Hi all
Just I am wondering if anyone has experienced same problem. I own a stud dog which is well breed, holding a champion title. I use him a stud. Along with that I always use a stud service contract where it states if the bitch fail to conceive then the second mating is free of charge as I charge for a service.
7 months ago I mated successfully where both; bitch and my dog tied twice hence stud fee was taken. Unfortunately after two months no pups at all (I can add that my stud is proven and sired over 7 litters) therefore as per agreement I have offered second off spring free.
The owner of the bitch called me two weeks ago "I think she is ready". We were trying on four ocasinos but she was closed and nothing happened. So my question is if I still have the responsibility to meet them again to try to mate them for the third time as the owner of the bitch demands this. I made my stud dog available to them at any time they requested but this was not my fault that they have counted days incorrectly. From my point of view I have provided service stated in my contract and at the next time the stud fee should occur. Please can you advise if I am correct.
Thank you for all advices

I don't know whether you're correct "on paper", but it's a bit harsh for the bitch owner to be out of pocket £500 (or whatever your stud fee) and not even a pregnancy to show for it...

I would say that your stud is only available to her again, if she progesterone tests her bitch and brings her at the right time.  (Stud owners in my breed actually all request this anyway, especially for maiden bitches.) 

IMO you're just as to "blame" for the situation, for not insisting on progesterone testing if you couldn't board the bitch with you... definitely after the first failed attempt.

>I have provided service stated in my contract

No you haven't the dog has to mate the bitch.

AS a stud owners I'd expect you to keep trying until you got a mating. 

Dogs aren't robots and just as often a knowledgeable dog will refuse to mate a bitch not ready.

Why not have the bitch stay with you?

This is why I do no pups return of stud fee in full
If your term are free return I believe your obliged to offer then to return again as you didn't get a mating. Admittedly this is fault of bitch owner - perhaps adding into stud contract only available to progesterone tested bitches will remove this issue in future

I would offer another service free of charge but as others have said only if the bitches owners have the bitch progesterone tested. I have to admit to liking the stud contract that takes a covering fee at the time of the mating/s and then takes an amount per live puppy that lives to 24 hrs. After all its not to much to expect to pay something for the time and trouble of the dogs owner as they do put themselves out for the bitch owner. Then if nature does not produce pups  nothing else is lost. It gives the bitches owner the option to use the dog again or to use a different one if they wish. It also sorts out the problem of the bitch not being available to mate again.
I think this time you really should try to do the best you can to be fair to everyone.
Aileen

Doesn't this get complicated!!    I wonder what happened in situations like this, before the availability of all this testing!    Normally the bitch would come back to the dog, stay with the dog's owners and hope eventually a 'free repeat mating' is achieved.  I wonder why she's not receptive?   Could be, like a bitch we had come to one of our boys, she's just not meant to have puppies!   This particular bitch was mated, but no puppies.   As we had a free repeat if no puppies, or not more than 1 (we always felt 1 puppy didn't constitute a litter) in our stud contract, this bitch came back on her next season, was actually mated to our other (proven) stud dog, but again, no puppies.   She was later on taken to another stud dog in another kennel, but nothing.  Clearly she wasn't fertile.

The best laid plans sometimes don't work out.  

Whether or not she's out of pocket, as long as you manage to do a repeat mating, that's good enough in my book.   You pay for the stud service and the only time I'd not take a payment up front, is if my dog wasn't proven.   In which case it would be payment when the litter is on the ground (and if a friend, probably once the puppies started to be sold!!).

I agree with Mamabas as having a stud myself, I offer a free return for no pups or only 2 pups. However my contracts expects the bitch to be scanned after 28 days. If the bitch is empty then the free return stands. However, if the scan shows pups but bitch absorbs then my boy has done his job. I have no control of how the bitch is cared for after mating and prior to whelping and therefore if my boy has impregnated her, he and I have fulfilled our part of the service. I also feel I have the right to refuse free return if the bitch owner doesn't have her scanned. They have a vested interest in finding out if there is a pregnancy and should take some responsibility in her health and well being during this time.

I know this seems harsh but with the cost of the stud fee being as little as a third of the price of a pup in some cases regarding my breed, and taking time off work to house a visiting bitch whilst having girls of my own is a big undertaking. I know that bitch owners are in for the long haul whereas stud owners are only there for the first 20mins ;) but its not all down to the stud dog owner and when the pups are sold the breeder will (hopefully) make back their costs but the stud dog owner will likely be out of pocket if continuously offering free returns, having bitches stay and - if needed- time off work.

I make sure they read the contract and make everything clear before hand. With my past experience (which was documented on the forum) I have become weary and will look out for the interest of my boy first and foremost. I do not ask people to use my dog, they choose to come to me, just as they choose to sign the contract.

Can I also edit to add that my boy is regularly fertility tested.

I do not think it is harsh as when I mate my bitch then I pay for the service, the bitch's owner responsibility is to make all test. After first time when she has informed me that there is no pups I have suggested to go to the vet and check the level of progesterone. She reasurred me that she will do it and unfortunatelly she could not be bothered to do it. I breed and show my dogs for over 7 years and this is the first time when this has happened. My stud is proven as he has been mated very recently with one of my bitches and i have a beutyful litter.
Just I am not sure what to do in this case.

> I always use a stud service contract where it states if the bitch fail to conceive then the second mating is free of charge as I charge for a service

> The owner of the bitch called me two weeks ago "I think she is ready". We were trying on four ocasinos but she was closed and nothing happened.

As your stud contract stats a free maiting if the first one does not take and the bitch was not maited on this season, technically you have not fulfilled the agreement untill they have a free maiting. What would have happened if they had come and the bitch was ready but your boy refused would you have still counted that as a free maiting?

If I was you I would allow them to try again next season and tell them if they want to use him to get her progesterone tested so they don't miss her again. Then have your stud contract changed to insist on progesterone testing if they want a free maiting to make sure the bitch is brought at the right time if you do not want to risk a bitch owner coming too early or late.

Yes, I know I have to change my contract to more detailed.

I think from my perspective I have fullfiled my contract as this was her responsibilty to do the test...but my word against hers.

The owner of the bitch was not sure when she strted to bleed and she counted her days wrongly. The bitch was closed at all visits (at the second mating), what vet has confirmed, it was too late.

It is dificult and this is the first time I am in this position as all bitches mated with my stud had puppies.

:-)

Can I ask why you only "allow" 2 visits?  I have stud dogs and have always allowed whatever the bitch needs.  In fact I have always offered to have the bitch stay with me.  (I take visiting bitches to bed with me to ensure their safety.)

While you say that you're not being harsh, you have to remember that others may not say the same.  While the bitch owner can easily 'moan' about you to other dog people it could easily mean that you gain a reputation in the dog fancy.  Do you really want that?

> I know this seems harsh but with the cost of the stud fee being as little as a third of the price of a pup in some cases regarding my breed,

This is the difference in many (most?) breeds the stud fee is the price of a puppy.  Not a nominal sum to cover bitches boarding and time and trouble for stud owner

A bitch may absorb a litter because o some abnormality, the genes just don't click, so it's to all the bitches fault if a litter is lost.

No bitch owner pays for the dogs to mate but the hope for a  litter.

The stud dog owner has the inconvenience of the visiting bitch and any health testing for their dog, but after that their fee is theirs with no additional expense. 

The bitch owner on the other hand has a lot of expense and responsibility before they see any return on their investment in the litter and often are out of pocket, ans certainly so if you factor in their time.

That's what I mean Brainless. there is a vast difference in stud fees. there are some kennels that charge the price of a pup - I know that that is what I paid for my recent litter. But in a numerically large breed, people can and do offer their dogs up for stud at much lower prices. Pups differ in price, ranging from £750- £900 and when a stud dog owner is charging a 3rd of that it isn't really worth their time to go into so much detail.

I understand that it isn't always the bitches fault if she absorbs but then nor is it the fault of the stud - this is why I offer a free return. If a bitch fails on a 2nd attempt (ties on both matings) then I would ask for the bitch to be seen by a vet and would do the same for my stud. If however, the breeder cannot or doesn't want to go through this then I see no reason why I should go out of my way to provide mating after mating season after season. There must be an end somewhere! I work on a zero hours contract. I do not offer my boy for stud to make a quick buck (as i should hope others do too). When a bitch stays over I take the days off of work so that I can supervise throughout the day. The bitch is walked on our field to avoid other males, is kept away from my male so that do not try to kill themselves trying to achieve a tie for hours on end, sleeps with us in our room, I groom her before she goes home and send her off with a goody bag alongside the contract, pedigree and 4 colour pictures. If I am staying at home for 4 days that is over £400 in wages.

I do not make much of a profit from the agreement. I also refuse to stud my boy out non stop. In his 8 years, he has produced 5 litters and the first was free so that he could be proven.

The last time a bitch visited, I ended up having to keep her separate from my friendly gang because she kept showing her teeth. In the middle of the night, she got out of the kitchen and came into our bedroom, where she attacked one of my girls and tore her ear to shreds and left a huge puncture wound in her neck. This bitch had visited before her season and hung out with my lot with no problems what so ever. I rang the owner who refused to come and collect her bitch until the following evening because she had work and told me to purchase a muzzle for her. When she finally arrived, I spoke to her at length as to why her bitch should not be bred from and still gave her a goody bag and had groomed her. The owner did not offer to pay board (as I had not allowed a mating due to the attack), offered me £40 as payment for the damage to my bitch and left. I lost out on 4 days wages and had the vets bill of £127 to deal with.

I know this isn't the norm but there are  breeders out there who might be clued up on showing and whelping but have no idea about breeding and general etiquette when dealing with stud dog owners.

I am not able to take bitch to my house it is difficult to facilitate as I own 4 dogs so I don't want to look after one. As per kennel club I charge for the service as I cannot take responsibility what will happen.

I use their contract which I think is fair enough. Every one has they own rule about mating so questionING me why I only offer 2nd mating free (next season)if the bitch fail to conceive is bit od. When the bitch is in season they vist us as many times as they want. Any way from my experience of dog is proven and the bitch is allright then one successful mating (tie) should result with puppies. That's what alway has happen.

> Any way from my experience of dog is proven and the bitch is allright then one successful mating (tie) should result with puppies. That's what alway has happen.

Multiple matings over the receptive period increase chance of conception, especially if relying on nature as opposed to progesterone testing.  Some dogs are better at recognising the true fertile time than others, and will only mate a bitch when she is spot on, those are gems and indeed one mating is enough.

Unfortunately may males (especially when inexperienced or when matings are overly manipulated)will mate anything that stands still long enough, and especially if the bitch is held, so her receptiveness is not a given.

Incorrect timing is the most common reason for a bitch missing.

It sounds like everyone else here, who has described boarding a bitch, also has multiple other dogs.... so I'm not sure why that should be a reason why a bitch can't be boarded? 

Obviously everyone's home situation is different, but if you can't board a bitch then you have to accept YOU massively increase the chances of matings not happening at the right time for conception to occur.  (Especially if YOU are not insisting on progesterone testing.)

This situation isn't entirely the bitch owner's 'fault' for not progesterone testing, but also your 'fault' for not being able to board the bitch and for not insisting on progesterone testing (especially after the first failed attempt). 

If you asked her to, and she said she would - then why did you allow her to make the journey to use your stud for the 2nd time, when she hadn't tested?  You should have said 'sorry, you need to go to the vet and get a test done, as per our agreement, or my stud isn't available.'

If you're not progesterone testing, and you're not boarding the bitch, you are BOTH gambling, so it's not just one of your 'faults' if nothing happens - it's both. 

Moreover, I think it is slightly more yours:  Stud dogs will generally have far more matings than bitches, over their lives, and knowledge about timing and conception and ovulation and testing, is part of the 'service' you keep going on about providing and being paid for - it should be expected that an experienced stud dog owner will end up having more experience in this department than the bitch owner, because you're dealing with it more often.  And also because you should have a vested interest in ensuring pregnancy - the reputation of your stud is dependent on it, and bitches can be pretty nasty if they are not receptive.

It doesn't sound like you have provided this service, since you haven't offered much advice, you haven't insisted on testing or on the bitch being checked by a vet, and due to this, the situation has occurred again. 

The "service" a bitch owner pays for, is about far more than just being present whilst mating is attempted and handling the dogs..

Reading through this is cant see that she's actually had the second mating because its not actually happened for whatever reason the bitch isn't ready. I would offer another free return and tell her she must progesterone test to at least have an idea even if she does get 1,2 or 3 matings the next season round if she decides to come back.
Not everyone is in the position to board someone's bitch, my girl was the last time and she was crated ib a room apart from the owners others dogs and I left here there for a few days. That was generous but can understand its not always possible especially with other dogs or bot having another person to assist with the matings.
Far too many stud owners see it as easy money and do as little as possible, this should work both ways to try and get the bitch pregnant. Semen levels can dip and I would ask if your boy has also been checked for his recent fertility too.
I do like the contract that merlot has mentioned which a few people I know do and that's charge a handling fee and then charge per puppy pr if over a certain amount the full stud fee is payable.

That's the problem sewjaw there was no maiting on the free return season yet the stud owner want to count it as if there was one.

Olenka does your contract state all bitches must be progesterone tested before visiting? If not then it's to be expected that sometimes things will not go as planned and some will be brought when not ready as not everyone likes testing. My last visit to a stud we missed her completely, she showed no signs of being ready when I borrowed a friend's stud to test her and it turned out unlike her last season where she was ready towards the end (day 20) this time by time we tested her to see what was going on she must have been ready at the beginning of her season.

Take it this way if someone else wanted to use your boy came up for the first time and the bitch was over so no maiting would you still insist they played a stud fee when nothing happened?

Jo Stockbridge, I have already offered them next season free of charge but asked them they have to fulfil the following
-progesteron test
-ultrasound at day 28 to confirm or exclude pregnancy
-current eye test as old one has expired.

Hope this is fair and the next time all will be successful.

Thank you all for your valuable advices.

That is reasonable yes. Hopefully that will cover all basis:-)

> It sounds like everyone else here, who has described boarding a bitch, also has multiple other dogs.... so I'm not sure why that should be a reason why a bitch can't be boarded? 

     
And I even manage it with 21 dogs.  Yes,  they all live in the house.  I even know a CD member with more indoor dogs than me!

I don't have the most humungous house, although I do have plenty of outside playing/exercising space.  I also have a lot of experience with maiden bitches and it takes time and understanding with these girls.  I am fortunate in having a boy who doesn't force himself on a bitch.  He is great at knowing the exact time and doesn't mess around wasting his energy.  I spend countless hours doing my utmost to ensure a bitch is happy and relaxed.  I have to ignore all the other things that I should be doing.  And I charge £200 - and no charge for feeding and boarding the bitch.  Then find out that the bitch owner isn't willing to take time off work to collect their bitch.  So I have to keep her until the weekend (after she's already been here over a week!)

Not all stud dog owners expect something for nothing.  I agree with another poster regarding lost wages.  Just have to take days off as my holiday!

> Jo Stockbridge, I have already offered them next season free of charge but asked them they have to fulfil the following -progesteron test -ultrasound at day 28 to confirm or exclude pregnancy -current eye test as old one has expired. Hope this is fair and the next time all will be successful, Thank you all for your valuable advices.

Yes sounds fair to offer them a third go, as are those conditions you have given completely fair to save wasting another trip. Fingers crossed and good luck

Yes, that sounds good