We have a 13 yr old Ckcs, Molly, and last night our future puppy was born (a friends bichon had a litter of 8 ... When scanned they were told there were 5 so a lovely surprise). Well we are definitely having one but I wondered if maybe 2 is a good idea. This would take us to a grand total of 3 pooches in our house. Molly is definitely my dog and we are going to separate them when on their own until we know the puppy won't bother Molly too much. We have my mil and best friend who will be popping in on the days that I'm working, twice, so they can have some monitored time together etc. But would taking on 2 puppies from the same litter be a good idea or not. Molly was 11 months old when we got Freya so there was an age difference. Thoughts please.
Ps I got to see the 8 puppies when they were a whole 10 hours old ...so cute

Fantastic, something lovely to look forward to.  But, please only 1 puppy.  Training and socialising 2 from the same litter is really difficult.  The pups would depend too much on each other and not be so interested in you.  I would never sell 2 pups from a litter to the same person, instead I would want them to wait until their pup is settled before introducing another.  I always recommend that people who have other dogs in their household take their pup out alone, this would be impossible with 2.

I was always told that it was a really bad idea to have two from the same litter as they pay more attention to each other than you, which makes training them difficult. Others probably have different views.

Getting siblings together is very hard work, you will need to walk them separately, train them separately at some time otherwise they could bond to each other closer than they bond with you, this could lead to acute separation anxiety if they ever have to be separately for example.

I would never have 2 dogs closer than 18 months to ensure that the existing dog is adult.

I know Cavaliers are a very social breed & rarely have temperament problems, but I still wouldn't have siblings together

Never two pups together.

I would always advise at least 18 months but ideally three years between dogs.

there is less likelihood as well as over reliance and attachment, there is the risk of dogs close in age fighting, as the younger will usually respect the elder if there is a  decent age gap, otherwise you have to hope that one has a much more follower temperament than the other.

Something you may not have considered is that if you get two, you will again be in the same position again as now, (your very likely to loose your two eldest close together).

I'd have one pup and not get another until one or both of your eldest have died.

> Others probably have different views.

Might do.  But I'm with RozzieRetriever on this one.  Any reputable breeder would refuse to sell two pups together like this.  I agree that they become far more bonded to each other. 

Whenever I hear someone say that they bought 2 pups out of the same litter I automatically think BYB.

This is basically what my gut said. Last thing I want is to run poor Molly into the ground. New pup is a bichon so different breed but I'd like to adopt a rescue Ckcs maybe next year. I will be training and walking the pup separately for a while too. It's very interesting to hear everyone's thought though so thank you

Brainless would that be in age rather than length of time .. So a 4 yr old rescue Ckcs next year giving a 3 yr difference?

Age, the idea is to make a clear distinction in status and age normally achieves this, but integrating an older adult with an established younger adult may be less easy than adding the youngster.

In a bred like CKCS though that are generally pretty easy going with their own kind, and especially if you choose opposite sex, (opposite sexes have no pack rivalry issues), then you should have no worries.

From an ownership/management point of view, a good age gap means you have a mature trained adult that won't slip into naughty habits as easily when you have a youngster, and youngster is easier to train with the example of your well trained adult, and you have less distraction for the untrained/immature.

Freya was a little monkey, bless her. She was younger and til her dying day pulled on the lead etc. There was less than a year between them so I guess the competition was there between them. They got on amazingly until feeding time about a year and half ago when Freya tried to eat Molly's dinner .... All hell broke out! So we separated them at meal times. I'll be doing the same with pup. I've spoken a lot with my boys about the pecking order and the need to fuss Molly first etc and they regularly tell people about what they need to do when visiting. I guess we will just have to wait and see if and when the time is right to get another but I have my heart set on rescuing a Ckcs next time. Although we are getting a different breed this time I can't be without a Ckcs. Thanks brainless, what dogs do you have?

Take 1 puppy only.

No responsible breeder should sell 2 puppies from same litter togeather. (a nightmare in the making)

Don't even be tempted to go and buy a second puppy from another litter, the result will be the same!

We have a 13 yr old Ckcs

I do not think it is good idea to add a young, frisky/active, ultra inquisitive dog into the life of a 13 year old to decrease the 100% attention its habituated to from the owner by a reducing very high % of that attention by owner onto another, new pack member.
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One puppy only please.   Reputable breeders know the pitfalls of taking on two, especially from the same litter.   It might seem cute and kind to keep two together, but in reality, each will look to the other first and then you ..... with all that entails!   

And another thing, exciting as this may be, for you, do you think it's fair to inflict a puppy on your 13-year old?   It would depend on the individual always, but it could be that your existing oldie would be far happier to see out her days as the only dog in the household and then you start a project to find another puppy?

Up to you of course, but these are my thoughts.

Exciting - but don't get carried away.

One more thing - I was too late to edit ....... if you buy two males, by the time they reach puberty, unless one is clearly more dominant than the other, you could have fighting.   And maybe similarly with two bitches - and once they start fighting, there is usually no way back.   If you take one of each gender, the bitch WILL have to be spayed before her first season - for obvious reasons.

We have a household full of 5 entire bitches and there is no fighting. Ages vary from almost 2 years to 10.5 years.
Have always kept entire bitches for almost 50 years and have never encountered this reported sort of problem!

Why spay before first season, this is so wrong and far too young! Castrate the male but again allow the animal to grow and mature first before you have this fashionable operation done.
Best to have 2 of the same sex.

I would never have 2 the same age again, we had a lot of trouble with our 2 boys when they became adults and I added a bitch puppy!

I found having two dogs just 13 months apart too much like hard work. Also when they get elderly together and there is a high chance of losing them together

Of course it's not necessarily so that bitches will fight!!   We too kept a kennel-full of bitches with a couple of males and it was very rare for any of ours to have serious fighting going on.   I'm just suggesting what MIGHT happen!!!   Especially between siblings - not that again, we didn't often keep back two, or three even, bitches from out litters.

"I found having two dogs just 13 months apart too much like hard work. Also when they get elderly together and there is a high chance of losing them together"

Now that is very relevant and especially hard when we lost the final two of our bloodline, within a year of each other.

Please do NOT spay until the bitch  is at least a year old, it can cause all sorts of problems. Just another point, I would be worried that a breeder would allow you to see the puppies at 10 hours old. Poor mum must have been mega stressed and the thought of bringing any infection to a litter of newborns does not bear thinking about.

Very bad idea to have litter mates. I have two males that started fighting at about 12 months old. For the last few yrs I have had to keep them completely apart as the fights got so bad that serious damage was being done. They are 10 yrs old now and would still fight given the chance.  Bitches can be even worse and I have always said I would sooner separate two males fighting than two bitches. Bitch fights are my idea of hell.

> Thanks brainless, what dogs do you have?

I have 6 Norwegian Elkhound bitches, puppy 'Ridl' 9 months, then 'Peni' 3 1/2, 'Safi' 5, 'Inka' 7 1/2,  'Myka' 9, and 'Lexi' 12 1/2.

The two sets that are only about 18 months apart in age were much harder work than the longer age gaps.

Myka and Inka are Lexi's daughters, Safi is Inka's, Peni is Myka's, and Ridl is Peni's.

I also had Lexi's Mum Jozi 1999 - 2015, Grandmother Kizi 1997 - 2011, Great Grandmother Tula 1995 - 2006,and started with Great Great Grandmother Elka 1992 - 2005.

Imported Lexi's Dad born 2001 with three friends where he did 6 months quarantine as it was before pet passports, and he still lives with one of the partners daughters.

I was always led to believe that having litter mates or dogs close in age was a really bad idea. But then I lost my youngest dog, which led to me getting a pup only 7 months before planning a litter from one of my other dogs. Due to unexpected circumstances we kept a dog and a bitch, so ended up with 2 bitches and dog all under a year old. And it's been far easier than any of us expected! All the best of friends, but quite able to cope on their own too - it helps having family though who can look after one during the day in the early months to help them learn independence.

> And it's been far easier than any of us expected! All the best of friends, but quite able to cope on their own too - it helps having family though who can look after one during the day in the early months to help them learn independence.

but then you may have been lucky, (a lot depends on the individual characters involved which you can't know at the puppy stage) for a start you kept opposite sexes (less likely to fight) and you have yet to find out if the one that is only 7 months older than the same sex pup will continue to get on as they reach social maturity at around 4 years of age.

Also you are likely not the average pet owner who may not be able to make the adjustments needed if things don't work out.

> Please do NOT spay until the bitch  is at least a year old, it can cause all sorts of problems. Just another point, I would be worried that a breeder would allow you to see the puppies at 10 hours old. Poor mum must have been mega stressed and the thought of bringing any infection to a litter of newborns does not bear thinking about.

Just a couple of comments.   Re spaying before the first season - many vets recommend this isn't done especially with medium to large breeds, citing bone growth problems and the risk of spay incontinence later on.   However, this would depend on the breed (size) and of course, whether you can keep them separated when she has the one season.   If they grow up together to that point, being in season apart, separating them may well be a nightmare, unless you can get the male completely out of there.

Secondly I'd totally agree re anybody coming in to see puppies who have only just been whelped!    Not even my neighbour who my hounds knew as well as us, were let in that soon!!   Not so much re infection (no touching, and remove shoes) but stress to a new mum.

My friend didn't suggest it .... It was me getting carried away with the cute little puppies .... Hubby would have put a stop to it too. I was just interested as I'm come across 2 from same litter that were being rehomed so I guess some people do.

Such a beautiful dog.

I stood at the door and peeked in so wasn't close but could see them. I know the mummy and she always come to say hello to me. I took shoes off at the door too but didn't get close.

Thank you for the constructive comments they are appreciated. We have put a lot of thought into taking in a pup. Molly we always be my priority as she is my girl, the puppy will be our first family pup so everyone will be hands on. i will be working very hard to ensure Molly is ok with the new arrangements but I take on board your comments and my neighbour is apply to have pup back if things don't work out.

i will be working very hard to ensure Molly is ok with the new arrangements

Yes, I think that is best thought of as the priority concern whilst things sort themselves out one way or the other, biologicaly your 13 year old is into old age, I dont know the average, healthy Ckc life expectancy but she/he is probably well over the biological equivilant as a 70+ year human, all tese factors need to be taken into account on an hour by hour, day to day basis when he is confined to suddely, unexpectedly sharing his lifelong living quarters with a bouncy infant through to its teens & adolescence.
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As long as your old girl is given the space to be on her own, go for it, a new puppy will be a lovely addition! I have on numerous occasions introduced a young dog to a senior citizen and haven't had a problem. I introduced a 7month old rescue male GSD to a 12 year old mini wire dachshund. I never left them alone to begin with, as I was aware that a bouncy, nipping puppy would and could soon upset an older dog, who was happy doing their own thing. Once the youngster had settled down and I was sure that the 2 got on well together, they were then left together. Very good advice already given regarding not having 2 pups at the same time. My cousin had 2 working collies at the same time and they have been a nightmare. So wrong of the breeder to let a first time dog owner take on 2 siblings. They fought when they got to puberty, were a nightmare to train and have only calmed down, at the age of 12 years plus. She actually decided not to have children because of them and I take my hat off to her, for all the hard work that she put in. Someone else I know had 2 male litter brothers - GSD'S. Admittedly they have never fought, but the hours and hours of individual training for the last 3 years has not been for the faint hearted. Hope all goes well with your new addition.

So wrong of the breeder to let a first time dog owner take on 2 siblings.

I agree, i wondered why she was prepared to do that. Ckc are endearing little dogs and although i have no first hand knowledge I would expect them to be easy to find buyers, it did cross my mind there may possibly be hereditary health probs in the line.
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I wouldn't sell 2 siblings.

Thanks beardy. Molly uses the playroom and lounge and hall during the day so puppy will have his den in the utility with the kitchen. Dog gate will separate them. Molly will get her walks first so that she can eat in peace whilst pup is being walked(when old enough etc) or played with. We will take it step by step with them. Hoping to have a boy this time too to minimise the bitchiness too.

> We have a household full of 5 entire bitches and there is no fighting.

I have a house with 21 dogs living inside.  I've kept entire bitches and spayed bitches, entire males and castrated males.  I do take training very seriously. And I do start very young.  So when people ask how I cope with ALL THE FIGHTING, my reply is always the same.  Any growling to be done and I'll do it. 

After 45 years I'm wondering if I've just been incredibly lucky.  Or maybe it is breed dependent, I've always kept Pastoral breeds and toys.  When visitors say how well behaved they are I take all the credit.    Truth to tell, new puppies copy, even squatting to wee next to adults outside.  I see it all the time.  Big dog sits, puppy wags tail and sits.  It certainly helps in a multi dog household.

If I only had a dog or two I would probably look more into keeping all the same sex.  (It would be boys for me.)

> Bitch fights are my idea of hell.

A bitch is far more likely to fight to the death.  The saying goes - A dog fights to breed, but a bitch fights to breathe.

Facebook Replies:

Lisa Stewart Phillips says: No, Google littermate syndrome.

Jo Cartwright says: Absolutely not. Litter mate syndrome.

Lee Beem says: We've done two lab pups from a litter and I highly recommend it. They are social dogs and don't like being alone. Also, having a playmate the same age with the same energy levels is good for them. Ours were glued at the hip. Inseparable and best friends for 13 years. I vote for two

Maureen Wood I've had brother and sister from the same litter with no problems!!

Catherine Lewis I've had many pairs of littermates with no problems whatsoever. I currently have two pairs from different litters and four from another and they are absolutely fine. Keeping several from the same litter is entirely normal in my breed and much preferred if the prospective owner is able to take more than one, so I can't see any difficulty at all in having two at once unless there is some behavioural quirk in Bichons which would make it awkward.

With a 13 year old bitch...poor old girl.
No matter how hard you try ...two little naughty pups will plague the life out of an oldie. One will maybe take a telling...two with laugh that off.

Housetraining! They are a breed notorious for being near impossible to housetrain....try concentrating the mind of two on that task.

Facebook Replies:

Heather Morrison says: we have an 8mth old cocker girl and a 12yr old cocker male. we lost Ruairi's brother a year ago and felt a girl puppy would be gentler on Rusiri with his arthritis. the first couple of weeks were a nightmare and poor Ruairi was not happy! however they ...See more

Audrey Bates says: I'm a breeder of TT pups and have sold 2 litter mates together with no problems whatsoever they become great friends the last two went local and to stay with an older dog now that older dog runs around with a new zest for life I would recommend
Oh and they have 2 kids as well very busy house with lots of love

>Ours were glued at the hip. Inseparable and best friends for 13 years.

>they become great friends

This is the problem.  People don't see littermate syndrome until it's too late, or until one dog dies or is ill or goes to the vets.  Excessive bonding with another dog interferes with bonding to people.

I kept two puppies out of our last litter--it wasn't intentional, but I have run on a dog and bitch, both of whom are really lovely, but it's been very hard work and I would not do it again. They are now nearly 17 months old and live with their mother, great uncle and two other dogs.

I had to keep two pups again from my last litter as it was such a big litter. Kept my choice of bitch and the last dog. I had to separate them permanently at 9 months of age as they were fighting so badly they were causing proper injuries to each other -despite being of the opposite sex! Son now lives with his dad and the other boys and spayed bitches, daughter lives with mum and the entire bitches.