While out on a walk today, I seen a dog with his hair completely covering his eyes.

I don't see 'Humans' walking around with too much hair over (completely covering) their eyes for obvious reasons, therefore, why do some dogs/breeds have too much hair over (completely covering) their eyes ...?  it just doesn't make sense to me.

The canine has no choice in the above matter, therefore, should it be law that any dog with hair that will potentially grow over and completely cover the dog eyes 'Must Be Clipped' to allow these dogs to see properly.

Your thoughts/views ...?

There are people who do where their hair like that but guess it's just not the in thing.
A friend has a long coated breed, and they can still see when the hair is down but outside shows they tend to keep the head fall tied up to keep it clean and out of the way.
If it's not causing the dog a problem why go ott about it.

But don't you agree, 'Humans' can make that decision for themselves the 'Canine' cannot.

If a dog has too much hair covering his/her eyes and cannot see properly, they cannot tell you therefore, how are you so sure that its not causing the dog a problem ...?

I am asking these questions in a polite manner, Cheers.

I really think its down to the owner to consider what is in the best interest of the dog. as for laws ?  no I don't there are far bigger battles to fight and police. Shortly it will be law to microchip at the moment it doesn't even look like that will be policed properly

I think there's a lot more important things to worry about with dog welfare frankly! Loads of people have long hair over their eyes and can see through the curtain of hair perfectly well, and when I've seen slo-mo videos of dogs moving in the show ring, you can see the hair moves away from the eyes as they walk. Only dog I've ever see hit anything was the viral video of the Cavalier doing agility bless him, banged into the last weave pole without any hair cover his eyes!!

I think more to the point...
It will wear very thin for the OP to come on a forum called "Champ" dogs to lecture people about what they think is wrong  with pure breeds and show dogs.
My dogs have coat AND round eyes.....but live in the lap of luxury with no health issues.

Any departure from the wild canine type can be detrimental, but with proper care will not need to be.

For example dogs with drop rather than prick ears, short legs, short muzzles, long coats, coats that don't moult, small or giant size are all genetic mutations away from the canine prototype.

The domestic dog is a totally human creation, as are most domestic animals.

Domestic sheep no longer loose their coats and if not shorn the weight can damage or even can kill them if left for a few seasons.  Funnily enough breeds without fleeces are now bred as sheep are more utilised for meat than wool.

So the question has to be with any domestic animal how far can we mould their genome an still have a functioning happy animal?

I used to breed rabbits and certainly Rex could not live without shelter or soft bedding, and English lops with their extreme ear length are hampered physically. So are Angora Rabbits if not carefully looked after.

I won't go into the monstrosities that some breeds of Goldfish are.

Domestic sheep no longer loose their coats and if not shorn the weight can damage or even can kill them if left for a few seasons.

Actually there are domestic sheep that do shed their fleeces in Spring for example
Dorpers

I did say that, "Funnily enough breeds without fleeces are now bred as sheep are more utilised for meat than wool."

Of course the Primitive Soay sheep as well as their ability to eat seaweed and tolerate high saline, shed their fleeces.

All domestic animals have always been bred for traits that we consider important/attractive/useful and these needs and tastes change.

The above is a prime example, with more emphasis on meat than wool.

Good explanatory post Brainless (username).

I understand what your saying but I still cannot think of 1 good reason why any dog (pedigree or cross bred) needs so much hair to completely cover a dogs eyes.

"Any departure from the wild canine type can be detrimental, but with proper care will not need to be".

But isn't the above quote what this Topic is about, Trimming The Dogs Hair So That He/She Can See Better (proper care) Cheers.

Just noticed that the above quote has disappeared from your post after you edited it. You must have known what I was typing Cheers.

Hi Toolz,

I am not giving anyone a lecture, and where have I mentioned 'Show Dogs' ...?

Long hair that completely covers a dogs eyes (when it cannot see properly) applies to both Pedigree & Cross Breeds. In my opinion 'All Dogs' should have the right to see properly. Just my opinion. Cheers.

The genetics of the long hair don't distinguish where it grows, so it either needs trimming or putting up, which I'd say is what people do, Yorkies, Maltese and Shitzu all have theirs tied back in the ring and as pets usually it isn't' left long enough.

A few breeds are shown with the hair down, but I have never seen them with not being able to see, as the hair moves aside when they move.

I have owned a Yorkshire Terrier in the past, she lived until she was 17 years old. I 'Always' trimmed her fringe nice and short for her to have full (100%) vision.

Also, that's fair enough if their hair is tied back all the time so that they can see.

Regarding the few breeds that have their hair down covering their eyes, what about when they are standing/sitting still ...?

The dog I seen being walked I believe looked like a cross-breed (not really sure) I could not see this dogs eyes so how could he possibly see properly. Why not just trim the fringe ...? they will still look good. Cheers.

> If a dog has too much hair covering his/her eyes and cannot see properly, they cannot tell you therefore, how are you so sure that its not causing the dog a problem ...?

I'd imagin an owner paying attention to the dog would notice things to suggest if the dog was having problems seeing such as bumping into things alot, not being able to find things or having trouble finding things, being spooked by things it normaly isn't spooked by, not confident to move in unfimaler places etc. Maby even head shaking to move the fur out of its way and if they saw the dog was having a problem would do something about it.

Most pets of the long coated breeds are kept in clips mainly due to the level of grooming to keep the full coat it top condition (a dirty matted coat won't move as freely as a clean knot free coat). Then banding in full coats common.

Trimming the fur can lead to its own issue too, I've seen dogs who have had the fur around the eyes cut but when it starts to grow back it then pokes in the dogs eyes which wouldn't happen in the full coats as the fur under and between the eyes won't be sticking up and at least in my friends dogs they have think longer eyelashes that keeps the fur above the eye out it the eyes.

> Regarding the few breeds that have their hair down covering their eyes, what about when they are standing/sitting still ...? <br />

But they would only have their hair flowing freely for the few minutes they are in the ring and even then I have never seen one unable to see without it's eyes visible. 

The rest of the time it would be tied back as would some of the body coat in some breeds to preserve it's length.

Can you link to any examples?  this is the only one I can think of: https://thedogsnapper.wordpress.com/tag/ch-zentarr-elizabeth/  and even then I'd say ti only obscured the eyes not prevented her from seeing.

Just been trying to find a dog that looks like the one I seen (mentioned at the start of this topic).

Looks like it was a 'Labradoodle' (very similar).

Here is one straight after with her hair pinned up https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACTr1Rz09cpY4IjhS3muKlLWHqeiVttYBPPeo0ob1B0G1FqxIXoQmakKMdjffa7BMZMhcv9GVFWBRqpN_1tCf0d6azVyoSCVLea4qUtYepEW3yzM9osJjJKhIJ6JW21gE896gRQV6XB7IMwc8qEgnShvUHQbUWrBHPD08Kyzq8tSoSCUhehCZqQox2EXXqX8E4dM7wKhIJN99rsExkyFwRXQ2mmFlFSY0qEgm_10ZUVYFGqkxGvwqrnOX6XCSoSCX-0J_1R3prNXEdQbNAMWO1Cr&q=Best%20in%20show%20Lhasa%20apso%20UK&ved=0ahUKEwiC6eyNldXKAhWEuhoKHSZNDt8Q9C8ICQ&dpr=1.9&biw=1011&bih=493#imgrc=mtDixD-ol_rRRM%3A

> Looks like it was a 'Labradoodle' (very similar).

Well a purebred poodle would have it's face shaved and hair tied in a top knot.

People who buy the poodle crossbreeds often have no idea what to do with the coats.

I will try and find a link tomorrow evening for 'Labradoodles' seeing as this was the dog that got me thinking about this Topic in the first place. Lovely looking dog I just can't understand why the hair over his eyes wasn't trimmed to enable him to see properly.

Will also have a look at the links tomorrow that you have kindly posted. Cheers.

Wonder how blind/1 eye dogs seem to live a normal life!

He might have been overdue for a trim - I have a bunch of shih tzus who don't really come often enough, and even though I clip the heads very short every time, when they turn up on my doorstep their hair is covering the face again. :-)

> I just can't understand why the hair over his eyes wasn't trimmed to enable him to see properly. <br />

Maybe the kind of person who would buy a Poodle crossed with a very shedding breed believing the hype they are hypoallergenic is too ignorant to think of it.

> Wonder how blind/1 eye dogs seem to live a normal life!

I know a number of dogs who have had their eyes removed due to glaucoma and much to some peoples surprise cope incredibly well.

I knew one Welsh springer who still did Exemption level Obedience exercises including retrieves.

We need to remember sight is not a dogs primary sense, (comes a poor third to scent and hearing) in fact their colour perception is less than ours, though night vision better, but their sight is most attuned to movement.

My point exactly

> He might have been overdue for a trim

Indeed.  And face shape can have an effect too.  I used to one shih tzu who had a very thickly wrinkled face and a very short muzzle for the breed - I used to shave his whole face down to 4mm long every 4 weeks, but his eyes were still obscured by the next appointment.

> The genetics of the long hair don't distinguish where it grows

It can do, though - look at pekingese.  Very short hair on their faces, very long hair everywhere else.  In the long coated show type, anyhoo!

>> The genetics of the long hair don't distinguish where it grows<br />It can do, though - look at pekingese.  Very short hair on their faces, very long hair everywhere else.  In the long coated show type, anyhoo!

That isn't what I meant, I meant you have no choice in how the long coat genes express in a given breed, as you say some have long hair all over, some only in certain areas, I assume these are all due to the interaction of different genes as some long coats shed some do not some are double some are not, some have head furnishing some less.

I had a dog that needed to have an eye removed.  The remaining eye was blind.  All it takes is patience and love.  It's easy to want to "protect" a blind dog, but I didn't want a fearful dog.  Started walking around town.  Splitting the word care-ful when coming to a step.  A blind dog will use its nose to gauge distance to a step (or stair.)

Running through the fields with him was a total pleasure, he trusted that I wouldn't let him bump into anything.  Demonstrating a recall to friends, they wouldn't believe that the dog couldn't see me.  We really had the best ever relationship.

We have Spanish Water Dogs, a non moulting breed that traditionally were clipped once a year with the sheep. When their coat is long it covers their eyes making it look like they cannot see. However they certainly can! Our girls will happily do agility or hunt for their toys in the undergrowth in full coat. They have long eyelashes which keeps the long hair from going in the eyes.
That said, some prefer a shorter coat. A couple of ours try to get on the grooming table for their turn if the clippers are out. Another of ours would keep her long coat all year round,  she feels the cold and appreciates the extra coat.

Thanks for the link to the photo Brainless (username).

Lovely looking dog, can someone tell me, would she still have 'Won' if she had her hair trimmed over her eyes ...?  I don't see why not.

Here is a video of her   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Nl6NtiY0w

For showing Lhasa' s the they should be in full coat, so cutting off the top of the head fall would likley effect it if entered as the coat quality is a big part of the breed to some people (breeder, owners & judges), allthough I've never seen anyone trying to show a cut one (except in fun companion shows) to test it out, it wouldn't matter in my breed for example a shaved patch but my friend and the other owners she knows would never take one of theirs in with a chunk cut out of the coat. Some do trim the fur just at the inside edge of the eye, and feet trimming and making the bottom of the coat where it touches the floor tidy is normaly done.

I tried out having my hair over my face the other day thinking about this thread, considering as has been said sight is more important sence to us Than it is dogs I could easerly see well enough to write, watch tv, walk the dog, drive, work and play x box no differently. So if I can do all that with sight as my main sense a dog who's sight itsnt it's main sense standing and walking around a show ring for 5-10 mins shouldn't have a problem.

Also for some breeds the hair in front of their eyes protects their eyes from extreme cld.  Some of the Tibetan breeds, just like the Yaks and even highland cattle.

My (not shown) Tibetan Terrier has hair over his eyes - I trim a tiny bit away from the inside corners of his eyes but nothing else. If we are going somewhere new I tie his hair up so he definitely can see but I think I am being oversensitive as he has just spotted a squirrel on our fence, with his hair down, from the far end of my living room... so thats a distance of 20 metres roughly.. and he spotted that before the lurcher did (they were both looking into the garden at the time too!)...

I don't think its ever going to be as simple as 'all dogs should have their hair tied back or cut off' - thats not reasonable or sensible. Some dogs like mine can see, some dogs might have much heavier coat and not be able to see - surely the common sense option is to watch your dog and if you think he can't see, tie his hair back. No need for a big deal!

"I don't think its ever going to be as simple as 'all dogs should have their hair tied back or cut off' - thats not reasonable or sensible. Some dogs like mine can see, some dogs might have much heavier coat and not be able to see"

The ones that may not be able to see, are the very ones that I am worried about, hence this topic. Cheers

Replying to Compassion.

While I am always open to forum members challenging the status quo etc  ( I do so frequently )  I do find the tone of your posts , Compassion , somewhat ..well, dare I say it .. too challenging, and not , perhaps , in the sense that  you may wish to interpret this. I think it's the' cheers ' that gets my hackles rising. Reminds too much of the kind of '  no offence but..' sort of intro to a really cutting judgement that I've encountered  during my very many years on Planet Earth. If you truly have a point you wish  to make, then say it. Have the courage to do so. This is a forum ,not a kind of entrapment/subtle  interrogation system  (sadly familiar to me during another life) totally inappropriate to CD. Say what you think/believe and please, please .....no cheers !
Regards

Jan

PETA by stealth perhaps?

Mmm, someones got a not particularly hidden agenda I think!

compassion - you have, wilfully? missed my point - a wrong is only being done if the dog actually cannot see. In all my years owning dogs, showing, being involved in rescue dogs and working as a qualified behaviourist, you know I've NEVER come across a dog who could not see through a heavy fall.

I've met dogs that have theirs clipped back routinely, and dogs that have theirs trimmed short, and dogs that have nothing done - I have never, in what must be thousands of dogs, met one that walked into objects or in any other way, demonstrated behaviour that suggested they could not see.

I have, as it happens, met many dogs who have impaired vision, up to total blindness - due to eye problems or a lack of eyes - I would say 90% of those cope very well though they tend to cope better with total or near total blindness than they do with partial sight - since sight can rarely be restored, are you suggesting that all those dogs be euthanised perhaps because they cannot see properly. After all if you suggest that impairing a dogs vision by leaving it with a full fall over its eyes is unacceptable the logical next step is that vision impaired dogs and blind dogs are also unacceptable?

Sight is the least of a dog's senses, I have known(many years ago before eye testing) sheepdogs that have been partially sighted or blind & still been able to work sheep solely only commands, the shepherd only discovering the lack of sight when the dog was on/in unfamiliar ground/buildings & the.dog has run onto something.

This thread does smack of being an anti pedigree dog tirade by a rather unsubtle poster

Please don't put words into my mouth, I have stated my opinion clearly on this topic for anyone to read.

I hope my posts haven't come over as arrogant, as this was certainly not my intention.

Just been trying to find a dog that looks like the one I seen (mentioned at the start of this topic).

Looks like it was a 'Labradoodle' (very similar).

The above is my post that I made earlier in this very topic

> Looks like it was a 'Labradoodle' (very similar).<br />

but that isn't even a breed, it's a random assortment of genes from two known breeds and the outcome is unpredictable. 

The main reason they are bred is they sell better than pups from their poorly bred parents, whose purebred pups sell for less.  Yes there is a minority of Doodle breeders who have some idea of creating a breed, (though why bother as there are breeds already that look like what they are trying to accomplish, who could use new committed fanciers) but those won't be continually breeding first generation crosses.

No-one with a decent example of a Poodle or a Labrador would waste it's breeding potential on creating crossbred pups, especially from a bitch which has a limited breeding capacity (or should have, as the KC will only register 4 litters from any bitch).  Of course breeding crossbred pups is an easy way to exploit a pedigree bitch as no-one will keep track of how many unregistered litters a poor bitch has.

Yes I know there are a few examples of purpose bred working crosses produced for specific purposes like Lurchers, Hunt terriers and the guide dog Retriever crosses.

Much as i am loathe to become involved with this topic , i can see that people are being drawn in and upset by what i regard as being an internet troll. That being defined as "one who posts deliberately provocative messages to a message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption or argument". Looking back at the posts by "compassion" i feel that they may be being made by more than one person. I say this because of the change of syntax between posts. Some of the posts seem to have a completely different use of the english language than others.  Indeed i initially thought that "compassion" may be a child, or someone who does not have english as a first language, yet some other of the posts seem to be more erudite.
  I highly recommend that people just simply ignore these sort of posts. It is impossible to debate from such polarised points. The thing that really annoys me is that this forum is full of people who truly have the best interest of their dogs and indeed dogs in general, at heart. show dogs in particular have  to be maintained and presented in a healthy happy condition - peak condition . while here nonsense is being talked about the amount of hair covering a dog's eyes, there are many many dogs suffering despicable acts of cruelty every day, perhaps your energies "compassion" would be better spent pursuing these perpetrators rather than shit- stirring here

I have indeed ignored this Garbo ...only pausing to suggest to all those well meaning responders ( to this and the other provocative titles) that the OP may have an ulterior motive.

Well said Garbo.

> he has just spotted a squirrel on our fence, with his hair down, from the far end of my living room... so thats a distance of 20 metres roughly..

Love it! 

My Beardies always had hair in their eyes.  Didn't ever stop them racing round at 100 miles an hour.  I have Yorkies with hair in their eyes.  No problems at all.

I have never used the wording "hair in their eyes" I only used the wording "hair completely covering their eyes" just to be clear.

Also, 'Thanks' to the posters on here who put their views over very well (politely) without attempting to bully or belittle, at the end of the day I am entitled to put my opinion over (which I have done in a polite manner) all the way through this topic, its there for anyone to read.

If anyone can give me a good reason why the dog I seen (Labradoodle) should have its hair completely covering his eyes (so you can't even see the dogs eyes) then please tell me why ?

A Labradoodle is not a proper breed with accepted standards of presentation. Therefore the answer to your question is, I suspect, that it's feckless owners have not taken it for a trim. IMO.

> If anyone can give me a good reason why the dog I seen (Labradoodle) should have its hair completely covering his eyes (so you can't even see the dogs eyes) then please tell me why ?

Can you give a good reason why his coat shouldn't be grown? As has been said numerous times on this thread with breed with head falls like that they see perfectly fine when the fur is down with no stress due to sight not being as important to them as us so seeing threw hair would bother us more than them yet we can still do it fine as well.
Yes some in a minority of dogs it could cause an issue like with anything else (using a collar, feeding certain foods ect) but with a long coat any deasont owner should notice if their dog is having an issue and would then tie up the coat or clip it to solve the problem

I don't know how many times people can keep giving you the answer you have asked for (yet you keep asking it again ans again despite being given the answers) that fur over the eyes does not mean the dog can not see and if the dog isn't effected by it why should it be an issue,. It's like saying why should some dogs be blue it's wrong.

I suppose you could have stopped and asked the dog's owner why it had it's eyes covered...From the horses mouth....questioned then answered....