Hi, I have a Mastiff puppy and would like to have a go at showing him. The first champ show he is eligible for only has a PD, not MPD class. He will only be just over 6 months and will be up against pups up to 12 months. Would you still enter or wait?

A good judge will take your puppy's age into consideration. Up to you, it wouldn't bother me though

I always start out at Open shows first. Much less pressure on you. They are a good place to get a pup used to the hustle and bustle of a show. The judge will ask you how old your pup is and should take that into consideration.

I much prefer just launching into champ shows. Far more space, quieter, less crowding and bigger rings - especially for big breeds :)

I come from a generation where we'd always do a few Open shows before even considering going to Champ.shows.   If a puppy showed promise, placed well at that level, then, and only then, would we move up to Champ shows.   I realise this isn't done so much these days however.   If there is no MPD class at the show you'd like to enter, then much as yes of course you risk going up against older puppies, but there may well also be other younger puppies in that class, who'd otherwise have gone into MPD.   It's up to you to decide whether your puppy is looking 'the part' already, bearing in mind that although the judge may well ask the age of your puppy and take that into account, is it worth putting him out there when he's really not ready?   Reputation counts so experience apart, is it worth being chucked out with the 'rubbish' at the first few shows?   My line was late maturing and I had a young male out in the Puppy classes, standing against others who were 'fliers'.  As a result, he stood down the line - so I pulled him until he was looking better.

I am a nobody in my breed, so I didn't have to worry about reputation going into the ring, though I hoped not to show my breeder up!

My slow maturing boy was 6 months old at his, and my, first show, which was a champ show, where he won a large, strong class against older, more mature pups in a Puppy Dog class. He was the youngest in the class, and his litter brother took second.

Don't believe you will be at an automatic disadvantage.

> I am a nobody in my breed, so I didn't have to worry about reputation going into the ring

Not YOUR reputation, but that of your puppy - maybe.   It is better however, to go in hope, rather than expectation.   And why not ask the breeder of this puppy for her opinion before taking him into the ring?   If nothing else, you could be saving your entry/travelling money if in her view, the puppy really isn't ready.  Just my opinion.

It does seem to be the done thing nowadays to bypass Open Shows and just enter Championship shows, a shame as it's where I made some very good friends when starting out. I suppose it does depend on your particular breed, mine is numerically small so it can be quite "clicky".... I always make sure that I attend any Championship shows when my puppy owners are just starting out, a friendly face and someone to talk to is important in those first few shows.
The other downside of exhibitors now missing out on Open Show experience is that it makes it a lot harder for up and coming judges to get their numbers to go up the judging list. We have a situation now where it's the same judges all the time at Championship shows, which then means lower entry numbers etc etc. We should all support Open shows.

With entries falling everywhere, unless it is a numerically very strong breed it is very unlikely to ever have MPD or MPB at a championship show.  With my main breed we only have one show that offers it and that is LKA. Most Open shows only have few breed classes and I never enter AVNSC, but when there are breed classes I always try to support them. Hence a puppy's first show can be going straight into Junior, PG or even Open at an Open show. Few have puppy classes at all. In fact one of my Papillons had to enter his first ever show in Open as there was only the one class. He still took BP, BOB and PG4.

I asked the breeder and she would be happy for me to show him anywhere :)

And why not ask the breeder of this puppy for her opinion before taking him into the ring?

Certainly wouldn't hurt but honestly I wouldn't get too hung up on entering MPD over PD as in this discussion, forgetting the open vs champ stuff. If the OP is planning on showing anyway I just don't think there will be an issue entering PD.

Just go and enjoy yourselves, hope for everything and expect nothing, remember every "somebody" was once a "nobody" and when your dog does well it isn't down to you but him!! Good luck

Couldn't agree more Mixed pack!
As long as you enjoy the day and more importantly your pups does, that's what counts.

> I asked the breeder and she would be happy for me to show him anywhere :)

   Has she seen him lately?    That takes me back to our first hound, who came from a leading breeder at the time   She loved seeing puppies she'd bred in the ring, regardless.   Of course, we thought we had the next Crufts BIS when in fact, he really was just a pet - and we had to learn the hard way.... coming out with the rubbish, until we realised for ourselves what we really had!    And made certain our second hound WAS 'show potential', even if at only 10 weeks, that was all he could be.

She sees pics of him all the time. We didn't buy him to show tbh, I'd just like to give it a go as I used to show and breed Bullmastiffs. If he never won a thing he would still be the dog we bought him for = a pet from athletic lines with a perfect temperament.

Used to do a lot of Open shows, not any more over last 8 years or so.

They are so crowded in cramped venues, tiny rings the dogs can't move in, and having to take crates. 

At champ shows you have a base (your bench) where the dog is off the ground, and you only need to take a bag with your stuff and the dogs.

It's the only place you will get any meaningful completion in all but the most popular and numerically strong breeds.

I want to show at least two dogs in two or more classes under more than one judge at an Open show.

Frankly I don't want to pay for an opinion of a judge who probably knows little about my breed, has even less interest, and so often there is only 1 class I can enter maybe two, and I am not going to go all that way with one .

I appreciate the why when it comes to not doing Open shows, but it's still a pity - not only because if they don't get a good entry, these shows/All Breed Clubs will cease to exist - but the point about judging experience is a valid one.   Upcoming judges need somewhere to 'do their time' before moving up to being able to judge Champ. shows.    The way the judging system works is new judges do need the ability to judge X-number of dogs to gain experience.   If they don't where will the Champ.show judges of the future come from?   As for needing a crate - we worked from the car at Open show level and only rarely took a crate into the venue.   Clearly the demise of the Open show is not far away unless people did support them.

> As for needing a crate - we worked from the car at Open show level

won't leave dogs in car, and you'd miss your class if you blink let alone go to the car to change dogs, and of course weather?

Student judges at champ shows, the experience/competition or lack of to be gained at Open shows is pitiful, in all but the most high numbered breeds, especially as so many think champions should be excluded, restricted classification reduces entries further.

Frankly I don't want to pay good money for somebody to gain numbers and practice on us, I pay for an opinion based on knowledge and interest in the breed.

Prospective judges in my breed spend a fortune trying to get numbers at own expense (many can't afford the money or time) for years an then once awarding CC's will judge about every third year any more and they get the same entry).

I do think the Open show scene has too many shows at poor venues, and people are not prepared to pay entry fees that would be needed (I know I won't pay more than £5 to £7 for first class) to secure suitable venues at the high prices such places want, even if they will even allow dogs.

> won't leave dogs in car, and you'd miss your class if you blink let alone go to the car to change dogs, and of course weather?<br />

Do you seriously think we'd leave our dogs in the car!!!!        I said we work from the car which means our base was our car as opposed to lugging a crate(s) in.   We'd have our hounds ringside when being judged.    I guess if this continues - people not supporting Open shows, the future for Champ shows in terms of judges who know what they are doing, is bleak.   Having said that, I'd only support an Open show with a judge I know is working towards being able to award CCs.    All hyperthetical now as I'm retired from all of that

Frankly I don't want to pay good money for someone to gain numbers and practice on us. I pay for an opinion based on knowledge and interest in the breed.

Sorry but I find that remark quite offensive. As a person who has judged a couple of shows, having been in my breed for over 10 years and shown my dogs with some success. I do not think that I am practicing when I judge. I have done courses on construction and movement and also attended seminars on breed standard. Everyone has to start somewhere.

But not on me if they have no track record of interest or knowledge of my breed.

If you do not support up and coming judges, there will be no future shows. We all need to support open and champ shows. I have shown under judges who do not specialise in my breed. It is all experience for me and for my dogs. If you just go to shows to win................

I've been going under all rounders and those who wish to move up the listing for my breed even if they don't own or want to own them. I also like doing stakes for top all rounders as well, if they happen to judge my breed then ill have an idea if they like my dog or not.

> If you just go to shows to win................

Winning is the last priority, nice if you have the quality animal.  No I go to shows for a valid opinion, I can't afford many shows so pick the ones with judges who have a real interest and knowledge of the breed.

For my numerically small breed it means championship shows with or without CC's (actually prefer without as they are cheaper), as they are the only shows with a representative entry.  No point winning on your own which is what will happen at all but a few select Open shows (breed club, Nordic breeds).

When I first started showing I did a lot of Local Open shows (getting lifts with friends from ringcraft), but as the decades have rolled on, finances have tightened, ringcraft no longer close by, I am no longer happy to throw my money away on judges who barely know what my breed is, even when there are breed classes.

Affordable venues are hard to come by resulting in overcrowded halls, small rings and long periods of nothing to do but wait, with no longer lost of people you know from ringcraft to socialise with, see how they have done, makes for a boring day. 

I have been tempted over the last 10 years, with a new puppy to show, to enter a few more Local Opens, what do I find I can probably enter one or maybe two classes, not going to use the fuel to show just one dog in one or two classes, but with having a pup once every three years and exhibits winning out of Post graduate, leaves me often with only an Open class to enter, and nothing for a  second or third dog.