So, we have quite a healthy waiting list considering a mating hasn't happened yet (15 new homes on the list).  I'm sure when I get more info from them, some will not be suitable, and some will evaporate - but still, it's a good start.

There was a thread on a local FB group tonight, where someone advertised their bitch, asking for a local stud.  The sort of ad where full health testing wasn't asked for and no show or performance qualifications wanted, someone wanting to breed their female (seemingly right now!), just to have puppies. 

One of the people on my waiting list (a pet home) said they couldn't help with suggesting a stud, but they would be interested in having a puppy!!!

I kind of feel a bit peed off that here we are, using a fully health tested stud on our equally tested girl, and the stud having a heck of a lot of qualifications on him and us travelling a huge distance for this - and this person seemingly is happy to equally have a pup from someone who hasn't bothered with full health testing and doesn't really care even who the stud is (as at this point, there wasn't one when she said that!), and will just use a stud up the road, and mum isn't fully tested and has no quals. 

I would like to remove this person from the waiting list - would that be a reasonable thing to do?  To email and say why?  That I read their post and clearly they don't want a pup from our particular and specific breeding, they just want any old pup, and don't value some of the lengths we are going to?  Or is that being a bit unrealistic in terms of my expectations for new homes???

I would definitely let them know!

Nowt as queer as folk.
I spent a great deal of time explaining all this to my hairdresser who Totally agreed with me...I found her a great litter to look at fully health tested..rare as hens teeth.
Next visit ....she'd bought a totally untested one from the free adds.....ditch her Id say.

I'm assuming they are just after a pet, often people not realy involved in the dog world don't really know or put much importance into the work good breeders do, they just want their lovely pet. Doesn't mean they can't be a good home though.
Although I would question how fickle they are if they can't Waite For a well bred one as I'm guessing you have told them about the testing ext you have done so they will know about the tests.

I had someone on my list, I was told they were after one year's ago and were on a few peoples lists but as there was no litters at that time rather than weight they went out and got a completely diffrent breed. I accepted them onto my list and was trying to arrange to meet them, I knew they were on a few others lists as well. My litter didn't happen and they ended up adopting a rescue dog not that long before they got a puppy from one of the other breeders. They still seem like a nice home even if they were impatient when getting one.

I'd email them and remind them what testing the breed should have and how important it is to only get a puppy from tested parents. Then arrange a meet so you can get a feel on them if you haven't met them yet.

If you are feeling brave type on fb

Have you had all the relevant health tests done before searching for a stud ?

Or the easier option get a friend to ask

I'm desperate for a pup, have all the health tests been done ?

I agree you can't always judge Joe Public by their actions they MIGHT be perfect owners.

Not all the general public appreciate breed lines or even the importance of health tests.

I've had many people join my lists and drop out...it happens.
Let's face it if they 'only want a pet' they will quite possibly buy the cheapest and easiest to acquire, and at the end of the day it's their choice.

If you don't want them to have a puppy because they don't appreciate what you're trying to achieve, don't let them.....simple.

Try not to take it too personally. In my breed litters only happen when a breeder wants a puppy for themselves. Most pet buyers just want a puppy and although we can inform them of what they should be looking for in a breeder that tends to go out the window when the possibility of an available puppy arises. You have a large enough waiting list to not worry.

>I'm assuming they are just after a pet, often people not really involved in the dog world don't really know or put much importance into the work good breeders do, they just want their lovely pet. Doesn't mean they can't be a good home though.

Absolutely this. I wouldn't set any kind of store by having this sort of name on a waiting list, very few of them will wait for a particular pup/breeder, so I would evaluate your 15 names and potential evaporation on that basis. Unfortunately, to most of the general public it still seems that 'a dog is a dog' and health tests are for those who want to breed and show.

As Jo said though, doesn't mean they can't be a great home for a pup, so evaluation of that is a separate issue if they still don't have a pup by the time you have some available.

Ok, so I shouldn't remove them...  I guess I just felt kind of 'betrayed' when I read it!  It would be one thing for them to email me and say they had found a pup from somewhere else, it's another thing to read on FB them actively pursuing crappy (IMO!) pet breedings!! 

I'm sure they didn't realise I was in the group.  I did post on the thread - but not in response to that person, just a general post about health testing and stud dogs having qualifications. 

I really struggle to get through to pet buyers this concept, and it really depresses me.  If someone owns a bitch, as long as they have minimal health tests done, ANYONE can approach a fantastic top stud owner and use him on her (assuming the pedigrees work together), so I just don't get why people use any old dog up the road.... It totally baffles me.  Even just thinking about attempting to sell the puppies, it is far better to be able to advertise a litter from a really well qualified stud than Fido up the road(!).  I don't get it...

Sadly I get it, money and laziness.

We are fighting an uphill battle when even the simple concept of never buy a puppy unless you see its Mother hasn't fully sunk in yet.

Dead easy for byb to simply say health tests are designed to line vets pockets and only really for show people.

General public always like a bargain and definitely don't like to wait or travel.

If someone owns a bitch, as long as they have minimal health tests done, ANYONE can approach a fantastic top stud owner and use him on her (assuming the pedigrees work together), so I just don't get why people use any old dog up the road.... It totally baffles me.

They can APPROACH, but a GOOD stud owner would say no. It's no different to refusing puppy buyers. There is no way a pet breeder would come anywhere near any of my boys with a bitch, and I regularly say no. I could have made a lot of money, especially with my toy breed, but the only person I've ever said yes to that wasn't me myself, was another known and trusted show breeder. As a responsible breeder, I don't want sleepless night wondering what's happening the pups born to my boys, where I have no say on who buys them.

Wow, you are v responsible Goldmali!  I don't think many stud owners - even those which are highly successful - are that picky, in my breed!

. its a shame a lot of people arnt half as responsible as goldmali . Maybe we wouldn't be in such a mess if they were. also to say I would feel as you are rabid in your circumstances rightly or wrongly. fortunately for me I don't breed but do want a dog from a great breeder who does all the right things

Well, i'm a potential owner so apply liberal salt as appropriate!

But...how faithful are you to your potentials?  If you have 8 potential homes, 8 available puppies and then another potential pops up who is a well-known/regarded show home, would you bump a pet home off your list in order to home a pup in the show home?  Some breeders would.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that, per se, but it works both ways.  The pet owner in question no doubt likes your breed, is aware you breed nice dogs, and would like one of your pups.  But they are probably aware that for a multitude of reasons they might not get one.  And they're not "dog people" so they probably don't realise half of what you do.

I contacted breeders of a completely different breed at first - talking to them and meeting their dogs was one of the ways it became clear to us that that breed wouldn't be a good fit for us.  We then looked at appealing crosses with that breed, which, when we came to our senses (!) led us finally to the breed we are set on now.  We're not "dog people" - had lots of pets but mongrels and rescues.  So it took us a while to get to grips with "breeds" and their various attributes.

We have found a breeder we really like, who has beautiful dogs.  I will be honest - i have NO IDEA of their breeding lines!  I trust that the breeder is very capable and is breeding selectively for healthy, correct puppies.  But beyond that, I have no idea and it makes little difference to me if the appropriate stud is in the same kennels, or 2000 miles away. (I should note however that i am only on one waiting list, have been there many many months due to one thing and another preventing a litter happening, and have no plans at this stage to look elsewhere and am certainly not courting randoms on FB for a puppy!).  However if we do not end up with a puppy from this breeder this summer i might have to begin to look elsewhere, because the stars are aligned this year for raising a puppy and next year might not be ideal.  I really really hope that doesn't happen, as i really like the breeder.

I'm sure if i were looking for a dog to show or breed i would be more interested and appreciate it more but for a pet i'm most interested that the puppy will be healthy, even tempered and well socialised.  And a lot of potential pet owners don't even care about the latter!

It depends what you want from your owners.  It can be frustrating to be selling puppies to people who are pretty clueless about the efforts you've gone to to bring a well bred, healthy, even-tempered dog to them, but every puppy you DO place in such a home is one less backyard bred or farmed puppy placed.  It might feel thankless when they are approaching randoms like this on FB BUT the rewards you reap for the dogs and the breed remain, whether acknowledged or not.  So i think if i were you i'd avert my eyes, maybe put them down near the bottom of your list or investigate them more thoroughly when the time comes, but don't say anything or ditch them just yet.

> I don't think many stud owners - even those which are highly successful - are that picky, in my breed!

I'm ultra picky, have a popular toy breed, and regularly say no.  When somebody wants to use my boy "because it is only a short journey" the answer is no.  One person I refused just because I'm disgusted at how young she sells her pups.  I could go on with reasons to be honest.  My boy, my choice.

I'd always hope to get the most promising pup of each sex into a home willing to show, (as I can't keep them all myself), and potentially be in the gene pool for the next generation, otherwise why breed.

But that said most puppies go to purely pet owners and fi no-one comes along who wants to show for the pups with star quality, and I can't keep them, then they too go to pet homes.

So in some litters the last pups to be homed (if not all spoken for by birth) are usually the ones with most potential.

Once pups are born and the people on the list confirm they are going ahead then no I would not then dump a person who had been waiting for some late comer wanting to show.

I appreciate the people who have been waiting on my list for possibly many months.

At the moment we just have a long-list - not vetted yet.  After the mating has happened (fingers crossed), then I will send out a questionnaire and meet people (if the questionnaire is ok).  If they pass all that, it means that in principle I'd be happy to sell them a puppy.  Obviously I don't know how many puppies there will be of what colour or sex, so I can't guarantee anyone anything.  And of course if people find another puppy in all this, from elsewhere - as I said, I'd want them to tell me.

Once the litter is born (or a few days after), I will let people know if I have a pup for them, but not which particular one - I won't decide that till they are nearing 7wks.  At this point, no, I would not ditch an owner if a competition home came along - because I've told them they can have one.  But if someone did back out, and there was a competition home enquiring, then who gets what would be adjusted accordingly to enable the right puppy to be in the right home.

I don't ask or expect people to be only on my list, but I do feel that part of what might appeal to them, is the humongous number of qualifications of the stud dog and that both parents are fully health-tested - and that this might be worth waiting for, more than something crappier available sooner.  And I do have to weigh up if someone's knowledge of the breed and of puppies generally is sufficient for me to entrust them with a pup, if they are not aware of the importance of health-testing and don't value the efforts a responsible breeder goes to - and how to find one.... So it does count against them in that respect....

Late coming into this thread due to a scarey emergency perforated bowel Friday!  Anyways

I have always discarded adverts for puppies on fb/newspapers/flyers! Yes seriuosly in a community hall. I have gone by word of mouth, kc list or the breed club for my current waiting list.
It's a two way trust,respect bond you build together breeder and prospective puppy owner for a long long time. For me a good breeder should be not just for the acquiring puppy, pay and begone  BUT a long standing relationship to help,advise and even welcome back their puppy even many years later say for ill health/death or neglect from owner,

I am on one list only have been for 8 months. Mating was hopefully for May possibly.I would not have dreamed of looking at a mother possible ready soon  not tested at all litter.
I have kept  my side of agreement with breeder, email,phone calls,update re our lifestyle of any changes. I have had no response thou as promised in February.  I remain committed to this breeder and health wise hope we go ahead.. Yes I've drafting email to update her re my situation and if we feel we should postpone I would inform her not just melt away.

Apologies re type as in dim light and now need my med,

Good luck rabid and wishing you a safe delivery for your girl.

I don't think you need to contact these people, to be honest.   I'm afraid people will always look at other sources for a new puppy, as they are actually entitled to do - it's happened to me when I've called back to advise I have a litter on the ground to be told, many times, that the people on my list have either bought elsewhere (so much for wanting MY bloodlines) or even bought a different breed.    People on a waiting list are just that - there is no commitment on either side to provide a puppy.   And who knows, you may not have enough puppies to fill those on your waiting list in any case.    Wanting people on your list to tell you if they'd bought elsewhere?    If only.

ps    I don't think it's for you to 'warn' anybody about the failings of what another breeder is doing.    That could land you in a heap of trouble if the other breeder got wind of you criticising their stock.  As always with buying a puppy it is 'buyer beware'.

I understand what you mean Rabid and I think I would be tempted to advise them to look elsewhere for a puppy if they can't appreciate the time/effort you are putting into this.

MamaBas said "ps    I don't think it's for you to 'warn' anybody about the failings of what another breeder is doing.    That could land you in a heap of trouble if the other breeder got wind of you criticising their stock.  As always with buying a puppy it is 'buyer beware'."

Sorry but I disagree. We need to educate people about what they should be looking for in a well bred, well reared puppy. If you discuss in general terms, and it happens to be the truth, why would you be in trouble? (Even if you are direct in your remarks, it still happens to be the truth. I managed last week to get one well known puppy farmer in my breed removed from a site because, when I revealed her history, everyone could see she was telling complete lies about her dogs.). There is such a thing as The Sale of Goods Act, so it's not buyer beware and that's the end of it.

At the moment we just have a long-list - not vetted yet.

Personally I don't think this is the way to go. You could end up with a list with nobody suitable on. Nobody gets added to my list unless I have made enough enquiries to feel satisfied they can go on the list.

>Personally I don't think this is the way to go.

Yes, I think we might do things differently next time, but as this is our first time I'm sure we're not going to do it all perfectly... We thought/think that most people are going to back out for one reason or another - more people, the closer you get to 'reality' of 'here's a puppy'.  So we'd be wasting a lot of time to vet everyone at this point, when she hasnt' even been mated and might not get pregnant (and so they might all go off elsewhere). 

At the same time, I've done some unofficial research of my own via Facebooking their names and reading what I can on their public FB page, and some of what I've learnt there (or deduced - which might not be accurate!) has led me to probably rule out some people on the basis of being pregnant/having babies or toddlers.  However, this isn't something they have told me themselves, so I can't go to them 'Um, I've Facebooked you and it looks like you're pregnant, so I'm sorry, you can't be on our list'.  So I've kind of figured I'll have to wait till they do a questionnaire and tell me this, so I can rule them out.  But then I do feel a bit bad if they are on the list and I already know they aren't a home for me... 

Which is all to say that yes, I think next time we will have to vet people before putting them on the list...

With my last litter I had 14 people interested in a puppy. These were ones already checked out, questionnaires completed and returned and most had either visited us or we'd met up for a walk so they could meet our dogs. When I emailed everyone to say my girl had come into season, 12 dropped out. All for different reasons.

As your girl hasn't already been mated, why don't you send out your questionnaire now so you have a better idea of who will be suitable for one of your puppies.

The very last people who I would want to sell to are the show / competition people.  I always wanted my treasured puppies to go to people who would keep them for life, whatever they turned out like. If a puppy is purchased for showing / breeding it will almost certainly be discarded if it does not look right or fails its health tests. I never wanted that for my puppies. I want everyone to whom I sell a puppy to have the same ethos as me: once you own an animal, it stays for life. I expect you find that unrealistic.

Sorry to have deviated from the original thread. I would cross them off as it sounds as though you can afford to be picky.

If you have so many interested why compromise?
They can get a cheap, un tested puppy every day of the week.
Let those..to whom health is important, have your puppies. I find it important that my owners share and appreciate the reasoning behind all the care I've taken to produce their puppy...it is THEY who spread the word about the seriousness of puppy buying.

I do think it does depend on the show and competition home though. There are many homes where the dog hasn't made it and they remain pets which they were first and foremost. Yes there are who just sell them on like a commodity but there are probably more who don't. I turned a few people down because I didn't believe that if the pup didn't turn out how they expected whether it was results in the ring or health tests the dog would stay with them.

> At the moment we just have a long-list - not vetted yet.<br /><br />Personally I don't think this is the way to go. You could end up with a list with nobody suitable on. Nobody gets added to my list unless I have made enough enquiries to feel satisfied they can go on the list.

Yes, the same thing here. As the enquiries come in, if some one says they are willing to wait until my litter is ready, they then get the third degree before going on the list. The ones who don't meet my criteria, are told so they can go elsewhere. This way I don't have a long list, just ones who tick my boxes

If you are not happy with a person enquiring about puppies, what do you actually say to them?

I was so paranoid about finding the right breeder before I got Isla and worrying if they would find us suitable given that we are getting older and the breed does require to be well exercised, that I was almost taking along medical records along with pictures and pedigrees of our previous dogs.

My more recent enquiries haven't been willing to wait but in the past depending on what they 'fail' on I just say they don't meet all my criteria.

> I always wanted my treasured puppies to go to people who would keep them for life,

That to me is a pre-requisite, but someone keen to become more involved in the breed is also needed as otherwise where are the future breeders and exhibitors to come from and also where are you going to go to get your lines back if something goes wrong with your current breeding stock?

You only need a pyo, and an unacceptable health test result and that's your whole line down the pan.

Also you may want to bring in something else of your own breeding in a couple of generations.

it does depend on the show and competition home though. There are many homes where the dog hasn't made it and they remain pets which they were first and foremost. Yes there are who just sell them on like a commodity but there are probably more who don't.

My 1st GSD wasn't registered, we started doing a few exemption shows and got hooked, carried on till he was 7½, lost him aged 8¾.
2nd GSD  - decent breeding, papers, health testing etc so we could do 'proper' shows, did one when he was 7 mths (open show) did another 2 during the next 7-8 months and he HATED it, end of showing.
I would no more have thought of selling him than I would of selling one of the kids (actually selling one of the kids could have been tempting at times !!!) Lost him at 10 yrs old.
Current one is 8½ and never got back to wanting to show but made sure he was from health tested parents.

> If you are not happy with a person enquiring about puppies, what do you actually say to them?

For me if something concerns me about someone asking to go on my list I'll discuss it with them. I had someone apply who sounded perfect (had the breed before, active, ect) untill it turned out they would be starting a master's degree at the same time the planned litter would be ready to go home. I work at a college and see the work for the degree the students have to do and I've done the foundation degree myself and those would be less work than the one they were going to do. We had a chat about it and they agreed that it probably wasn't a good time to get a puppy untill they knew how busy they would be.
They thanked me for talking to them about it and were happy to see I cared where the puppies would be going.

Well, I do take slight umbrage (because I like that word!) at the idea that a competition home means a dog isn't 'for life'. 

I'd consider us ourselves to be a competition home.  Our first dog (different breed) had ShChs as sire AND dam, and we traipsed about the UK with her to champ shows, supervised and guided by our breeder - who was also at most of the same shows. 

As she grew up, it turned out she was far too small to be shown - she was within breed average (just) - but the fashion is/was for massive dogs at the top end of the range, so we didn't get anywhere.  After about a year of showing, we quit. 

Determined to compete with her in some way, we focussed more on the working side of things.  This suited her a lot as well, and she went on to be quite successful at working tests, winning out of Novice and Graduate - and I even ran her in a few field trials. 

This was our first dog, ever.  She's now 11 yo.  She's been with us for life, and when she couldn't do one thing, we just found another thing to do with her!

Our second dog had hard mouth, so we couldn't compete with her at all - and her breed is still on the import register so can't really be shown.  She's still with us too, at 9yo... We just worked her on shoots, beating.  I'd never give up a dog willingly - they are part of the family.  (And as a breeder I'd make sure people knew that their contract stated the dog should be returned to me, if they couldn't keep her/him - and my details as breeder would remain on the microchip..)

Point being:  Every home is unique and has to be assessed individually for strengths and weaknesses, and it's simply untrue that a competition home means a dog isn't for life... I would hope to get a sense of that sort of home, by asking what previous dogs they have had, what has happened to them and where are they now.... all on the questionnaire!

I'm quite successful in my breed, champions here and abroad but my sofa is full of oldies.
Sad to be tarred with the same brush.

I also found it hard to be tarred with that brush. You can't generalise like that.
My biggest worry is that whatever "pet" home I choose for a puppy, is that I got it wrong and the pup ends up in trouble and has to be re-homed.
I turn down loads of homes and hopefully get it right. My sofa too has and is full of dogs that never quite made it!

> We need to educate people about what they should be looking for in a well bred, well reared puppy.

Totally agree that it may help to educate novices re what a good puppy looks like/should be, but to criticise another breeder and their bloodlines specifically would be a no-no.   I know I'd not appreciate hearing my stock being dissed!   But advise in general terms - for sure.

And I'm sorry, buying a puppy IS very much buyer beware, even if there are organisations to use if needed.

Yep have owned 10 (6 currently) and only three made it and the first of those was my 4th dog and the generation. 

Realistically my two younger adult bitches won't make it,(Now 5 and nearly 4 years old) and I can still kid myself and hope with the current pups who is 10 months old.

sorry, I'm coming to this thread late and I'm sorry for the long post but can't help adding this..

of our recent litter of pups ,I had earmarked a particular bitch to keep on. Having a serious discussion with the husband, we both decided that this year would be the year we would try for a baby and to me it seemed impossible to put 14-16 months of solid training in to a pup whilst being diabetic, pregnant and under constant supervision of the hospital. We were already keeping 6 pups for his training program so we decided it best to home her now rather than 6 months down the line when it would be harder to find her a suitable home. It had also transpired that she had a small hernia where mum had over licked the umbilicus. This would not have prevented me from keeping her had circumstances been different.

I already had a lot of interest. Two applicants lied and were soon off the waiting list. One family had contacted me and after some prodding admitted to having heard about my pups but had opted to choose a cheaper pup about an hour further away. They had then had a call from the breeder, stating that one of her older dogs had jumped down from a height, onto the pup and broken it's leg. She would either offer them the pup at a discount price - but only if they stayed with her vet or a refund.

I was honest from the beginning about the hernia and passed on the info from my vet - no surgery required, simple massaging would help it pop back in and it would heal over without a trace. I sent them pictures of it, the medical transcript and even the vet's number to talk direct. They decided to go ahead. I do not take deposits and as the pup was almost 8 weeks old we had an agreement that if I was unhappy I could refuse the sale of the pup and they too could equally walk away without committing.. On the day of collection they failed to arrive. I had the other 2 pups going on the same day and had allotted time slots. They had emailed an hour before they should have arrived to say they had changed their minds and wanted a 100% perfect pup.

These people had been sent a questionnaire, we had exchanged phone calls, I had google earthed them and had a reference from their vet. Thankfully I had the older gentleman waiting on the list too and he knew his chances of getting a pup were low due to the number wanting one. He said he's wait it out and sure enough, he did.

My point is, that it doesn't matter how great people seem on the phone or via email etc, you don't really know what you're getting until after the pups have gone. I have done everything I can possibly think of to ensure the well being of my litter and the pups that were going to pet homes and thankfully my chosen parents are all wonderful and are keeping in touch. It transpires that the family got a pup a week later, from further away, costing more but with constantly weepy eyes. Apparently they asked around after sending me that email and realised the hernia wasn't a big deal after all.....still wouldn't have got a pup from me in any case!

Totally agree, gsd owner.  There is absolutely no way of making 100% sure that the new home is 'good' - there are just ways to reduce the risk and to eliminate some which obviously aren't 'good'. 

Even after the pups have gone, it can be hard to keep track of how people are doing.