cope with quiet days, busy days, outings, meeting lots of people, etc, etc, etc.  Yes, a working dog needs health a longevity too but how many pet dogs grow up with young kids who the parents wouldn't (I would hope) want to witness their pet falling ill and dying young?  Or simply adored by their adult owners?  The worst part about owning dogs is if they get sick and die, or end up with chronic problems.  It's heartbreaking, it's expensive, and in many cases, it's avoidable with the previous generation.

It just baffles me.

I'm also on another forum and a new poster came on with her goldendoodle puppy and announced that she wouldn't go to KC breeders because, and I quote, 'they are all snobs'. With that sort of attitude it can be incredibly difficult to get through to people who think this way, that they may not be doing the best thing getting a crossbreed pup from untested parents.

If someone want to call be a snob because I prefer breeds with their individual characteristics & traits, so be it, it's preferable to the inverted snobbery & false belief of the superior health & fitness, that so often goes with oodles & crossbreeds.

Someone I know wanted an all black GSD, but not KC reg as they have HD,epilepsy etc etc so she bought an all black(so she thought)unreg puppy off a farm.

Yes he has a "flat back"(not quite sure what that actually means), however he has a very odd head tilt & has had this since he was 5 months old, just before he started fitting & at 12 months old, started limping on one back leg & from time to.time a back leg<panosteitis" ?? Er no severe ED & HD in both elbows & both back legs. He is also huge way over 65cm tall. He has now started being very aggressive & he isn't actually all black either & is also an undercoatless long coat

He cost her £550 & I wouldn't like to guess how much her vet bill has come to.he has multiple seizures everyday, the breeder has told her, that there is no epilepsy or other health problems in her lines as they are not KC teg.

You do get what you pay for when buying a pup & caveat emptor if you buy an unreg non pedigree "pedigree" dog

Another thing that really pees me off is the term 'prices start from...'

The pups came out of the same dam, they were sired by the same stud...why do people think the blue ones or the tri colour brindles or pink spotted mr blobby tribute carriers are worth more? I know there was a time when bitches cost more but since most pedigrees are endorsed, that sort of negates that arguement of....'yes but you can breed her and make your money back.'

Its bad enough when colour determines prices but worse when the breeder prices a 'pick of the litter' higher than the rest...somehow, all this demonstrates to me is that you prize colour or size more than any other attribute and think less of the rest of the litter.

All my pups are priced the same regardless of sex, colour, litter size or size of the pups themselves because they are all as good as each other, they have all had the same start in life and all been raised and treated in the same way.

Now if I manage to breed a straight backed, show winning, sloping gaited, banana spined, long haired blue shepherd with liver spots, brindle ticking, gold pooping, german, english shepherd....you will find it listed on scumtree - available to the highest bidder....

> If you then got another £1 for every person who complains that their dog doesn't look anything like the show dogs of its breed, you'd be richer still ... 'I only want a pet, I don't want to pay much, but I want it to look like a champion'. :D

True, very true

And there's another trend these days - people advertising their dogs, purebred or not, at a certain figure (high) BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY WILL BE HAGGLING?    Really?   When did THAT start.   Start high and be beaten down - really?   When we were having the occasional litter, we priced them at what was the going rate at the time (prices since then - 1997, our last - have doubled in my breed).

I'm wondering how long, till I see a B.O.G.O.F. offer?

16 years ago someone buying a puppy from my mother said " discount for cash?....." I have rarely seen my mother stuck for words! She was flabbergasted!

Cash and idiots often part hands quickly for trinkets. It appears designer dogs are the new fashion and it's a want it now whatever the price just give it to me syndrome. Resulting in poorly bred puppies often with ill heath and often discarded like yesterday's papers.

Any "pet" brought should be researched and questions asked and of health etc etc. Or am I being thick and it's really oh how much ,ya got one and ok it will do!,?

Beggars belief

Facebook Reply:

Jo Cartwright says: Agree with everything here. I searched for a breeder for my "companion pet only GSD" for 2 years. My prerequisites were hip, elbow and haemophilia testing, and of course sound temperament with an insistence on meeting the dam and looking at several generations back which I was lucky enough to be supplied with . I finally found one that ticked all the boxes and waited a further 6 months before I finally got my healthy and mentally stable boy. He has endorsements on breeding and he will never be shown but I have confidence that he is as healthy, if not more so than a good percentage of the same breed out there. Yes, you pay more for a responsibly bred pup but in the long term, piece of mind and reduced heartbreak/vet bills should always be the top consideration no matter why you want them.

There were only 4 pups available from my last litter and 3 were booked very quickly. The 4th had a small hernia and so took a little longer to find the right home for - especially as I was planning on keeping her. I made it very clear that I would not sell 2 pups together at all but I was especially shocked when one prospective applicant stated that the one with the hernia would be difficult to place and said he'd have her and another pup but only if she was half price! Needless to say, he didn't get very far with his application. Apparently I should have been happy to sell them quickly and not have to keep them longer than 8 weeks.

My dogs are pets 365 show dogs however many days a year, as I write this one on couch on her back, mum curled on the the rest grandma on the chair, all pedigrees I bred younger two being only a pet does not make any difference in five corgi litters only one went as a show dog to a friend all the rest pets by our choice pets are loved and not discarded if they do not make the grade some of our owners came back for two and one couple three times for another one all wanted a pembroke corgi not a mix

Facebook reply:

Christine Culley says: Well said [admin].

The dog market is mad!!  However it is driven by public wishes and it seems that if you produce a cross of anything with anything and give it a fancy name it will sell and even better for loads of money. I don't think there is a way to stop this trend so maybe dog breeders should look outside the box and see if there is a way of bringing these crossbreds inside the responsible breeders envelope, I know we can all throw up our hands in horror but the "doodling" of our pure breeds is not stopping any time soon. I will stick my head above the parapet and say that not all cross bred breeders are awful BYB's there are a number who do health testing and are genuinely breeding nice healthy dogs as much as the pure breeders!  Shocking to contemplate but it is happening so maybe we should try to help and persuade as many people as possible to follow the pure breed guide lines although it might be difficult when the public sometimes perceive pure as unhealthy and crossed as healthy. I am crouching down now and waiting for the bullets to come my way

Tbh I agree mixedpack. It isn't going to go away anytime soon, so really needs to become better then it is now. Parent dogs being health tested and so on.
Personally I wouldn't buy anything crossed with a poodle as cute as some of them are because of the often unmanageable coats. Much prefer to regularly groom my high shedding breed then have to go to the groomers every couple of months. I think the paying public aren't terribly aware of the difficult coat issues with doodle crosses, they think they don't shed and the coat doesn't need an awful lot of care.
So, yes, more responsible breeding and information on the care of all these doodle pups.

It's a fallacy to say, "we do not set the price: the market does". It is up to the owner of the dam to set the price and make sure there are good homes out there for the pups.

I bred my first litter last year. My bitch was a proven worker and I had a list of people who wanted a pup of her type, all of whom I knew personally. I had seen the way their behaved week in week out on the shooting field and I knew how they treated their dogs. As it happened, we were lucky enough to whelp and rear 10 healthy puppies - all of whom (including my own) are now in homes with people I have total faith in and they will all do the task for which they were bred.

I charged what I thought was fair. The cost of the stud fee, plus the materials we bought to make the whelping room and the extra feed and vaccs and chips divided by number of pups (including the one I kept) This came to around £300 less than the 'going rate' for a dog with the kind of breeding ours have. We didn't cut corners or skimp on anything. The vet remarked and several experienced gundog people remarked they were among the healthiest, well-reared and good natured pups they had seen. There is no way I would have advertised, or let any of my pups go to pet homes. We don't trial or show and I'm sure by some people's definitions, we would be classes as BYBs, but we have 10 happy dogs and 10 happy owners.

What I disagree with is speculative breeding, or breeding to cash in on a trend. That's not confined to one type of owner or one breed or corssbreed. It is prevalent accross work, show and 'pet only' breeders and it is just plain greedy!

I go for the long game...I give away or at reduced price many of my pups. For the remainder I then charge a similar price to those who don't spend half as much on health testing and half as much as I could sell them for.
I try to break even over a decade...hasn't happened yet but I try.
Last litter was a financial disaster flying in an overseas dog and only letting one go....

Also your time and expertise should be worth something too, over and above your rearing costs which can vary hugely litter to litter.

> it seems that if you produce a cross of anything with anything and give it a fancy name it will sell and even better for loads of money

Which is why I have decided to make my fortune this year.  I shall buy myself a bull breed bitch, mated at first season obviously.  Mated to a Shih Tzu I reckon I could charge £2,000 if I called them Bullshihtz.

Have you thought about a Shitz poo?

There is an advert on a fb page for a lilac merle bulldog bitch with the price tag of 'make us an offer' that has me steaming with rage. I was disgusted enough to write a very simple response about putting other qualities above 'rare' coloration only to be told that if I wasn't going to make an offer then it was none of my business (not by the breeder BTW).

Since when does colour come over health, lines, temper, behaviour etc?

obviously the breeder cares less about the home on offer and more about the highest bidder...

I guess I should have just kept my mouth shut

rant over....

> Have you thought about a Shitz poo?

Plenty of those round here, and I make of point of calling them Shiht-poos too