We have 2 dogs and the youngest has epilepsy. When he has a fit at night our eldest dog gets worried and scratches the kitchen door to come out, we hear this and get up to be with him. He is toilet trained to go out side but after the fit he doesn't know what's going on and two occasions when we haven't been there he has poo'd on the kitchen floor. This is bad enough but as he is staggering around getting over the fit he walks threw the poo and it's all over the kitchen floor.

Our eldest dog is aged 15 and is showing her age which I would expect. When it's her time for her to go I'm wondering how we will know when he has a fit at night. Is their a Dog Epilepsy Monitor Alarm we can buy in the UK? Does anyone know?

Surely I'm not the only person with this problem. What do other people do if they only have one dog or have other dogs that are not bothered?

I broke my golden rule and brought the dog beds in the bedroom as the fits only happen between 2am and 6am. It can be very disorientating for them coming out of a fit, so I always want to be there.  Mine never used to toilet whilst fitting, but over the years she started to poo when she was coming out of the fit, and after a few more years started weeing whilst fitting (mine has pretty severe epilepsy, even with medication). I keep a towel under the dog bed so it can be whipped out instantly when needed, and we are all half asleep!

Does the dog having the fit make any noise? If so what about a baby monitor?

He doesn't make any noise when he's fitting so a baby monitor wouldn't work.

I was wondering what do parents do when they have babies or children with epilepsy if they don't sleep in their parents room?

Tricolours,

I use a Motorola Baby Alarm. You can plug it into a socket in your kitchen (so no batteries needed) and one in your bedroom and then you will hear what is going on.

Not sure from your post if you separate your dogs or not? If you do not, it is vital that you do so because your other dog could get seriously hurt by a fitting dog. The 'bite' power of a fitting dog is scary. Mine latched onto his 'heavy duty' bed, through his tongue on one occasion and it took ages for him to release his grip. My blood runs cold to think what would have happened if he had latched onto my other dog and not his bed that night.

> He doesn't make any noise when he's fitting so a baby monitor wouldn't work.

Sorry, I didn't see that before I replied! Does he not 'paddle' when he is fitting then? What about heavy breathing/panting?

Yes he does paddle but I can't hear him panting. Sometimes he knocks things over like his water bowl.

No we don't keep them separate but my other dog is frightened and keeps out of his way as soon as he starts fitting. But it's something that needs thinking about thanks for mentioning it.

Unfortunately a fellow-breeder living overseas had hounds that suffered with this and when they went into a fit, it would set the others off, so she had no need of an alarm.    I guess you could just bring your dog into your room overnight, unless doing this will cause him undue stress.

You do need to try to get him on the right medication so his episodes are few, if not at all?

And I certainly would separate them, at least for now and at the times you anticipate fitting.   As said, dogs in a seizure are out of it and would snap at anybody who comes near.

He's on medication from the vet and has regular blood tests. But he still gets fits occasionally and when he does they cluster.
If after a fit he poo'd and then he walked round it i wouldn't have a problem with it. But that doesn't happen he walks threw it backwards and forwards until it's like a carpet of poo. On one particular occasion it was so bad i didn't know where to start to clean it up. In the end i used a wallpaper scraper. It's an experience I never want to go threw again.

It's not like he's in a kennel where it can be hosed down. I have to find a way of stopping this.

It can't be anticipated.

When he's fitting he doesn't open his mouth.

I have no experience of fits but maybe train him to use a crate at night so at least the mess is contained and your other dog is safe. The baby monitor idea might work better as well if he has a cage to rattle.

I'd have him in the bedroom with you in a soft crate and use shredded paper. 

So if he poos it will quickly get soaked up and covered in the shredded paper keeping him cleaner and making it easier and less unpleasant to dispose of. 

With a canvas crate the shredded paper will remain contained.

How would I train a dog of 12 years who's never seen in a crate?

Most will accept a soft crate as their bed. 

With you in the bedroom I'm sure he'd soon be happy.

You could feed his dinner in there and make ti a nice place to be.

I don't use crates at home yet have no trouble with the dogs accepting them at show, in hotels or in the car.

How do you transport your dog in the car?

> How would I train a dog of 12 years who's never seen in a crate?

Jill you would be surprised.  I have a Yorkshire Terrier bitch who has never been crated.  Add to that the fact that she is a total maniac.  She only does fast forward!  She needed an operation for patella luxation and the vet wanted her crated for 12 weeks afterwards.  I wondered how the hell I'd cope, but knew that people who felt sorry for their dog, letting them out after too short a time - then saying that the op didn't work.  Mmmmm!  It works ok.  My girl is full of life and has an active life in front of her - so well worth the 12 weeks in a crate.  I even had to take her up the garden on a lead.

So I honestly think I would go with Barbara's suggestion.  If he fits he isn't going to hurt himself in a soft carrier.  Definitely worth trying IMHO. 

Don't have experience of epilepsy in dogs only humans, but ours have had more than their fair share of problems that has (perhaps just us) required we're with them at night & as they don't do stairs sleep with them down stairs, two months recently, even on the the kitchen floor over Christmas! Realise as he's occasionally defecating, you're wanting some sort of alarm but wouldn't it be worth having him with you at night so you can be there from the start, if he's not crate trained but how about a ridged plastic basket with towels sleeping along side you with a sheet on the floor, disposable incontinence sheets are great. Would suggest that if he does settle in a soft cage, that it's as large as possible to allow him freedom of movement if he thrashes.

NEVER crate a dog that has seizures - they will seriously injure themselves if you do so.

Tricolours, I too left my dogs together (before I knew better) and with the same logic. My Bitch was terrified of my dog when he was having a seizure and placed herself as far away from him as possible. In many ways I knew when he was going to have a seizure because she started to distance herself from him - at times days before it actually happened.

What I had not realised to begin with, was although the actual seizure was a problem - my dogs behaviour towards my bitch AFTER the seizure had finished was a bigger problem. He wasn't 'with it' for hours after his fit, but immediately afterwards he would frantically pace, bouncing off the walls (trying to get rid of the adrenalin) and if she was in the same room - he would start on her - mounting her and body barging her. She was a strong (both mentally and physically)  bitch and was used to rough play with him and could hold her own. However, in this situation she was terrified.

The problem with seizures is that they change over time and as the brain receives more 'damage'. He may not open his mouth now but that may change and that is the worry. You may not be around to see what happens, so please think hard about moving your other dogs to safety, if you are not around to supervise them. It really is not worth the risk.

The baby monitor I have recommended picks up the slightest sound (especially in a quiet bedroom). The other thing you could do is buy a dog bed with a 'noisy' surface. I have a heavy duty 'linen' bed (by House of Paws) that is very tough and noisy if a dog is scrabbling. I have also used waterproof 'nylon' covers (check out amazon) with duvets inside of them - again, noisy if the dog moves. You soon learn to tell the difference between a dog turning over and one in trouble.

My Vet once told me that a dog with seizures was THE worst thing that an owner has to deal with - she was not wrong. It is so hard and I do know how you feel.

Admin, can you give me a link to the beds you mentioned please.

My husband likes the idea of a baby monitor you suggested Admin so that's what we are getting, at least trying anyway. My husbands was shocked when I mentioned putting him in a cage as we have never done this even with puppies. We are not going to do this as I agree he could get hurt.

I agree a dog with seizures is the worst thing we have ever had to deal with.

I don't know if you can buy something like this or whether it's practical or not. Many years ago (about 35) when my son was a tiny baby, there were concerns, which I won't go into here, that he could suffer from cot death syndrome (SIDS). I was loaned a blow up mattress to put under his cot sheet which beeped as he breathed and then alarm would sound if he stopped breathing. My thoughts are that if your dog started to fit, the mattress monitor would start beeping rapidly alerting you to the change in breathing. It's just a thought really as I can imagine dogs change their position a lot and get off their beds from time to time, so may well be not terribly practical. It was just a thought really.

Good idea and something to think about Jodi.

> immediately afterwards he would frantically pace, bouncing off the walls (trying to get rid of the adrenalin) and if she was in the same room - he would start on her - mounting her and body barging her.

No he doesn't do that. He likes to go in the garden and stagger about on his own. We were told by the vet to leave him and not touch him.

> NEVER crate a dog that has seizures - they will seriously injure themselves if you do so. <br />

I would disagree  a soft crate would help buffer the dog.

I agree a wire crate a dog could injure themselves.

An airline type crate should also have minimal risk

>I would disagree  a soft crate would help buffer the dog.

I hear what you say about buffering, but you are forgetting about the paddling. With my own breeds and the 'violence' of the seizure, the paddling movement would destroy the cage in a very short space of time and then the dog would become entangled. It is very dangerous to go near a fitting dog or one that is coming out of a seizure. They really do not know where they are or what is going on around them for varying lengths of time afterwards - and during this time, they are dangerous. I had to sit (at a distance) and watch my dog for nearly an hour after a particularly horrible attack and when he had bitten through his tongue and into his bed. His mouth was clamped and there was no way we or he, could release it or his tongue! As he came out of the fit, he was pacing around like a mad thing, dragging his bed as he couldn't let go of it. It was carnage and I hate to think what would have happened if he had also been penned in, even if it was in a soft crate. If a dog became entangled, it would panic even more when it started to come round and you would put yourself at a great risk trying to free them.

>No he doesn't do that. He likes to go in the garden and stagger about on his own. We were told by the vet to leave him and not touch him.

Mine didn't do it at first either Tricolours. Your vet is right and no matter how tempting it is to try and stop them hurting themselves - you just have to stay away and that is very difficult. I learnt the hard way, when my dog launched himself at my face when I was trying to stop him slamming into the garden tap and taking his own eye out!

House of Paws - Waterproof dog bed. I use the oval (green) one. They are not cheap but they are the best quality beds I have come across and worth the money. My dogs always chew their beds and yet, these are to 'firm' to chew, so they don't bother! You may also be able to find them cheaper, if you shop about. They are easy to wash off too (but don't soak them).

Waterproof cover

I agree they are dangerous when they are coming out of a fit. Our dog has the sweetest nature normally but in the early days when the epilepsy started, when he was coming out of a fit I wasn't doing anything to him just standing watching him and he stared back at me growling. I didn't touch him or move I just looked away and then he staggered in another direction. To keep our selves safe we just open the back door and he goes outside and we shut the door behind him until he gets other it. When he comes back in he's back to his normal happy self.

Thank you admin for the links.

"It is very dangerous to go near a fitting dog or one that is coming out of a seizure. They really do not know where they are or what is going on around them for varying lengths of time afterwards - and during this time, they are dangerous."

Not true, all dogs are individuals and their reactions will vary. I've had 2 epileptic dogs and was able to stroke and reassure both whilst they were fitting and then coming round. I would want the dog who fits to be in the bedroom with me as you need to time how long the fit lasts in case the dog is in danger of going into status (which is potentially life-threatenening). I was told that a fit lasting more than 2 minutes was considered to be a dog at risk.

Interesting marisa.

Thanks Tricolours. Once I knew my dogs were epileptic, I tried not to leave them unattended at all as you never know when they might have a fit (not always practical I know but I've been lucky enough to be at home most of the time so able to keep an eye on them).

Do you ever go away without taking them with you?

>Not true, all dogs are individuals and their reactions will vary.

I agree all dogs are individuals. However, Veterinary advice (and common sense) say it is dangerous to go near a fitting dog and extreme caution should be used when dogs are coming out of fits. You may be willing to risk injury to yourself to 'reassure' your dog when it is fitting or when they are recovering, but that is your choice and not something that should be recommended for others. Thousands of people read this forum and may be tempted to stroke their dogs in this situation (it is very hard not to when you see a much loved dog in this state) - but they need to be aware that they take a huge risk and that they go against Veterinary advice to do so. 

Like you (and before I knew better!) I too, would sit on the floor close to my dog and just talk to him, not touch him. It was ok for a couple of times but then as the seizures worsened, the day came when (coming out of a seizure) he went for my face. I was sitting on the floor talking to him softly and did not have time to get up as he launched himself at me. I punched him hard (not something I am proud of) but it was enough to throw him backwards and allow me time to get away from him - lesson learnt. It taught me that my Vet was right - keep your distance and do not take any risks.

It is not always practical to have a dog in your bed room with you. Especially if they mess when fitting and/or stumble around when coming out of a fit. I wonder how you get your dogs down stairs and out into the gardens when this happens? I would not want a disorientated/stumbling dog trying to negotiate stairs.

I do agree totally about timing seizures if you are around to do so. If a seizures lasts longer than 5 minutes, you need to call your Vet. If it lasts longer than 10 minutes then your dog is in real trouble and a Vet is needed straight away.

Believe it or not, the baby alarm works fine (especially combined with the noisy bedding). When you live with dogs that have seizures you develop an 'ear' for 'sound/movement'. Even when you are half asleep, your 'ear' is tuned into listening out for 'that' sound and you wake up. It is no hardship to glance at the clock the second you wake up and get down the stairs to see what is happening - again glancing at the clock to see how long it has been.

I guess we all have our own mechanisms for coping and it is down to what works best for us and our situations - but please, do not go near a fitting dog and do not assume that because they are coming out of it - you will be 100% safe. It does not work like that and it is always better to be safe, than sorry.

I'm sure people know their dogs best and if they did find the dog was unpredictable during/after a fit they would use their common sense.

"It is not always practical to have a dog in your bed room with you. Especially if they mess when fitting and/or stumble around when coming out of a fit. I wonder how you get your dogs down stairs and out into the gardens when this happens? I would not want a disorientated/stumbling dog trying to negotiate stairs."

If you don't have the dog in the bedroom with you how do you know when the fit(s) started? The mess would not concern me, I would be thinking about the dog more than anything (and, yes, mine always weed themselves during a fit). With the stairs, you can use a baby gate at the top of the stairs and then wait until the dog has come round sufficiently to take them outside if necessary but the perceived wisdom is to let them recover in a quiet, darkened room afterwards. They usually pee/poo during the fit so it's too late to take them out afterwards in any case.

"I do agree totally about timing seizures if you are around to do so. If a seizures lasts longer than 5 minutes, you need to call your Vet."

Sorry but five minutes is too long, it should be take action after TWO minutes (and that seems an age when you are watching them fit).

>I'm sure people know their dogs best and if they did find the dog was unpredictable during/after a fit they would use their common sense.

The point that needs to be made loud and clear is that dogs are not themselves during or after a fit and seizures change over time. What worked for one seizure may be totally different for the next. Obviously people coming into this situation for the first time are in total shock and deeply upset by what they see. They need to know that staying away from their dog is a priority.

>If you don't have the dog in the bedroom with you how do you know when the fit(s) started?

I think you must have small dogs. If you had a large breed, then you would know how impractical it would be to have a fitting, messing dog in your bedroom. You know because you can hear them 'paddling/jolting'- the baby alarm works perfectly well and picks up the sounds. If you live with an epileptic dog for any length of time, your brain tunes into the 'noises' and you do wake the second you hear that sound. As I have already said, you glance at the clock the second you wake and again on getting down stairs and you will know how long the fit is taking. Fits come in all shapes and sizes, but most will not be over before you have time to jump out of bed and down the stairs. Even if they are, you know the time they started because you looked at your clock the second your eyes open.

> Sorry but five minutes is too long, it should be take action after TWO minutes.

"When should I contact my vet? When your dog starts a seizure make a note of the time. If your dog comes out of the seizure within 5 minutes then allow him time to recover quietly before contacting your vet. If this is the first seizure your dog has had your vet may ask you to bring your dog into the next routine appointment for a check and some routine blood tests. It is far better for your dog to recover quietly at home rather than be bundled into the car and carted off to the vet right away. However, if your dog does not come out of the seizure within 5 minutes, or has repeated seizures close together, then you should contact your vet immediately, as they will want to see your dog as soon as possible. Always call your vet’s practice before driving to the hospital to be sure that there is someone at the hospital who can help your pet." Canine Epilepsy

I agree Marisa. Watching a beloved dog (or any dog) have a seizure is deeply distressing. It is probably the worst thing that you can ever witness as a dog owner and no matter how many years you live with it - you never get used to it. But you do learn how to cope with it and we all have our own systems in place to do so.

No, I don't have small dogs, I have Border Collies. Vets say that a lot of owners don't actually know their dog is epileptic for a while because they have missed fits that happened whilst they were asleep. And once I know my dog is epileptic there is no way I want him/her in a different room (and not even on the same level as me unless I happen to live in a bungalow). Each to their own but I prefer to do everything possible to keep my dog safe and if that means the dog unwittingly pees/poos in my bedroom I think it a small price to pay. Neither of my dog's behaviour changed at all during their fitting and one had over 70 fits in an 18 month period before we decided he had been through enough. I won't write any more on this subject as I doubt we'll agree.

We do not need to agree Marisa It is the debate that matters and the idea's that come from that debate.

Hundreds if not thousands of dogs have seizures whilst people are at work, at the shops, taking kids to school etc. The owners are none the wiser. You can not be with your dogs 24/7 - 365 days of the year, unless you are totally housebound. As already said, we all have our own mechanisms for copying with what is, a terrible condition. It is a life changing condition not only for the dogs, but for their owners.  Your solution is to keep your dogs in your bedroom. To me and many others that is impractical on so many levels. To imply that people who do not sleep with their 'fitting' dogs are not keeping them 'safe', is daft. The baby monitor works very well and this is why I recommend it. You prefer to sleep with your dogs and recommend that. The up shot is that anyone whom visits the forum looking for advice, now has two idea's to be going on with. They will decide which is best for them, their dogs and circumstances so everyone wins. Epilepsy is an awful condition and the AHT are making leaps and bounds to get to grips with it. That day can not come soon enough, but for now .. we just have to love our dogs and cope as best we can.

> The baby monitor works very well and this is why I recommend it.

I have to say as I use a  baby monitor after the first week when I have pups, if your in tune to a babies/litters/dogs/OAP's potential needs they work very well and are sensitive enough to catch sounds of distress.  The one my sister has will alert if the baby stops breathing.

Just wondered how you are getting on?

Our 15 year old dog was sadly put to sleep a month ago so on your recommendation Admin I bought the Motorola Baby Alarm and it was a success. Three nights ago he had a fit in his plastic bed which is in the kitchen, and in the bedroom the noise from the scratching woke us up at the beginning of the fit and we were at his side straight away. Thanks so much.

Glad it has helped. Sometimes it is the little (practical) things that make all the difference to living with this condition. Thankfully, the AHT are making huge progress on Epilepsy at the moment. It won't help dogs whom suffer from the condition now, but thank heavens that future owners and their dogs will not have to live with this awful condition. Sorry to hear about your 15 year old too.