Hello again! 

Is it true that it can be counterproductive to allow a female to be mated "too many" times?  I have been told that this can trigger the female somehow to produce fewer rather than more puppies.  If you have, as I do, your male at home, then it is tempting to let him do more or less as he pleases. Robin has now mated Nimue on day 14 and 15 (yesterday and today), and I want him to wait now for 48 hours before I consider letting him mate her again on day 17, as he will undoubtedly want to do.   Should I allow this?  Or should we stop after the two matings of yesterday and today (a full 24 hours apart)?  Is there some virtue or advantage to limiting the number of times  matings take place?  (Naturally one must consider the male and not allow him to overtax himself, I realise.)  I've never gotten a good answer to this question.  I HAVE learned, however, that it is really not true that mating over many days could produce puppies with grave discrepancies in age.  That could only happen in a so-called "split heat", an unusual occurrence, mostly in very young bitches.  Normally the eggs are there after ovulation, are viable after maturity for 48 hours or so, and that was it.

The biggest reason why most would settle for two, or even just one, good mating is because the more you allow, assuming the bitch will be in standing heat for a significant number of days even (or the male interested - experienced males often seem to know they have already done their job, perhaps via a significant change in the scent?) the more difficult it is to know the due date.

Personally I'd take two, and leave it at that - you don't want a young stud dog to be put off should the bitch have gone over and see him off, either.

My girl missed twice before taking. Repro vet said go and mate her now from progesterone test and I did but left here there for a few days and they did two more matings, definately didn't have a small litter born that's for sure

In nature the pair would mate over the whole receptive period.  If they are under the same roof there is no harm for them to mate each day and it is unlikely to be over more than 5 or 6 days.

If the dog is elderly then perhaps limiting him to alternate days allows the sperm levels to replenish.

It is certainly best to mate until the dog and bitch loose interest as you then know you haven't mated too early.

Hello Barbara

Thanks.  This certainly seems logical to me as well!  My male is (only) 4.5 years old, so I'll let him go for it.  I've heard so many conflicting opinions and bits of advice that I am very glad to hear this from you, which to my mind makes good sense.

Speaking of "elderly" males, how old is "elderly"?  I ask because my other male will be 8 years old at the end of July, and I am wondering if there is any way I could consider using him on a new little bitch I have kept back from the last litter.  She wouldn't be ready to be mated for nearly two years still, and then the male would be around 9+ years old.  I suppose it would be best to make a sperm test, right?

When my bitch was in season I allowed my resident stud dog who lives with her to mate every other day which actually took them from day 11 to day 18 when we thought she had finished but she then took the male off up the garden and had a sneaky last fling behind the bushes!  She whelped 9 puppies on the 64 day after the first mating so the stud dog had lots of "freebies"

> In nature the pair would mate over the whole receptive period.

But we are not 'in nature'.   And again if you do this over an extended period, how are you going to be able to determine the due date?   Sorry, but I can't agree with allowing this.   And never did.   Provided the bitch is receptive and you get one good mating, that's enough, even if most would prefer to do two matings, leaving a gap of a day.

I can't help wondering whether this is more about the owner wanting their males to get 'their jollies' than anything else.

My bitch has just been mated to one of my stud dogs and they've mated over 4 days, it was her choice and by day 5 she turned him down. I'll have her scanned around day 32 from first mating, the lady that does my scanning is very accurate and my last litter was spot on for numbers and the day they arrived.

I know you don't agree with scanning to see if pregnant but many scanners these days have some wonderful tech on them which allows then to work out when the bitch took, the scanner did this for me as I had 3 matings over 3 days and she was correct.
Yes it only takes one mating to get the bitch pregnant but to be sure there is no harm in another one or two matings to cover all bases even with progesterone testing. I don't want to travel a long way for one solo mating and for the bitch not to take even with progesterone testing and pay out for everything needed to get nothing

> how old is "elderly"?

My last litter of 5 (average for breed just under 6) was by a nearly 10 year old male whose last litter had been sired two years earlier.

He was used in November and the bitch absorbed.  He won't be used again.

I believe that if males are used seldom their fertility is likely to fail sooner, as I have heard of regularly used males in popular breeds siring into their teens.

As a bitch owner I would perhaps take a chance with a young bitch where her missing might not be the end of the world, but would not want to risk an older dog who hadn't sired a litter within the last 6 months of a bitch who was running out of time, or litter timing was important for any reason.

I have just used the son of the male mentioned above who is 8 years old and last sired a litter about 18 months ago, I believe the bitch is in whelp but yet to confirm.

> But we are not 'in nature'.

Well we should aim to be as much as possible.

the whole point of mating until the bitch goes over as you then know you have not mated too early.

Older tarty bitches can be inclined to stand early and males that are inexperienced/young will often mate anything that stands still.

If allowed to mate until the bitch goes over you can actually retrospectively calculate likely ovulation date.

A bitch will usually go over after four  to 5 days from ovulation, as the eggs are not fertile until two days past ovulation and die off by 4 days after.

So you can count back from the last fully receptive mating (if allowed to stay until bitch and dog loose interest), and count 63 days from there.

As I have said before my bitches when staying with the stud have usually mated over around a 5 day period, and none have gone more than a day over first mating in those instances.

In fact the least reliable whelping dates have been with single matings where I have had 5 days early and 4 days late. 

So the multiple matings and counting back from last receptive stage has given me a more accurate whelping dates.

Sorry.   You will NEVER persuade me that allowing a pair to continue to mate until she tells him off, is in any way necessary.   And with some sensitive males, being put off eventually may put him off, period.  I guess we just have to agree to disagree in this case.

Just to add I suppose my perspective on this comes from my experience, which is considerable, with my own breed.   You'd never normally leave one of these hounds to carry on mating until the b itch told him off - at least again not by my experience.   Regardless of working out when the due date would be if you did.    I'm fairly sure, with a few exceptions who are worth their weight in gold, who help themselves, the mechanics of mating this breed wouldn't normally allow them to carry on helping themselves.   So again most breeders would be happy to get one, or perhaps two good matings and leave it at that.

> And with some sensitive males, being put off eventually may put him off, period

Actually a male being allowed to work out when a bitch is ready and when she has had enough teaches him to be an accurate stud dog.  the most experienced male rarely bothered to mate the bitch when not ready and also were quite happy to leave off once the bitch was no longer interested.

My mentor (over 50 years in the breed and known for reliable studs) always liked a bitch to come early (say day 8) and allow the pair to meet and the dog gauge her reaction, (of course they were supervised), if her reaction was negative the dog either left her alone (some young ones need a bit of telling) or the bitch was removed if distressed, or pestered.

By the time the more natural courtship was complete the pair were relaxed in each others company, and mating took place.

At the matings I have been present at (where the dog came to stay or I stayed at stud owners home) the pair didn't even need separating except when unsupervised, so most matings took place first thing after morning ablutions, and then they were set for the day happy just to be in each others company (if at home along with my other girls).

A friends dog came to me for all his matings, as she owned another male, he was six before siring his first litter (I had tried him as a maiden with my too domineering bitch, and he gave up on her), and got every one pregnant over his two years of use, including one that had been tried twice before, but never succeeded in being mated.

We could avoid all this testing travelling etc if we just allowed a more natural approach to the whole mating thing without this expectation of presenting a bitch and having her mated when we want within minutes.

That sort of approach encourages the dog to assume a  bitch presented must be mated there and then or she will be taken away, and being held perhaps encourages this.

The matings I have supervised or assisted in, the handlers did nothing until mating was in progress, discreetly steadying the bitch so she didn't move while the dog turned himself, and then stopping her from fidgeting too much during the tie, or in one of my own stopping her from trying to turn turtle once the tie was made.

I have helped at a mating with a large guarding breed where there were 4 people present, the bitch didn't even lay eyes on the male, eh was walked onto her, two people helped him turn.  I found it quite distasteful and over clinical.

I boarded a bitch going to the same male, as studs own bitches would not have accepted her in the house. The bitch was sweet and easy going and had been happily playing trains with my lot.

Stud owner arrived and I suggested she simply let him off lead with her in my dog area (easy to intervene if needed).  this time a little play and flirting lead to a lovely natural mating with both very happy.  We only approached once the dog had reached the ladder climbing stage in case he needed help and to steady the girl, neither was actually needed we just gently had a hand on her chest while he got his leg around.

The more unnatural the breeds conformation, and behaviour the less natural will be reproduction, AI becoming common place due to lack of libido, elective C sections etc. 

This is another reason for asking ourselves why we allow such extremes to become normalised.

Your breed started out much more on leg, less heavy and am sure in pack life were very capable of mating naturally.

Excellent posts Barbara, very informative and make good sense. We should be trying to let things be as natural as possible for the dogs. It's hard to believe that in some breeds so much human intervention is needed that you feel they might die out without our 'help'. A sad state of affairs imo.

Totally love all that you say there Barbara, too.

Again all I can say is my experience is with 40+ years in my main breed.   Which didn't often breed without assistance.  Whether or not they did in the past, in packs, I doubt - in fact the main Pack, which was associated originally with the Breed Club often used show hounds for their studs and they weren't on the leg by any means.   From experience, with a stud dog who knew what it was all about, once mated to a bitch, he'd tend to appear to know he'd done his job, and wasn't interested in extending the experience over a significant number of days.

All I will say on this.

Gotta say Barbara, perfect explanation - totally how we do it too.

Gotta say Barbara, perfect explanation - totally how we do it too.

My girl is currently spending her honeymoon with her hubby. They'll be allowed to mate from when she first allows him to when she says 'Enough' with a day's rest for both in between matings. The stud dog owners are very experienced and it's much nicer for her, even though it involves more travel for me.

Not been on for yonks, but very pleased to see you're still giving out excellent advice

Well we are just now 6 weeks 3 days from first mating (which I reckon from the dogs behaviour was early, as even though he had opportunity he only mated her Friday, Sunday, and was not mad keen until Tuesday, when he mated her then, and again Wednesday and Thursday). 

Her last mating was Thursday, so she she is two days under 6 weeks from last mating and very obviously pregnant now, despite bleeding through to day 33!!!.

Can I just add that I had my almost 8 year old boy fertility tested recently (and he has been used very sparingly) to find that he is 98% fertile! We have never got involved with the mating, only helping to turn when required and steadying the bitch - he even knows to stand still and wait for her to settle. Sometimes, the more we meddle, the worse it gets.

I have only ever used him once on my bitch and she absorbed because the eggs were already going over. However he has been successful every other time and we allowed bitches to stay and them to mate as long as the bitch would stand. usually no more than 3/4 ties in total.

Love the counting backwards to determine dates.