I could really do with some advice here. For the past 5 years my bitch has been with KC insurance and for 3 of those years she's had the breeding cover. Now this has cost us almost £70 a month.
Her last litter scanned with 2, however she got to day 64 and wasn't showing signs of even starting to give birth so I took her to the vet who scanned (costing £70) and found only 1 puppy. Now the vet said do you want to wait until Monday (it was Thursday by this stage) or do you want a c-section? I came home, spoke with breeders a lot more experienced than me and asked on here too and was told that action needed to be taken as singletons don't always trigger labor. We took her the morning after and the pup was born on day 65 (from the last mating, day 69 from the first mating) .

Now... the vet sent in our claim to get back some of the c-section cost (total cost was £880 so within their guidelines) and yesterday we had a letter back saying that they don't cover elective / preventative c-sections....only c-sections from complications of pregnancy or whelping.

Can I fight this?

I didn't feel there was a choice but to get the c-section, I didn't want to leave him in there  until he died and/or she died from him being in too long.

I think, as usual, this company is trying to wriggle out of paying you anything.   Elective C.Sections are not usual with dogs - and if she was born on day 65 from the last and even longer from the first mating, this 'Section was NEEDED in my opinion.     Had you waited any longer, it would have been a 'complication' situation.   And yes, singleton puppies often do just 'sit' growing bigger by the day.  I'd fight, much as I never had insurance when we were breeding.  And not even now we have two 'pets' because of just this situation.   I had a vet who allowed me to stage pay if we hit a bad patch.

I would speak to the vet and question how they worded what was done on the claim form, did they stress it was essential?  I would ask the vet to write a letter stating that it was an emergency c-section in their opinion and not elective.

I would also try to find some definitions of an elective C-section and an emergency c-section - maybe looking at human health definitions.  IMO, an elective c-section is something planned months earlier if not from the beginning of pregnancy.  An emergency is an unexpected c-section which had to be done to result in live birth.  I would argue what you had was an emergency c-section and try to find some evidence from human health to support your definitions.

I'd also look back at the small print and the Ts&Cs for your insurance, because they often explicitly define terms there - and if their definition means this isn't an emergency then you can't really do much about it because those are the terms you signed up to.  If they have left it out and haven't defined it, then you might have a chance.

I would also say you intend to take things further and phone up Trevor Cooper or some dog law person and have a chat to see what they say.

Thanks everyone.

Okay so my vet won't speak to me!! I left a message for her to call me and instead I get someone else that works there so I've had to go through them. Anyway the vet feels it was elective and that I should have waited until the Monday (it was the Thursday she suggested waiting from and I had it done on the Friday). I've explained my point to the woman and she will pass it on to the vet to see if the vet will send a letter to the insurance company...

This is a complete nightmare. 71 days from the first mating surely is long enough to wait... especially with a singleton puppy.

It isn't so much about the money as it is about the fact I've never claimed for anything for her, and paid a hell of a lot of money each month. I don't know why anyone would choose to have their bitch cut open unless it's necessary.

Gosh what a a total %Y&£%^$  of a vet!!!  It's hard enough as it is to do things right, without people who are supposed to be on your side doing this kind of thing.  Whatever her most private thoughts about how urgent it was, I'm sure she could see that there is a very good argument for it to be urgent - ie - another professional in her position could easily have seen it to be urgent - and filled in the form accordingly.  Maybe she isn't very well disposed towards breeders and breeding?! 

Can you get a 2nd opinion, have the notes sent to another vet (who is better disposed towards breeding and experienced with canine pregnancy) and seek a 2nd opinion stating that it was essential and emergency, and submit that to the insurance??

> Gosh what a a total %Y&£%^$  of a vet!!!  It's hard enough as it is to do things right, without people who are supposed to be on your side doing this kind of thing.  Whatever her most private thoughts about how urgent it was, I'm sure she could see that there is a very good argument for it to be urgent - ie - another professional in her position could easily have seen it to be urgent - and filled in the form accordingly.  Maybe she isn't very well disposed towards breeders and breeding?!

TOTALLY AGREE.   I'd have expected this vet to support YOU, even if 'just' as a client!!   I'd NOT have left this over the weekend if your bitch was that far along.   At this point in the pregnancy, I don't see how this could be considered not to be anything other than needed to save life!   Most vet won't do a 'Section until there are some signs that whelping is beginning however, so if she wasn't even in the first stages, perhaps this is where the 'elective' bit comes in?   And in that, if she was that far along, mine would give a shot to get things started and if that doesn't work, then go in.

> mine would give a shot to get things started and if that doesn't work,

Oxytocin must never be given if at least one puppy hasn't been born or the cervix is not dilated (which can't be visualised in all but small breeds, as this can cause uterine rupture

I'd certainly not have waited even that long no more than 64 days from last mating or 67 days after first.

Was the stage of pregnancy clearly state  by the vet as 69 days from first mating!!

As it ahs been shown that bitches reliably mate 63+/- days after ovulation, and a bitch will not normally stand for any mating before the lh surge (2 days before ovulation) any canine pregnancy more than 66 days after the first mating would be an emergency.

> Oxytocin must never be given if at least one puppy hasn't been born or the cervix is not dilated (which can't be visualised in all but small breeds, as this can cause uterine rupture

Well fwiw, for our last litter in Canada before we came home, I took my bitch in knowing things were not progressing as they should.  They examined her and gave me 2 shots of oxytocin to give her once back home.   I gave her one, but not seeing anything happen,  because I was aware of the risks, and wasn't happy to give her a second, took her back and asked them to go ahead with the Section.   And this was BEFORE she'd had any puppies.   She had 9 puppies.   The litter was so good we kept 3 and brought them back to the UK with others.  One of these 3 took a UK title, her sister, always overshadowed in the ring by her sister, did managed to take her Stud Book entry/Crufts Perm.qual and the brother, much as his bite wasn't as it should be for the UK (edge to edge, not scissor) is back of a lot of current UK bounds.

This is a complete nightmare. 71 days from the first mating surely is long enough to wait... especially with a singleton puppy.

Well I know 3 people who waited on the advice of their vet. Two bitches had one puppy each, one had 3. One small breed, two large. All 3 bitches lost their pups as the section wasn't done soon enough.

Well then the cervix may have been open, but as it is virtually impossible to visualise it in larger breeds, it is extremely high risk to give Oxytocin before any pups born.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Oxytocin-S_10_iu_ml_Solution_for_injection/-29622.html

Uses:
stimulation of uterine contraction to facilitate parturition in the presence of a fully dilated cervix

Contra-indications, warnings, etc
1. When Oxytocin-S is used as an aid to parturition, cervical dilation must be confirmed prior to administration to prevent the risk of foetal death and possible uterine rupture.
2. Oxytocin-S is contra-indicated in any form of obstructive dystocia.
3. Excessive doses of the product may delay parturition by producing incoordinated uterine contractions which interfere with the progress of the foetus especially in multiple pregnancies.

I have waited and regretted so think you did absolutely the right thing.
Surely elective does not mean you were certain you were going to do it, but that you were anxious and waiting and wondering whether stepping in to o late would mean the non survival of the puppy and/ or your bitch.
I have been fortunate, not had a single to and pups born about the expected time but cannot imagine how you were feeling at that stage of the game.

Thanks for the advice everyone,

Just waiting on the insurance company getting the letter off the vet, no idea what it will say.

I just feel a bit defeated by it, I tried to do what was right for my bitch and feel like the vets let me down.

I would contact a specialist on the field for second opinion and also request a copy of the letter that is sent to the insurance company.

Ask to speak to the practice manager or owner of the vet surgery

> Was the stage of pregnancy clearly state  by the vet as 69 days from first mating!!<br /><br />As it ahs been shown that bitches reliably mate 63+/- days after ovulation, and a bitch will not normally stand for any mating before the lh surge (2 days before ovulation) any canine pregnancy more than 66 days after the first mating would be an emergency.

oops. that should say bitches whelp 63+/- days after ovulation.

So if you had waited until Monday and the pup (s) had died because of waiting. Would the insurance have paid out for loss of pups? Would the vet have been at fault? Could you then take vet to court!? Not having gone through a c section with a pet I'd have thought the owner knew their girl better than the vet.

This is where 'reverse progesterone testing' could be so useful, as it would prove pups needed to come out. 

Unfortunately there is the delay factor due to needing blood testing at an outside lab. 

The in-house colour chart testing kits, like Premate,  can be used but are not as specific, but will show progesterone has dropped to pre ovulation levels.

Just a thought but true elective C sections are planned for before whelping starts on day 63 - 65 at most.

^^  What Brainless says here should be argued with the insurance company.

Honestly, this makes me so cross.  You have enough to do with mum and pup let alone having to fight insurance claims at the moment - and all down to someone who was supposed to be on your side - your vet!!

> You have enough to do with mum and pup let alone having to fight insurance claims at the moment - and all down to someone who was supposed to be on your side - your vet!!

Couldn't agree more!!   And I would have expected any vet I used, to be on my side in this.

Now the vet said do you want to wait until Monday (it was Thursday by this stage) or do you want a c-section?

Firstly the vet suggested the c-section may well be needed at this point, it was not you..........you then went away to ask experienced breeders their opinions, you quite rightly came back with not chancing anymore time passing.

Secondly, I doubt that the vet when filling out the form stated this was a singleton pup, which obviously was the reasoning behind this decision.

Speak to the KC and ask them what the vet filled out wrongly to be put right, and then insist that your vet re-does the form for you.

> Secondly, I doubt that the vet when filling out the form stated this was a singleton pup, which obviously was the reasoning behind this decision.<br />

and the length of time overdue from even last mating, as I said a bitch won't stand earlier than two days before ovulation (the LH surge), so gestation over 65/6 days from a first mating is as long as should be felt safe, as bitches reliably whelp 63 +/- days from ovulation. Add a singleton to the equation and you have a complication/emergency situation.

Your bitch was sectioned on day 69 from first mating and day 65 from last, well past safe expectations.

Might be worth printing out scientific articles on canine reproduction.

Informed common sense opinion completely supports your decision. Might it be worth contacting the Insurance Ombudsman about this?
You could even print out this thread to support your application. Good luck.

Thanks everyone,

Still waiting on the insurance to decide if this appeal was successful. If it isn't then I will go and find a second opinion from another vet as well as a letter from someone experienced in the field.

I am sick of the bad luck I'm having as my business was also flooded twice in December from the Floods so by this stage I am sick of insurance.

I just feel so annoyed that the vet thinks it was a choice when I feel so strongly that it was in both my bitch and the pups best interest.

UPDATE

Still declined!!!!

Rang them to say, if I get some info from an expert about length of time left would they accept it and they said not unless that expert had seen the bitch before the c-section. Vet apparently has said it was elective and my reason was because the pup was big????? wtf?????? AARHGGHHHG 

When I spoke to the vets I clearly told them why It was a matter of urgency to me!

I don't know what to do now.

Go to your vet, the Practice manager if it's a large practice and complain, and try and get them to write in to say how long into gestation the section was performed, and that this was beyond what would be considered safe. 

Threaten to take your business elsewhere.  Interestingly did they inform the Kennel club of the C section, and what did they give as reason?

If you r vet won't then your stuck. 

Might be worth contacting a reproductive specialist to back your viewpoint, but it will need to be your vet who would have to change their opinion.

Following this thread over the days, been taken aback by your vet's total unwillingness even disregard or understanding of the situation.  Surprised over the years at comments made by various vets about breeds, mine I've been told shouldn't even exist, & responded by asking them treat the dog & not the breed. I'm digressing, but feel that many vets have an unconscious bias & was shocked when told that after the PDE programme a well respected practice had removed & closed their books to anyone they knew to be breeding or previously bred. Could you be with someone with a similar attitude?

I wish you well with your fight, you pay the added insurance as a breeder, presumably for an occasion like this, can't believe your vet won't even speak to you. Don't give in, but in the future find a vet you can trust & at least 'talk' to.

Does your vet have a feedback/comments area, even on Google search, not now perhaps but for latter.

Good Luck.

If all else fails I would go to the insurance ombudsman. As for the comment about you saying pup was too big , if this was never said I would be inclinded to take advice on this as well. The pother person worth talking too is Trevor cooper of dog law. It may be out of his remit but he may have some ideas as well. I too am appalled that a vet who should be working for you is acting in such a manner. In my experience most vest are vey good as not going outside the law with their information to the insurance company but supporting you

They have taken £70 a month off you for this extra cover (I don't think most insurance covers breeding?) and they are STILL quibbling about elective C.Section or not??? 

Take it further, if you can be bothered, but for me, this would be a case of cancelling this policy, and CHANGING VETS.

sounds like vet is anti breeding or anti pedigree dogs.
A lot are and use it to cover their own incompetence.  My late weimaraner bitch had sudden dramatic incontinence after her spay opperation and when I complained they said it wasn't the surgery they had just done- she was instead incontinent because a pedigree dog with a docked tail. reckoned the spinal damage of tail amputation and having recognised ancestry made her spontaniously incontinent within hours of spay at 18 months old.

Oh my goodness me.

Yes, having had friends go through insurance crap with issues between what vet said and insurance company, you need to request a meeting with the practice manager and (if possible) the vet as well.  You also need to request a full and complete copy of the notes held on your bitch, including the whole procedure - what was done, what cost what, etc etc.  You have a legal right to this information.  This will say what they thought was going on at the time etc...

Before going to the above meeting, and once you've got all that info, I would make a list of the "evidence" of things in your favour and a list of why what they're saying is bollocks.  I would also phone Trevor Cooper of Dog Law and pay for a consultation on the phone about it (v affordable), explain the situation to him and see what he says, as he may give you more ammunition. 

At the meeting, you then explain your position and your difficulties and ask them why the £^@$% they are saying what they're saying and you INSIST they write a letter to the insurance company retracting what they have said previously - because it was inaccurate and wrong [due to all the reasons you've just listed]. 

If they refuse, you threaten them with some legal stuff which Trevor Cooper will hopefully give you(!).  You could threaten to take your business elsewhere, but sadly as you are 1 person, they probably won't care that much and some sort of legal threat will get more attention - if one can be made. 

Hope that helps!!

Thank you everyone, I will get in touch with Trevor Cooper tomorrow and request all the notes from the vet surgery.

In regards to me being 1 person, I am a dog groomer with a number of clients that use the same vets so I might be able to make a little bit of a stir.

I never once said the pup was big.....infact the pup was a normal sized puppy.. Although I did have some complaints about the vets treatment of the bitch and pup and I posted on my private fb the same day after getting him home so I may print screen it with the date and time and present that to the insurance company if I need to prove my vets lack of breeding knowledge.

This is what I put the same day as the c-section:

So I thought I'd just make a post about Alaska's c-section & our experience. Firstly the cost (£780 in normal vet hours)...although the vet is very expensive it was a vet that had previously done work on other pets of mine (hedgehog). The c-section itself is done very well, with the stitches inside. However I was less than impressed at the aftercare. They have told me to bring her in tomorrow for an injection of pain killers if she needs it, which means up rooting her and her pup and taking them out in the cold. When we went to collect Alaska and the pup, the pup was freezing cold, I asked when / if he had fed and the nurses didn't seem to really know!
Not really the aftercare I expected. I thought they'd have kept the pup warm but they didn't...(didn't even bring it to me wrapped up just in her hands I straight away wrapped him in a towel with a hot water bottle to get him warm)
Overall surgery was good but aftercare leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.