I have a 16 week old GSD from working lines.  I wanted a dog from working lines as I was told they had solid temperaments and no fear.  I don't know if my dog is the exception to that rule but she definitely has fears and I am finding them hard to deal with.  She has no interest in people which people find odd when they come up to pet her, she simply ignores them.  Sometimes she will bark if they look odd but she mostly ignores them.  What she doesn't ignore is everything else.

She's scared of traffic, which isn't great as we live near a really busy road.  I try giving her treats when she looks at traffic but she still won't walk by without freaking out.

She is also extremely lead reactive towards other dogs and goes insane when we see one.  Sometimes if they are far enough away I can distract her with a treat, but because we live in a busy area they often appear from around corners and that pushes her way over the threshold.  She lunges with hackles up while barking non stop, it's really embarrassing.  I had to stop taking her to dog training classes as she would bark at the other puppies non stop and would snap if one came near her.

Oddly she seems ok with most dogs off the lead, unless its another puppy, and will try and play with some dogs.

She also hates getting in the car and shows fearful behaviour when I touch her collar, or try and put her collar on, and is scared of things like the hoover and the sound of other dogs barking.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong and to be honest I'm not enjoying her much at the moment, as it seems she just reacts to everything.

Would you start at the beginning?  How long have you had her?   Did you chose her from the litter?   What was she like then?   Have you asked the breeder for advice?  Have you spoken to anyone who chose a puppy at the same time?   At the puppy class did the instructor suggest anything?

Hi, I got her at the usual age, 8 weeks.  She was fine then, but she has been reactive since I started taking her out.  Even when I was carrying her places she was barking at dogs.

I don't know anyone else who bought a puppy, and the breeder didn't understand as neither parents show such reactions.  Both are working dogs.

The instructor suggested some things to get her focus back on me but she was too frenzied.  She would stop for a second then start again.  Its odd because at home shes normally great at her obedience, and even on walks when it's quiet and there is nothing to set her off.

What had the breeder done with the pups before they were sold? I.e. were they reared indoors or in a kennel, had they been exposed to household noises (vacuum cleaner, TV, radio and similar), sudden movements, people of different ages and looks, vehicles, other animals etc etc? This can have a lot to do with it if it wasn't done.

They were reared in the house I think for the first 6 weeks and then moved into a kennel.  I guess they would have been exposed to household things.  I'm not that bothered about being scared of the hoover, it's more everything else when out of the house.

I don't know if the breeder let them meet people of different ages, or other dogs.  They had other dogs of their own if that is what you mean.

I guess some of her reactions are surprising as I thought working line dogs were not supposed to be nervy.  She's not a gibbering wreck by any stretch, it's just her major lead reactivity that is bothering me most.

What training methods have you been using with her, and how much exersize and mental stimulation does she get a day currently.

Would be worth finding a new class that is happy to work on her around other dogs. She could just be getting over aroused and frustrated while on the lead. A good class can give you and her a safe controlled place to work around other dogs.

As the breeder breeds working dogs do you know what type of training they use on their dogs and if they had done any with the pups? Wonder if her being afraid of having her neck/collar touched could be from some handling she may have received.

> I wanted a dog from working lines as I was told they had solid temperaments and no fear.

Would be more line/enviromental dependant I'd imagin rather than all working lines being good. Ive known people who have had/bred working line shepherds and they have in the past said that some are just not suited to a pet life with having so much drive and some don't seem have a off switch.

Some are more difficult to train than others, I absolutely love GERMAN SHEPHERDS they are so 'Loyal' (Wonderful Breed). German Shepherds are very smart (extremely intelligent) I would advise you to go to someone who really understands the breed and I would imagine they will train your dog for you very easily.

It could possibly be her ears or eyes or both.   Are her ears clean?   Get the vet to check deep inside.   You should be able to buy CleanAural at any open pet shop today. Forget the treats for the moment. No, I'm not daft just had various dogs!

> . Ive known people who have had/bred working line shepherds and they have in the past said that some are just not suited to a pet life with having so much drive and some don't seem have a off switch

Yep -I'd suggest a puppy coming from a working line would mean there's more liklihood the pup would be a good worker.   BUT environment plays almost as big a part as genetics and I'd not be surprised if a puppy from a working line, wasn't perhaps a bit shy.   And actually if you are worried about her not responding to strangers, I'd not be overly concerned about that.  GSDs can be very much 'one person' dogs.   

Being better off the lead than on could well suggest when on a lead, she's feeling 'vulnerable' and is using an 'attack the best form of defence' attitude.

Her other problems could be totally down to being reared in a 'working environment' and not house-reared.   We had our puppies in the kitchen once up and moving around (at first they were in a corner of the living room, well away from any normal household noises so mum could get on with her job in peace) so they got used to normal household noises, and the other hounds coming and going, even if they were in their big whelping box, not in direct contact with them.

Carrying her places as a puppy wasn't really a good idea other than to get her out and about but not on the ground, I suppose.  

Her being neck sensitive could be she wasn't, perhaps, introduced to wearing her puppy collar correctly.   If there was any tugging or pulling on the lead early on, that would/could make any puppy collar/lead shy.   And ditto with too much exposure to the outside world, too soon/fast.

Bottom line - a dog may come from 'good working lines', but that doesn't necessarily mean they make good family pets.  My opinion.

solid temperaments and no fear is not guaranteed just because its working lines.  However the pup you have is the pup you have. I would agree form what I have heard , mine isnt working lines , the off button in some is a problem and many need a lot of mental exercise as well as appropriate physically. at this age I would be taking everything at the pups speed. If he is showing signs of discomfort , barking etc even if it includes lunging at the other thing/ dog  be guided by him move away .  Get in a good positve trainer who knows what they are doing and how to help.
No rushing the dog it will only make things worse, no forcing the dog or cm style tactics all gently and reassurance and a lot of distance between you and the other dogs or whatever is causing the reaction

Practice with treats focusing n you . this can be done at any time , before dinner when putting on and taking of the lead and just generally at times you want. getting a solid eye contact to you will be always a good exercise.
Have you  asked the breeder for advice assuming this is a experience responsible breeder. I really hope so

I walk her for about half an hour to fourty minutes off lead in the morning, we play and she runs around with other dogs.  She seems to be ok off the lead.  Then I take her out for a short lead walk later in afternoon and this is when she tends to kick off at other dogs, traffic etc.  We will do a training session in the house in the evening if she is in the mood, where I teach her different tricks, work on basic obedience etc.

She has an off switch as she settles in her crate and when we aren't doing anything provided she's been exercised.

I feel like I can't win, as I have read so many times they should be taken out from the moment you get them, to get them used to the outside world? but you say I shouldn't have done that? surely that would likely make a dog worse not going out until they are 12 weeks after they have have their jabs?

She was house reared for the first 6 weeks.

Not a GSD person, but I have friends in Germany who have stock working GSDs, who have a very similar work drive etc as the sports line dogs.

You are exercising this 16 week old puppy for periods up to 40 minutes ? Not something I would consider doing with my sheepdogs nor would my friends who have GSDs even off lead, no more than 20 minutes at a time, will cause less physical damage.

ALL puppies need socialization & TBH there's nothing wrong with carrying young puppies so they can see & hear new things in different environs safely in close contact with you.

I don't know how many people on here have owned/ been in close contact with GSDs so please don't assume that everyone posting has any indepth knowledge of the breed.

The temperament of the working line German GSDs has to be rock solid, unlike show/pet bred types. The work/sports they take part in tests the character & temperament to the full. However GSDs are quite a vocal breed & barking at other dogs isn't aggression & shows a lack of knowledge in the dog of dog body language. Socialization with well adjusted adult dogs is a must, they will teach puppies how yo behave, meet & greet other dogs, how to play etc

99% of people see a barking lunging puppy as aggressive, it isn't, with GSDs it's far more likely to be an invitation to play, I know my sheepdogs have learn to rough house with GSDs after being with them for a period of time.

You need a well structured training club, that allows interaction between adults & puppies so your puppy learns from other dogs the acceptable behaviour, they, after all, the real experts in dog behaviour

Surely at 16 weeks you are only just beginning to get her used to things outside the home in a gentle manner.

How many classes has she had time to attend and be dismissed from, or did you simply get embarrassed and stopped going, you need to persevere, remain calm and keep her at a distance she is comfortable with  from whatever she reacts to.

Did you start for example by carrying her from 8 weeks old when walking near traffic, and only then progressing to watching it at a distance.

Did you introduce the lead gradually at home, before expecting her to cope with outside stimulus while walking on led.

Do you allow her to interact with other dogs, are you sure her reaction to them is fear/excitement, if she integrated normally with the dogs at the breeders home.

Did the training class trainer give any advice.

> <br />The temperament of the working line German GSDs has to be rock solid, unlike show/pet bred types.

    Having had one of my hounds who really disliked the show scene to the point there really was no reason to keep taking her out (which was frustrating as she was good enough to pick up a RCC!) I have to suggest that actually it's equally important for a show dog to have a solid temperament!!!  And who needs a pet who could go to fear biting.

I do believe owners, especially novice owners, can benefit from getting their youngsters to a good training class, as much to learn how to handle their pups, as their puppies to learn how to behave.

She's only 4 months bless her, everything is new,

She won't be used to traffic, other dogs will get her totally excited, most puppies go crazy at meeting their own kind, especially if there are no adult dogs to bond with at home, most working GSD's will be more vocal with a higher drive, and some more highly strung........they can be much harder work to handle.

Get going with clicker or whistle training immediately, play fun training games, building up commands slowly with lots of praise, I only use treats to back up that a command is what I wanted, over a period of time, lots of praise is enough, treats are no longer used.........treats will not stop excitement, fear or prey drive, they do not counteract behaviour a whistle will tell your dog what you want it is far better.

So I would strongly suggest you find a training class or a gun dog class where whistles are the norm. Highly strung dogs need focus.

At this age she should only be having 2 x 20 min walks, you need to protect the correct growth of her limbs........the rest of the time she should be playing with you, bonding closely and fun training..........don't push too hard too soon, they are all different, she has a lot to cope with right now.

I carry my pups around from the minute I get them to help with socialising, she is obviously behind.... so treat her like a new pup still....keep your voice upbeat and allow her only to mix with dogs who are friendly, pups should run free at this age......but if there are unfriendly dogs around.....use a long training rope, one bad experience she may never recover from, so keep her safe and use (once again) a whistle for her attention, not a treat, she'll just eat it and carry on with her behaviour...........

Good luck.

20 minutes doesn't seem like a very long amount of time? I think she'd be bouncing off the walls if that is all she got.  I should clarify that if I take her out for that amount of time we aren't power walking or running, we take it slowly.  I am a long distance walker and occasional runner but she wont be joining me until she's old enough.

I think seeing on lead dogs by surprise makes her a lot worse.  We live in a busy area and the pavements are really narrow and on one side of the road, so its really hard to get out of the way or make space, more so if we get caught seeing a dog around a corner or one comes up behind us.  Their was a barking snarling Border collie come up behind us today and she understandably freaked out, unfortunately I can't account for idiots and there are tons of them around here.

I wanted a dog from working lines as I was told they had solid temperaments and no fear.

Did you buy pup as a pet or a guard dog?  At 16 weeks she is still a baby, so please don't expect her to be the fearless adult she will eventually become, she certainly will not offer you protection for quite some while yet. She needs to be taught all about the big wide world so that she accepts traffic and vacuums as a part of life. Please treat her like the puppy that she is, train her well and gently, as she will grow up willing to lay her life down for you as long as she has respect for you and respect needs to be earned.
Try and find a class for GSDs with people that know the breed, but please no harsh training or choke collars. If they teach these methods just walk away. The GSD is very sensitive and easy to train as long as it is done correctly. You do not need to strangle them or shout and force them to do something as they respond better to treats or clicker training. They just want to please you, not be frightened of you.
The GSD tends to be a one person dog and will be your best friend, their eyes always following you so they know you are safe.

Enjoy having a puppy in this wonderful breed and don't expect too much too soon, and how she turns out is all down to you and how you treat her now.

Re the walking. The GSD is known for hip problems even with good breeding, so stick to the very little lead walking regime. If she is bouncing off the walls then play with her as the GSD needs mental stimulation more than exercise at this age. Don't try to make her tired with lots of walks as this will cause you problems later in life with her hips, but she will need to use her intelligence all through her life. A bored GSD is a naughty GSD. Make her think, hide things and get her to find them, or work out how to get kibble out of a puzzle etc.

Did you get any books on the GSD before bringing her home? if not I suggest you get a couple and read all you can about your dog and her needs.

Good Luck and enjoy - you are very lucky to have her.


20 minutes doesn't seem like a very long amount of time? I think she'd be bouncing off the walls if that is all she got

You must think about her physical development, too much walking even at a snails pace can damage not the hip construction, but the growth plates in the legs. She needs more mental exercise than physical exercise. It is a fallacy that breeds like GSDs & working collies need a lot of walking exercise, they don't at 16 weeks she will be getting a lot of exercise at home.

She needs to see things.that are new from a safe distance & rewarded.when she doesn't react, one reason for carrying young puppies around is so that see & hear things like cars, prams, bicycles etc from the safety of your arms & learn that they will not hurt her. She's obviously too big to be carried around, but sitting on a bench some way from the road & rewarding for non reaction & focusing on you is a start.

I think you are expecting a lot from a very young dog, if she's feeling fine with dogs.off lead then she is definitely not aggressive or fear aggressive

I have to suggest that actually it's equally important for a show dog to have a solid temperament!!!  And who needs a pet who could go to fear biting.

You obviously have had little contact with poorly bred successful show dogs or pet dogs. Of course ALL dogs should have good temperaments, however there are types of GSDs that are successful in the Show ring that have terrible temperaments & many pet bred dogs are none too good. It is not possible to be successful in the "sport"(VPG/IOP)with a dog with a dodgy temperament & the same goes for GSDs that work stock. So breeders of "working" GSDs breed for correct character/temperament.

BTW when I write working GSDs I do not  mean longcoats that do competitive Obedience.

> 20 minutes doesn't seem like a very long amount of time? I think she'd be bouncing off the walls if that is all she got.

That's where the mental stimulation comes in, working her brain will tire her more than working her legs. Do a few short training sessions threw out the day, hide toys/treats for her, interactive dog toys ect. If she isn't working her brain enough she can get board and frustrated. You may find as she grows She could end up being a dog that needs more mental stimulation or a job to do.

I would suspect that she is a little not confident, which may not necessarily go against solid temperament. It maybe that she needs time and correct approach to develop that temperament. I would ease off on "socialising" her - not in the sense of keeping her in, but in the sense of introducing her to things more gradually.

For example with both of my pups who lived in countryside kennels until they were 4 months old (when they came to live with me in town), for a good month I carried them past traffic until we got to the park. I did that not because they showed fear of traffic, but to prevent that fear from occurring. I knew they hadn't seen much traffic before, and I knew they would feel more confident and secure in my arms, so the way forward was clear. Once I was sure that they got used to the noises and movement of cars, I let them down. I could do that because my dogs are small; with larger puppy a gradual approach could be to start with very quiet streets where cars drive slowly, with lots of treats and calm moments to focus on the owner to help the pup's confidence.

And the same gradual approach should be applied to other things that set her off. The idea is to prevent her loosing her confidence and reacting; because if you don't, her reaction will quickly become a habit - which then will be much much more difficult to "unlearn".

> You obviously have had little contact with poorly bred successful show dogs or pet dogs.

You know NOTHING about me and my life/experience within the dog-world even if that didn't include direct knowledge of the GSD.  To suggest this is really rather ill-informed.

Please don't be too down about your pup's behaviour, it's really not uncommon in GSD's, when I had my first bitch she came from a fairly poor start and used to hide behind the sofa when anyone came into the house, she also didn't like strangers to touch her when out on walks. I actually had to stop one man from forcing her to allow him to stroke her and he told me that she would always be nervous and what a bad sort of GSD she was!  She went on to be the most wonderful girl, soft as butter with children and any other animals, first to the front door to meet and greet although she also barked, she needed time and consistant firm gentle handling. I went to several training groups without her so as to assess which methods I thought would suit both of us, she was very noisy and unresponsive at first but everyone was very positive and helpful. I would agree with others about the amount of exercise, mental work is just as important and does no damage to growing limbs, she will grow into the dog you want with time and patience.

With a nervous puppy, it can be extremely hard to get the socialisation right - so easy to have a bad experience when you do everything right, easy to undersocialise them, easy to overwhelm them.  You've done nothing wrong.  My younger collie was similar, particularly with traffic and it took a long time to get her over that issue.

Good breeding also is no guarantee - it's helpful but sometimes, through genetic flukery or some other influence, the best bred pup can turn out nervous.

The important thing now is not to push her too far - learn about body language, particularly stress signals (lip licking etc) so you can recognise when she's getting worried and you can remove her from the situation, and use positive reinforcement all the way.  Get to grips with counterconditioning and desensitisation, they are now your best friends!

Are you on facebook?  If you are, get yourself on the Fearful Dogs group or the Reactive Dogs group.  Both are excellent resources.  FD will want you to pay to watch a webinar to join (it's a measure against the endless influx or dominance or punishment fans and an intro into the methods used there), but it is a public group so if you don't want to do that, you can still read all the discussions.

I've found that training and playing find the treat type of games with puppies is a very good way of forgeing a strong bond with them. You will then find that your dog will look to you more in circumstances where they are lacking confidence rather then trying to face things out on their own

Facebook Replies:

Victoria Miranda Strawbridge-Clapp says: I guess with a 16week old pup a lot of these experiences are new and need to be introduced slowly. My rottie pups were scared of traffic when they first started going out but the more socialisation and more things they experience the better they got. Find a good dog trainer/puppy class and persevere, you need to address these things now whilst the pup is young!

Jo Cartwright says: I have a 16 week old GSD right now so I can empathise with you. Has anyone discussed the fear stages that shepherds and a lot of other breeds go through as they develop? It's vitally important that you start to work with her right now or she will never learn confidence. Her behaviour is fear based. Have you considered seeing a reputable dog trainer on a one to one basis? Shepherds are naturally wary of strangers and are very family orientated, they look to you to protect and make them feel secure as they grow and develop. Forcing her to get in the car, allowing people to approach her, exposing her constantly to traffic are all going to flood her, making her issues worse. It takes a lot of time and patience, it also sounds like puppy classes were no good for her and a good trainer should have advised you of this. Have you spoken with the breeder? They should also be supporting you.

Tracy Louise Davies says: Have you ever read Joyce Strangers books? Her working type GSD Chita sounds similar.

Jean Mcginlay says:  Have you been in touch with the breeder?

I am not sure, but I wonder if we have lost the OP - I hope not

poster
Both are working dogs.

HP
Do they mean the dogs are deployed in some kind of working role or do they mean working lines?

poster
The instructor suggested some things to get her focus back on me but she was too frenzied.

HP
'frenzied' might simply be that the dog has high working drives which are not being channeled into the right drive activity expression activity areas for age.

I suggest you find the nearest Schutzhund club, go there one sunday and look for a gsd owner/person, let them look at your pup and make comments on it!
.

To the OP
Have a read of this:
http://www.germanshepherdguide.com/temperament.html
It's long but will give you more insight into the breed.
I'd recommend you enrol in one of the GSD obedience clubs as they would be more helpful to you and I agree about less physical and more mental exercise for her age.

I have never owned a GSD but I have had several dogs over the years (usually rescues) who have been terrified of traffic and other dogs.  They do all get over it in my experience with patience.

My wire fox terrier is the most difficult I have ever owned as she is terribly hyper in all she does which makes training difficult.  However we have persevered.  At first she only had to spot another dog in the distance and would start the most dread caterwauling you have ever heard,  so I sometimes just turned around and walked the the other way although as you say sometimes they would appear from around the corner (we have horses too  up and down our road) so not much I could do. However now she is nearly two years old things are much improved although I do keep her on a lead in the field if I see other dogs as she will still want to run up to them and bark.  Also much better on the lead now and I have found that carrying a ball in her mouth which she adores to play with does help.  She goes to training classes and is really quite bright (got her bronze award) but because she is soo exuberant she is her own worst enemy.

I think you have to persevere and realise that no dog is perfect.  I am sure things will improve.  Good luck to you both.

I am not sure if your age  has an effect on how you cope with puppies or if you just forget how hard work they are!

It is 7 years since my last pup, and I keep thinking how hard work my latest pup is. But at 4 months old I would not want her to act like a middle-aged dog, plus I tell her off or say something and realise I use the exact phrase years ago.

Betty the pup may be wearing me out (even though she sleeps overnight) but she has certainly livened up my older dogs! Even though I have only had her a month I know I could never part with her

> is 7 years since my last pup, and I keep thinking how hard work my latest pup is

Isn't it easy to have selective memory. 

With my last Bearded Collie I said to my vet, oh she's such hard work.  I didn't have all these problems with Myfanwy. 

He cracked up laughing at me.  And said oh yes you did have exactly the same problems.  I must have forgiven her all when she grew into a lovely obedient adult!

I have a 16 week old GSD from working lines.  I wanted a dog from working lines as I was told they had solid temperaments and no fear.

Even lions have fear.

Plenty of 'Good Advice' for you on here so never give up, it will all be worth it in the end 'Good Luck' with it all. Cheers.

Only a stupid Animal has no fear, a bright one will be wary until it has established what is safe.

Only a stupid Animal has no fear, a bright one will be wary until it has established what is safe.

Well said, totally agree.