Yesterday morning, I glimpsed something scuttle across our patio and under the shed. Then it scuttled back again and left the garden. A brown rat! I am now suspicious that there may be a rat's nest under the shed. I will contact a pest control firm tomorrow, but if they need to use poison, how do we keep the dogs safe? Would we need to keep them out of the back garden? It's not just the poison, but the possibility of poisoned rats around....also, would there be danger to hedgehogs? Help!

personally i would not let pest control use poison, there are rat traps you can get, theyre about  the same as mouse traps only bigger, another thought is find out from somewhere if a ferret person will do it or other similar animals such as mink, there must be another way but i would never allow poison around my dogs territory.

You might get some results if you ask about this on a farming forum.

ferret forum
http://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/ferrets.21/

Thank you, I will look at that forum.

I agree with Hethspaw.  Do not use the pest control firm.   The best way to get rid of them is to poke everything out from under the shed and have someone nearby with a broom and shovel to smash them hard. Then after that just check underneath every week.
My friend who owns a caravan park shoots them when seen but I don't advise that.

Me too re poison although we have had the local Council out and they put rat boxes in the areas were there were obviously rats around.   We covered the boxes so the hounds couldn't get to the actual boxes (which were filled with poison bait), BUT I was also aware of dead rat bodies potentially lying around.  Which meant we had to do an area check before letting our lot out.   The trouble is rats are everywhere and if you see one, chances there are another dozen around.   When this happened to us, we lived on a farm, backing onto a grain silo.

I think you probably have to make sure your animals are vaccinated/boostered and hope for the best really.

How about borrowing a Jackie!!!!!   These will catch and dispatch rats in a flash.

Get a Toy Poodle.  They are very good at despatching rodents.

if it went under the shed, if there is a gap between shed and ground you could get someone or you to look for a hole & then just flood it with a hosepipe. Its an ideal place to lay baited traps, I have no idea what bait to use though, when baiting traps its best to let them have a few freebies for a short time with traps laid out but not set and make it an available food source area, then set traps and bait.

Good grief, reading back at  my posts i sound like a class A1 homecidal maniac

do you have local hunt near you as terrier men could bring their terriers and flush rats out and get rid of them
terriers are great raters
good luck hope you get rid of them nasty little sods !!!

just remmberd my papa was talking to terrier man from our local hunt.papa got pup from terrierman this would be about 34yr ago i was just toddler.dena parants were raters also used to flush foxes out for hunt anyway the terrier man said if his terriers got biten by rat he gave them milk something in milk helped fight poison
you can get poison that not poison to dogs
i would go with getting terrierman from hunt

We have 2 Patterdales and still have rats - that is the joy of living in the wilds of Norfolk.
Even though the Patts catch many rats we still had them around the stable ( horses, goats and sheep) and the chicken coop where the Patts are not allowed to go.
We have a contract with the 'Rat Man' to come round every few weeks to check and top up the poison boxes. The boxes are dog safe and he is very careful where he places them in areas where the dogs cannot reach. Even if they did manage to reach a box it is doubtful that they would get into it assuming they would want to as it is not made to appeal to other animals, and the boxes are very secure ( unlike the DIY boxes you can buy)

The Rat Man always tells us exactly where he has placed the boxes and in the 5 years he has been doing this we have not had any dogs interested in the slightest with the boxes and our stables and out buildings are clear of rats. The final straw cam 5 years ago when I went into the stable at dusk and stepped on a rat and another ran over my foot - that was it and war was declared.

We have never seen any dead bodies around as they tend to die in their nests, but at the beginning we interrogated the Rat Man about what would happen if the dogs found a rat that had been poisoned and he confirmed that the amount of poison in a rat would not cause a problem with a dog, but it was unlikely they would see any bodies, and he was right.
My main problem is rabbits that have been poisoned by the farmer in the fields near our property, they tend to just lie around to die instead of going underground.

We got 3 feral cats a few years ago to try to keep the rats down, but we ended up with 3 very fat feral cats that were so surrounded in rats that they didn't need to chase around for food so became lazy sleeping all day and not getting rid of any rats apart from the few they used for food.

ment to say be carefull if you have straw bedding etc
i deveopled horrible red rash very itchy  went to doctor he said it was due to rats peeing on horses bedding still have scars on my legs from straw been peed on by rats

I would suggest sending my husband round as he killed a rat the other week, but I suspect this was a one off and he got lucky.
We've long suspected we had a rat around due to the bird feeders. One evening he was just about to let the dog out and spotted a rat actually inside the caged bit of the feeder which stops squirrels getting at the food. The flipping rat had eaten so much food that it was having trouble squeezing back out of the cage and was a bit stuck. Hubby grabbed his heavy walking stick and smacked the rat very successfully.

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Elizabeth Kingsbury says: Hi it's horrid when despite keeping everything clean there things move in. I had them where I had rabbits in open pens and free roaming ducks!!! Pest control know what they are doing and put the poison down in protected boxes which can be anchor to something. Check for bodies in morning before letting dogs out and should be ok. Take their advice as you can't afford to let the things start multiplying!!!! Hope this helps a bit.

Thomas Wilson says: Borrow a friends terrier theyll sort the problem out in 5 mins

Even if the authorities say they are using poison that's 'safe to use around pets', I'd still be very careful.   Rat poison works by thinning the blood.  If the dog happened to get hold of a dying, or dead rat, from being poisoned, there could still be trouble.   If you can find a terrier(s) to borrow, that might help, but just know, rats are EVERYWHERE.   And will come in to feed under bird feeders - they do here and I'm now living in town.   It's really just a matter of limiting where they can move in that's close to your actual house.

> My main problem is rabbits that have been poisoned by the farmer in the fields near our property, they tend to just lie around to die instead of going underground.

Are you sure they have been poisoned? There is a new strain of the RVHD virus around which is affecting wild (and sadly, also domestic) rabbits.

We have rats in our garden, unfortunately we had no option than to call out the council and pay for their help.  It wasn't just one or two, there were loads of them, they chewed through the walls of our log cabin, so we covered the bottom rows with tin, they then ate their way up through the floor.  which is now covered in concrete blocks.  We're surrounded by woodland, front, back, side of our house and our only neighbours have free range hens running loose in the garden, so they have food down at all times.  The council came out, put 10 shovels of poison down the many rat holes in the bank, which was all gone within days, this is the top of our garden where the dogs don't go, a week later all gone, so the same put down again this week and they'll be back again next week to do the same if need be.

As the ratman said, while being surrounded by woodland we'll never be completely rid of them, but hopefully this has kept the numbers down slightly

We also live on a farm and have rats. That have been known to come into the house after harvesting, ( inside the house walls) Our rat man has dog proof boxes with poison and we have never had a problem. The only issue I have with him is that he brings his JRT with him and that upsets my dogs.

I agree with MamaBas. Last year I had Fleur spayed. During the operation she haemorrhaged badly. After tests the vet thought she had picked up enough poison from a dead rat to cause this. Without the operation she would probably not have shown any signs of a problem. She's fine now with no lasting ill effects.

There are groups that have ratting dogs. I'm now a member of two as I've been looking into  terrier and lurcher work.I've also thought deeply,and read a lot, about the ethics of ratting with dogs. 

Particularly when there's other livestock around - dogs, ducks, sheep, cows etc poison is dangerous (I very nearly lost a dog to rat poison) I don't particularly like traps as, despite the fact that rats do so much damage and cause health issues, I don't like the idea of drawn out suffering, if avoidable.

I've asked on one group that specialises in ratting and there are people who can/will help.  If you want to join or just give me your area to put you in. contact, let me know.

I am sure that if a dog has become ill after finding a poisoned rat then it is most likely a rat that has been killed using a DIY poison bought and used by an untrained person. The official ratman has training on the use of poisons and which one to use depending on the circumstances, they tend to be very knowledgeable on the subject. Our ratman usually has a couple of terriers with him but leaves them in the van due to the number of dogs we have.  Also the poison is much safer than the diy ones bought over the counter, and the boxes are very safe indeed. We would not take chances with any of our dogs, but are very happy with our ratman.

Rats will breed so fast and if left then you will have a carpet of them everywhere, they also can be very aggressive if you go near one of their nests, hissing like a snake and likely to jump at you and get their teeth into you ( or your dog) many infections spread this way.

Are you sure they have been poisoned? There is a new strain of the RVHD virus around which is affecting wild (and sadly, also domestic) rabbits.

Yes it is poison as he used to have his 'lackey' shoot the rabbits which I complained about when he used to shoot along our hedge line as I was concerned the shotgun pellets could come through the hedgerow and hit one of the dogs or horses as they walked along this area. He agreed to stop shooting near my hedgerow but said he would have to use poison instead as the rabbits cleared his fields of produce within days of the green shoots appearing. We have also Myxomatosis from time to time, but the poor little souls become blind with this before becoming prey to the foxes. The joys of the countryside.......

Just a quick response to part of your very interesting and informative post.
My dog ate rat poison, I used to take them to work with me when I did overtime out of hours - it is a long time ago and he did, thankfully recover, it was touch and go though - very scary.

I also now appreciate the rat problem, hence my post.  I also remember when I helped out at a small stables we had to empty it out and chase and kill rats and mice using shovels to bash them to death.  Dogs are much quicker and more humane IMHO.

> Yes it is poison as he used to have his 'lackey' shoot the rabbits which I complained about when he used to shoot along our hedge line as I was concerned the shotgun pellets could come through the hedgerow and hit one of the dogs or horses as they walked along this area. He agreed to stop shooting near my hedgerow but said he would have to use poison instead as the rabbits cleared his fields of produce within days of the green shoots appearing.

No need, if he gets RVHD2 in there. It's a new strain from the continent and it's killing pet rabbits by the hundreds as there is no vaccine for it readily available.

How do you poison rabbits anyway? Strychnine-laced carrots?

It became illegal in uk within this past 4-7 years to use poison in box traps to kill squirrels, i know that from a wood owner who used to use that method to kill squirrels, he said it was an EU law. I dont know if covers all poisons and all species or what but he did not have a way to poison them at that time he told me (appx 4 years ago or just less) - he used to use warfrin based.

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Emma Judson Says: Ensure that the pest controller is aware you have pets, and where those pets have access too.

Its possible for them to put bait in places the dogs can't get to it, and its possible to use bait that stays in one place, for example, lockable bait stations - ratty comes in, eats, leaves.

Rats don't drop dead of poison in seconds, they go home, they feel poorly, they stay home and TEND to die in their nest. Where they die away from the nest they generally make every effort to go somewhere secure, secluded and out of the way.

This means the likelyhood of your dogs accessing a dead rat is very low indeed.

Secondary poisoning is something pest controllers and poison manufacturers are aware of and take into account - hedgehogs are unlikely to eat either wax blocks or grain, particularly if they are kept in a bait station that they cannot get into.

They may in extremis, sample a dead rat but this is unlikely.

The sensible thing to do would be to use a lockable bait station or two, in secure areas - and then before you let your dogs out each morning/afternoon, have a quick check for any dead rats.

Supervise your dogs for a week or two and if you see them sniffing anywhere with particular interest, investigate to see if there is a dead rat - pest controller should come back after a week and see how the progress is and they will remove any dead rats they can get to.

IF your dog does eat a dead rat, unless your dog is a similar size to the rat it is unlikely anything serious will happen (because the amount of poison required to kill a rat, ie, the LD50, is considerably less than that required to kill a dog), but its good to know and make sure you are aware ahead of time what the poison used IS, and what the antidote to it is.