I'm planning on putting endorsements on our first litter this year...

Looking at the various options, I'm definitely going to put the "progeny not eligible for registration" endorsement on, but what is the "not eligible for issue of an export pedigree" endorsement about?

What if someone moves abroad in the future with their dog?  What if the puppy is being sold abroad and will need to be immediately registered in a foreign KC? 

Does everyone put both these on, or do some people just put "progeny not eligible" on?

Thanks!

Always use both. The  "not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree" only means that the dog cannot be registered with a KC abroad hence it stops the dog being sold abroad unless it is as a pure pet. It's as easy to lift as the no breeding endorsement.

If someone was going to be smart about it, I'm pretty sure you could "sell" the dog abroad, register it with the foreign kennel club, breed it and register the puppies abroad and then "import" a puppy into the UK. I know for registering a dog with the UK kennel club, I think you only need a UK address, so I imagine a dog still living abroad could be transferred onto a UK registration despite never actually setting foot in the country.

I know the last part of this as someone I know fell out with their countries breed club (who are in charge of breed registration) refused to register her dogs because of a fall out, so there was talk of her registering them in a friends UK address as a way round breeding her foreign dog (fully registered but club refused to register any progeny)

If someone was going to be smart about it, I'm pretty sure you could "sell" the dog abroad, register it with the foreign kennel club, breed it and register the puppies abroad and then "import" a puppy into the UK.

Not if the dog was endorsed not for export, as you could not register it abroad without the official export pedigree.

Sorry goldmali, that's what I meant when answering.... The part about not putting on the export endorsement could result in the above scenario.... I think its too late for me to edit that bit in now

Ah, I've been assuming that if a dog is exported, any endorsements one KC had on the registration are automatically transferred to the next KC - is that not the case?  Do the endorsements not carry across between countries?

Also:  If a pup is being sold abroad, you shouldn't put the "not for export" endorsement on, right?  Because the new owner will need an export certificate etc to register the pup in their KC?

Breeding Endorsements are only vaild in UK hence need to also use ineligible for export pedigree. This does not stop the dog being taken overseas but it prevents the dog being registered in the country to which it was exported. if your selling overseas for competition then the export pedigree endorsement needs lifting prior to issue of export pedigree which is issued in new owners name / address

Hmm, ok this is complicated!!  I need to phone the KC, methinks!

It's simple it means in the first instance puppies cannot be registered from the endorsed dog and in the second they can't be registered overseas, and therefore compete or their offspring registered there (but makes no odds to a pet dog).

In both instances it's a simple thing to remove one or other or both the endorsements if appropriate, at any time.

Don't forget you need contracts in place to fully explain any endorsements to new owners too

I just apply both endorsements to all pups at point of registration. When I was sending a pup to Canada once the pup was finally selected I removed bith endorsements and applied for export pedigree giving details of new owners. All very simple, a simple letter to request removal of endorsements and comp,sets from requesting export pedigree with cheque to cover cost of pedigree ( endorsements removed free of charge ) Took just over a week to complete. No hassle at all

Well, what's being said is that anyone selling a puppy abroad, to a competition home (so allowed to be exported with export certificate), can't put a "progeny not eligible for registration" endorsement on (and see it upheld when the puppy is imported to the foreign KC)?

The thing is that most foreign KCs do not have endorsements, hence cannot uphold our ones. Once the dog is registered abroad, it's under their rules.

Yes this is correct, once registered with another kennel club then litters can be registered whether the breeder agrees to it or not.

but of course you would still have to remove the export endorsement before this could happen as they can't register their dog or progeny without export certificate.

...but if they're a competition home, presumably you'd be wanting them to get an export certificate, so they could compete with their dog and prove its breeding potential/worth...?

Does anyone know if the reverse is true?  If you buy a puppy abroad with endorsements (presuming it's a KC which allows endorsements), and import it to the UK, will the UK KC uphold those endorsements from abroad or remove them when registered in the UK?

FULLY ENDORSE THEM!!!    Even if the not for showing option is really not needed.    I made what turned out to be a HUGE mistake buy selling two puppies to a fellow-breeder, with no endorsements on them although I did have a clause in the sale contract of the male which gave me the option to take one stud from the male.   All was fine until she came up with 'a problem' from the first litter she had from the male.   Went hysterical, and the next I heard was she'd sold them to another breeder out in Holland.   I have no prior warning of this and clearly had there been a 'not for export' endorsement chances are even if they were sold abroad, they couldn't be registered with the foreign Kennel Club making their appeal zero to another overseas breeder.   As it was, both were used for breeding - the bitch (who was top puppy in her breed that year, with 1 CC) having been put in whelp FIVE TIMES.    All to different sires and never apparently producing anything that breeder wanted.   In fact it got back to me that she was 'crap'.   Yes, she was a totally different type to what this breeder was producing, but she certainly was NOT crap.    I eventually persuaded her to get her into a pet home for her remaining days.   She was clearly put in whelp every year, if not every season.   Not all her litters were large, but each was a pregnancy!   I was heartbroken.   As for the stud option - he'd gone abroad so getting to him with the bitch I wanted to use him on, wasn't viable.

If you want to protect these puppies, fully endorse them.   It won't stop any of them going abroad however, but it will prevent them from being registered abroad, with the official Kennel Club of the country they move to.

I have no idea what others do, but Not for Export, and Not for Breeding (which again can't be stopped by an endorsement, but the progeny can't be officially registered) - DEFINITELY.   Even if you lift the endorsement at some point down the road.

> I'm pretty sure you could "sell" the dog abroad, register it with the foreign kennel club

Without an Export Pedigree, which means no Not for Export endorsement would have to be the situation, the dog couldn't be registered with the foreign Kennel Club.   It won't stop the dog going abroad however.

"progeny not eligible for registration" endorsement on (and see it upheld when the puppy is imported to the foreign KC)?"
There is no reciprocal agreemenet between Kennel Clubs - heck there's nothing reciprocal re Kennel Names between Kennel Clubs!!  As I discovered when coming back to the UK from Canada, I was unable to use our Canadian Kennel affix here.   It had been given to another breeder in another breed in the UK!

I may be wrong about the Not for Showing/exhibition endorsement now.   Was the case when I was active in the UK however.   I'll have to check with the KC website.

Add - seems there are only 2 endorsements that can be used now.   USE THEM BOTH!!!   They can always be lifted by you, if you agree, at a later date.    And endorsed dogs, with an overseas Kennel Club, coming into the UK most probably cannot be lifted other than by the breeder in the country of registration.   Again I've not checked.   Our imports/re-imports (Canada back to the UK) were not endorsed with the CKC.

There is no " Not for exhibition " endorsement

MamaBas, some of my puppy buyers live abroad.  They are purchasing a puppy for competition.  The first thing they are going to want to do, with their 8wk old competition prospect, is register/import the puppy to their own country.

> Even if the not for showing option is really not needed.

They removed that option (not to be shown) about 20 years ago, there is only progeny not for registration and not eligible for Export pedigree.

> They removed that option (not to be shown) about 20 years ago,

Heavens, how time flies, when you are not enjoying yourself.   I have to admit to not really taking much notice re that particular endorsement (not relevant) and we did have our last litter in 1997

> They are purchasing a puppy for competition.  The first thing they are going to want to do, with their 8wk old competition prospect, is register/import the puppy to their own country.

This being the case, so there's no come-back, I think I'd be holding onto the puppy for a bit longer so you have more ideal about it's 'show potential'    Clearly you can't put a 'not for export endorsement' on any puppy that is intended to be shown etc.   It will have to have an Export Pedigree to go with it.    With those youngsters we imported into Canada from the UK, when we lived out there,  knowing who we were buying from, and going by bloodlines, any extras like being good enough to show when old enough was a bonus.   And we didn't import our foundation bitch before she was 5 months, and the male, 7 months, giving us and their breeders more time to see if their early promise was holding up.   I also didn't want to subject a younger puppy to a flight across the Atlantic until they were that bit older.

As for the 'not for breeding endorsement', as (and check) this endorsement, which wouldn't preclude an Export Pedigree being available, You would have to trust the new owners only to breed if the dog is good enough?   I don't think I'd bother to put any endorsements on a puppy going abroad but I'd also not sell overseas unless I knew and trusted the people.

As your selling to competitive homes you will not be able to apply endorsements.
Selling overseas requires significant trust and familiarity with purchasers for this reason. This is why many breeders will not sell overseas. Why not check the breeding requirements of your own breed in the export country - Many require health test results and show / field qualifications prior to any animal being used to breed registered pups.

Selling overseas requires significant trust and familiarity with purchasers for this reason. This is why many breeders will not sell overseas.

Indeed. The issue if the dog ever has to be rehomed can be a huge one for a start. My own rule is no export unless I know the people already, or they come recommended via somebody I REALLY trust.

In my first litter of kittens 27 years ago, I sold one to a friend abroad. Somebody I had known a long time. A year later she had a second kitten off me. And about a year after that both got rehomed to different owners, and I never knew what happened to them. So I am very wary now.

As I live on an island 9 miles by 5, probably quite a lot of pups will end up being exported - some to the UK.  Which, to us, is "abroad" - because we don't have the UK KC where I live.  I can put the "progeny can't be registered" endorsement on with our KC, but if the UK KC won't uphold them, then that's a bit pointless.

Just spoke to the (UK) KC, who say that they honour endorsements put on in Ireland and Ireland honour UK KC endorsements and it would work the same with us, so yes, endorsements I put on will be kept on by the UK KC, when a pup is exported to the UK.

> I can put the "progeny can't be registered" endorsement on with our KC, but if the UK KC won't uphold them, then that's a bit pointless.

You had best contact the Kennel club (mainland UK) I strongly suspect that endorsements maybe reciprocal in that case, it's not like abroad, abroad, the Islands KC's are probably more in line that those in Non UK countries, due to historical ties.

Edited:

Pleased to see the IKC still honour them in spite of moving to FCI affiliation.

I know when I registered my dogs to show in Ireland  in 2004, I had to send copies of the original registrations and they included the same endorsements, (no export pedigree was required as no change of address).

Ah well exports between Ireland to UK ( and vice versa ) is the only exception despite the fact the IKC is affiliated to FCI :)

I guess I will put both endorsements on and then let new owners attempt to register pups in UK.  If they can't, I can lift that endorsement for them?!  ARG. 

I just don't want to look silly if I lecture new owners about the endorsements and point them out and discuss them etc etc - and then they turn out to be removed by the UK KC...

I'll also ask our KC here, as they must frequently see pups exported to UK and would know...

Confusingly, we also still have "can't be shown or entered in competition" or whatever endorsement here, as well - and we even have "can't add an affix" endorsement for an extra fee(?!).  Obviously those wouldn't be upheld by UK KC!

The UK kennel club will register ok with the endorsement for dog from Ireland
At one time the not eligible for exhibition and not eligible for addition of affix were options in UK also but abolished more than 20 years ago now :)

> The UK kennel club will register ok with the endorsement for dog from Ireland

I think the Op is more concerned about our Mainland UK kennel club honou4ring the endorsements placed by the Kennel clubs of the Chanel Islands, other than allowing participation in shows and trials.

I use both and I apply them to the whole litter, including the puppies that stay with me. The contract of sale that I use is very clear that the endorsements will be lifted subject to satisfactory health test results.

Tis both, Brainless - they have to be able to register them with UK KC and then to be able to compete with them there :) 

I'm going to ask our KC about it too, I need to phone the registrar next week anyway, so will ask her then.