I had a gorgeous and healthy litter of 7 puppies. All have now had their first injection and are in their new homes. Lovely. All of the new owners are constantly updating me, sending me photos and updates. It's really nice. However, one of the new owners (who I have on social media) has been tagged in a photo of her puppy with two adult dogs (not sure what breed-medium sized) that belong to her friend who was 'dog sitting' today. I was so angry. I have sent her a message but know that at some point I will have to give up. I don't think she knows that she is doing anything wrong (stupid I know, especially with the amount of info I have given her and all new owners on how imperative it is that the dog does not come into contact with others until fully vaccinated). Scared for the health and well-being of my pup, and for potential blame that may come my way if said pup were to catch something.

Any thoughts? How to deal with this? This girl is a family friend, visited the puppy weekly from 4 weeks old and made all of the right noises- is this just silly behaviour? Everything else they seem to be doing really well.

Well I don't think they are doing anything wrong if the other dogs are healthy, (no known outbreak in the area) what about those pups who go to a home with an existing dog???

Also surely the pups mixed with your own dogs, who went out and about, as you did?

If it was in the garden or in the home of someone she knows it wouldn't bother me either. Most people vaccinate their dogs and if those are vaccinated then even less to worry about.
I've always taken mine out after the first one and carried before that.

I wouldn't worry either . I now many who don't vaccinate at all and build up immunity by exposure also it's likely that some immunity is still there from mums antibodies as well as first vaccines .

I wouldn't have a problem with it. If they know the dogs they will know if they are in good health or ill so the risk would be no greater than the owner leaving the home and coming back unless of course the owners completely disinfects themselves or never leaves the house or walks their other dogs if they have any untill the puppy is fully vaccinated.
Also its good for the pup to be socialising with a couple of safe adults rather than being shut away from the world untill 12-14 weeks old.

Again I can't see what the issue is here. The likely hood of the pup catching anything is very remote. Do you not advise your puppy owners to get their pups out and about as soon as possible (always carried). My 2 pups that I kept from last year's litter were socialised a lot at a National Trust place where there were loads of dogs. It's just a case of being sensible. I have friends in my breed who don't vaccinate at all, all her dogs are healthy.

Absolutely don't worry..... I tell my puppy buyers to mix with friends dogs before vaccination..... They will still have antibodies and it's very low exposure if any.

Well thank you so much everyone you have put my mind at rest slightly. I think I'm just being over protective (first litter, struggling to let go).
There was an out break of Parvo last year, with vaccinated dogs also becoming affected. I do take mine out of course but since the puppies have been born I have tried to walk in quieter areas and have had minimal contact with other dogs.

Personally I don't like taking unvaccinated puppies out in the real world, even carrying them, as at some point they'll need to do their business... And I'd prefer that to be on the floor not in my arms! Just a personal view.

Think I need to let it go, just being overprotective. I don't know these dogs that she went to stay with but to be fair one of them is a 14 week old puppy who has gone to live with an older dog, so you can only assume that the older one who is out and about walking is fit and healthy.

Thanks again for your replies.

A puppy that has had its first vaccination, is perfectly OK to mix with other dogs, as long as they are fully vaccinated. A puppy with first vac can go to other people's gardens if they have dogs as long as the older dogs are fully vaccinated. And don't forget, the puppy will still have immunity from its mother too. I wouldn't be overly worried

I can understand why you are being overly jittery if you had a parvo outbreak in your area last year, I would also be dishing out extra precautions, parvo is a nasty virus, as everyone has said all should be well though, normally not an issue, (hopefully your message was not to curt. ) If something happened and you hadn't said something you would be upset with yourself, but hopefully the chances are extremely slim.

Sure everything will be fine.........it is hard letting our pups go, but we need to and then stay a friend to their owners to keep our pups  in our lives so tread carefully.

Facebook Replies:

Pam Tait says: I don't understand what the problem is ?

Lisa Stewart Phillips says: Not taking them out before 14 wks is daft. They NEED to have as many positive new experiences as possible before the socialisation window shuts at between 14-16 wks. More dogs are surrendered to rescues due to behavioural issues caused by lack of or inappropriate socialisation in the critical period every year than die of diseases covered by immunisations.

Paula Goodswen says: I encourage my puppy owners to socialise pups with as many of their families and friends vaccinated, nice natured dogs as they can, letting her friend puppy sit would not be an issue for me x

Susie Lain says: The way I understand it is puppies that are not fully vaccinated are ok to meet fully vaccinated dogs on private property where you know there have been no unvaccinated dogs. So I can see no problem

Sharon Hulme says: I wAs told by my vet if you take your pup out, or if another dog visits your pup aslong as they were up to date with vaccinations it should be fine x

Ruth Davison says: If the adult dogs are vaccinated then there is zero risk to the pup. Keeping them away from other dogs would be a bigger risk for their longterm wellbeing.

Sarah Louise Berwick says: So instead of leaving the pup home alone she's got someone round to sit with her meanwhile socialising her with other dogs?? Win win situation really!

Paula Goody says: It's absolutely fine for unvaccinated pups to come into contact with other dogs, if fully vaccinated. I would suggest checking out whether they are vaccinated before jumping to conclusions. I let my pup meet as many vaccinated older dogs as possible, as early on as possible, in order to socialise him.

Tracy Louise Davies says: I think you are panicking for nothing. As long as the other dogs are healthy then there will be no problem

Jo Cartwright says: So if this girl had other dogs and the pup was going to join them as part of the family, would this be wrong too? Do you discriminate against owners who already own dogs so your pups only go to homes where they are solo animals? Utterly ridiculous. They are not YOUR pups any more, they have new families now who you can only hope will do the right thing by them and I don't see any problems at all with this girl. She sounds very responsible. Presumably you vetted each potential owner before considering them as forever homes? I have a 14 week old pup and he lives alongside my 11 yr old dog and he has also met many dogs from the age of 8 weeks old which is why he is now very comfortable around other dogs and will continue to be because I insist that he is well socialised in all aspects of every day life.

Karen Ball says: I can understand it must be hard to let go of pups and that every effort must be made to find the right homes for them. But the pup isnt yours anymore, you sold it to its new owner. If you took every precaution to vet them you can only hope that they do the right thing by the pup for the rest of its life. TBH dont think she is doing anything wrong. Leaving it alone for long periods would not be good but she isnt doing that, she is socialising him/her at this important time in its life

Tara Neely says: Surely if other a dogs are vaccinated then there is no problem???? I would ENCOURAGE pup owners to socialise puppy with adult , vaccinated dogs. Can't see what the problem is xxx

Jan Bardey says: As long as the other dogs are healthy and fully vaccinated there is no problem. In fact it's beneficial for a pup to carry on socialising with adult dogs so this is a lucky puppy with a sensible owner

Facebook Post:

Neil Fishburn says: This seems to be an over protective first time breeder who hasn't done their research, of course pups can meet other older vaccinated dogs as soon as they come home, my Jess came from a breeder who had a couple of other pet dogs, she was taught to go out into our garden to toilet from day one none of this puppy pad going in the house rubbish. Once you have sold a pup you have sold it and have to hope you have picked the correct homes for the puppies but decisions such as socialising is now to be made by the owner who isn't the breeder any more.  When my sister got a JRT puppy within days she came to visit me and Jess, who is a vaccinated Labrador and since this first meeting they are unseperatable whenever they meet in fact poppy has a better relationship with Jess than she does with any other dog including my sisters older dog as they will play where poppy does t often do play with other dogs.

Yes it was a very, very polite message as would hate to sever any ties with new owners, and as I said they are family friends. My issue is that I didnt know if these dogs were fully vaccinated. I'd assume yes but I think my problem is loosing control of the pups, which I know is a fact of breeding just easier said than done. We have sorted it out now thanks to the posts on here, she hadn't actually asked if the dogs were vaccinated, but has now and they are so she's going to keep interacting with them which I now see is positive. Thank you.

Kathryno it is to your credit that you care enough about your puppies to ask for peoples opinions and advice on this subject. Sometimes when we are worried about something, we can not see-the-wood-for-the-tree's and it helps so much when people take the time to talk us through it. Hopefully, that worry has now gone and you can relax a little

Indeed Admin, in fact me and this girl have actually just arranged a dog walk with the whole litter (eek). No bad feelings at all, in fact most of the new owners have said to me that they like the fact they have bought from someone who is so involved as if there's a problem (touch wood), they know I'll be there to ask about it.

I've not read through all of this BUT I would just say when we had unvaccinated puppies around, we restricted where we exercised our fully boostered/healthy adults until the puppies went home or had their first vaccination at arouind 10 weeks at least.   There 'should' be no reason to be worried but it only takes one dog to WALK IN infection.    I know I'm paranoid, but again why risk this happening for the sake of a few weeks.   Provided the breeding was one that meant the breeder was as concerned about temperament as conformation, not meeting other dogs until fully vaccinated shouldn't make any significant difference.   Our lot were reared where we lived - out in the sticks/boonies - and as we had no kids coming and going either, didn't see many strangers, humans or canine.  But we had no traumatised hounds as a result.   Yes, some were happier at home in terms of the show ring, but most probably they'd have been like that regardless of their early days.   And at least they were healthy!

As a general rule, our puppies weren't exposed to any other dogs until fully vaccinated.

Add -   "And don't forget, the puppy will still have immunity from its mother too"    If the puppy still had natural immunity, the vaccination most probably wouldn't have taken.  Natural immunity starts to drop from around 5 weeks until by around 8+ weeks, it's usually safe to start external vaccination with a good chance it will take.   The stage from 5 week to when external vaccination can be started, is the time puppies are most at risk.

Mamabas, you've hit the nail on the head for me.

Personally, I wouldn't let an unvaccinated puppy into contact with any adult dog (that isn't a resident) - just personal preference. I appreciate all of your views that the puppy isn't facing any risk, but it's something I wouldn't risk.

The question was more how to deal with it when I feel a new owner is doing wrong by a puppy I've bred? The answer seems to be to forget about it.

Thank you all.

Ok, related question I think. Our new arrival received a vaccination where he was with his original home. Our vet has recommended he starts from scratch(they don't carry the same make of vaccine) so a month after the original injection he had the first of the new (this would be a week ago today). The second is booked for next Wednesday. So to cut to the chase, do you think it would be ok to take him out now, after the second injection or wait the full fortnight after it which takes us to Jan 14th ish. Obviously he has the girls to interact with and puppy class starts on the 15th.

RozzieRetriever, I would not take a pup with incomplete vaccinations out on public grass or meeting dogs I did not know.

You can still socialise him by carrying him and driving him places, introduce him to noises, people and busy places.

In your home he can socialise with dogs you know and resident dogs and then on the 15th he'll start his puppy classes and be on his way.............

Public grass areas are the worst place he can go without full vaccinations, so keep him away for now.

Provided the breeding was one that meant the breeder was as concerned about temperament as conformation, not meeting other dogs until fully vaccinated shouldn't make any significant difference.  

Breed related. You cannot compare apples and pears, Hounds and  breeds that are naturally flighty. If I left mine at home until fully vaccinated, I'd have major problems indeed. My pups go out and about (on the ground as well) the day after their first vaccination at 8 weeks. They are far more likely to die due to being PTS for behavioural problems, than from viruses.

> So to cut to the chase, do you think it would be ok to take him out now, after the second injection or wait the full fortnight after it which takes us to Jan 14th ish.

You have to know my answer would be wait.  And it's such a pity your vet started over again with the vaccination - THIS is why we held onto our puppies to 10 weeks and then sent them home with strict instructions to get them to the new owner's vet for a health check/vaccinations to begin, within 48 hours.   NOT taking them anywhere off their property, or with other non-household dogs at all.   Occasionally we'd let our pups go home at just over 8 weeks to people we knew and who were experienced, but with strict instructions re vaccination! 

As said, why take the risk.

And Carrington - I'm with you.

To OP.   You can only advise your new puppy owner.   Beyond that, it's up to them.   Just hope they don't come to you later on saying the puppy went down with something!!!  

Also re socialising, there's nothing to stop people taking their puppies out PROVIDED they don't put them on the ground, surely.

You've both confirmed my instincts, many thanks for replying.

there's nothing to stop people taking their puppies out PROVIDED they don't put them on the ground, surely.

Precisely - always taken my unvaccinated pups out and about on walks with family dogs aswell, in a baby carrier, they love it....even took my brothers GSD pups out in them - had the back ache to prove it.

RozzieRetriever, I would wait. It's only a few weeks. That's just my opinion but obviously others have different ones.

RE socialising - my dog's (mum of the litter) first walk was at 15 weeks once fully vaccinated, and she has a temperament to die for. Not only is she amazing with other dogs, including others coming into the house and stealing her toys and food. She is fantastic with babies and children. We have a 9 month old baby come to visit each weekend and this is the first baby that Frankie has ever met, and she sits there patiently while he pulls her ears/tail/ anything he can grab. She is perfect out on walks, never too abrasive with humans but certainly not shy and timid either. In fact, out of every dog that I know (friends and family) she is by far the most well rounded of them all.

Now tell me that dogs who aren't socialised before their vaccinations finish are bound to end up in rescues.

I'm sure the pup will be fine. I do have photo evidence just in case it isn't as have read horror stories on CD of new owners coming back to the breeders for all sorts of problems.

Now tell me that dogs who aren't socialised before their vaccinations finish are bound to end up in rescues.

It does depend on breeds and lines though Kathryno, Goldmali has Malinois's, so different to most of our breeds. GSD's are pussycats compared to their high drive both energy and prey. (I personally would not have them on the ground for early socialising, but seems no harm has come to them, it is a small risk but if you're the unlucky one IMO it isn't worth it).......... but some breeds or just individual pups are already raring to go at 5 weeks and developing their life skills, with strong personalities, needing special handling.......all breeds really are not alike, it's why breeders need to really know their breeds.

I encourage my pup,owners to get their pups out - controlled risk. So let them meet as many vaccinated healthy dogs as they can, take them out to low dog traffic areas ( yes I walk mine ) I don't start vaccination until 12 -14 weeks as they have maternal immunity and this prevents vaccine uptake, it is vital pups are socialised long before their vaccines are complete at 18 weeks. If you vaccinate sooner you may feel protected but there is strong chance the vaccine actually hasn't added any immunity anyway and when maternal immunity waits the pup is unprotected.

Facebook Posts:

Patsy Stone says: Puppy's have this thing called an immune system they don't need all that toxic vaccination shite pumped into them!!!!

Gary Birks says: Think you'll find it doesn't matter if the dogs you put with a pup is vaccinated, it's more where the dog as been before your pup comes into contact. Puppy's immune system doesn't stop parvo. Parvo is one of the biggest killers in puppy's & this is transported from any fields or streets where's there as been rats,foxes and other carrying animals. Your vet will tell you that & you will be gobsmacked on how easy parvo spreads, it can kill a fully vaccinated dog if not treated soon as. A puppy will die in weeks, no cure.

Rachel Savage says: Do not panic. All will be well. It is better for dogs to socialise with other dogs early on

> Our new arrival received a vaccination where he was with his original home. Our vet has recommended he starts from scratch(they don't carry the same make of vaccine)

This is why many of us refuse top PART VACCINATE pups before they leave.

> he had the first of the new (this would be a week ago today). The second is booked for next Wednesday.

I would not have the third vaccination at all, he has had two (regardless of manufacturer) and that should be plenty, and I'd not vaccinate again for a year.

It's over vaccinating a young animal that does most potential damage.

If pup is over 12 weeks when it had the second vaccination then there is no need.

It wasn't the breeder who vaccinated, it was the couple who bought him and gave him up. There wouldn't have been an issue if we'd had him direct, but we gave him a home when they decided he wasnt for them.

I'd still not give him a third vaccination, whatever good the vaccines do will be there already from the two (assuming he didn't have the first too young, and then only for those diseases requiring two which is the lepto and Parainfluenza).

If vaccinated after 12 weeks one vaccine will give immunity for the viral  diseases with modified live vaccine components.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

"The vaccine manufacturer Pfizer performed a field study in 1996. Researchers Hoare, DeBouck and Wiseman assessed vaccinated puppies and split them into two groups.

Group A received a single vaccination at 12 weeks

Group B received a first vaccine between 8 to 10 weeks and a second shot at 12 weeks

When titers were measured (titers are a way to measure a dog’s level of immunity), 100% of the puppies vaccinated once at 12 weeks were protected.

But only 94% of the puppies in Group B were protected …

… despite receiving two vaccines as opposed to one.

It would appear that the first vaccine reduced the effectiveness the the second vaccine."

"The Magic Number

It appears that 12 to 16 weeks would be the magic number where vaccines have a nearly 100% chance of working.

And by working, it means that your puppy should only need that one vaccine – for his entire life.

The results are even more amazing with distemper.

Dr Schultz designed a study to mimic an animal shelter environment. He gave unvaccinated, 12 week old puppies just one dose of distemper vaccine … just four hours before the puppies were placed in a room with distemper-infected dogs. Yikes!

But that one vaccine protected every one of those puppies.

Although two and even three doses of vaccine were the original recommendations made in the AAHA Canine Vaccine Guideline back in 20013, the research shows that a series of puppy shots is completely unnecessary.

Puppies vaccinated once at 12 to 16 weeks of age with a high titer vaccine, according to research done by Dr Schultz, have a virtually 100% chance of being protected.

But aren’t the puppies at risk until 12 weeks of age?

Yes it is. But ironically, there’s even greater risk for puppies given a series of shots.

Not only do these puppies receive more vaccines, meaning they’re more likely to suffer from vaccine-induced chronic disease, there’s a little downside to vaccines your vet doesn’t tell you about …

… they suppress your puppy’s immune system. For ten days.

So if you’re vaccinating your puppy at 8 weeks, not only is it not likely to protect him and he’ll need another at 12 and probably again at 16 weeks, but it suppresses his immune system, meaning he’s MORE AT RISK for infectious disease.

So it’s no wonder why data from the Virbac Disease Watchdog shows that 28% of vaccinated puppies still get parvovirus.

So does the series of puppy shots still make sense to you?"

R ozzie retriever if u are concerned I would find a vet that does vacci check it should only cost 40 pounds including consult  and get pup titre tested  before having anymore vaccines.this is why I don't like my pups being vaccinated before leaving breeder unless breeder  is able to do both which then means pup has to remain with the breeder longer . It leads to too many vaccinations imo as you have found .  Mothers immunity has been shown to be still present up to about 16 weeks although will be waning from about 12.  this  is broadly why vets do a series of vaccinations hoping if the first doesn't work becuase of mothers immunity the second will.its a bit like a dart board though enough arrows amd one will stick . There are many pups walking around who have had vaccinations and still arnt covered as the vaccines were done too early or some where the pup is a life long non responder. With mothers immunity present  best way to build immunity would be through limited socialisation imo

Thank you all for your advice, it seems that there is a wide variety of views on this covering a broad spectrum! We have an appointment on Wednesday so I will raise the issue then. Titre testing certainly wasn't offered as an option.

LOl its an emotive subject rr :) Titre is rarely suggested in fact its often something that vets either don't consider or look at you blankly and say er no .
if you have access to fb join canine health concern although the info may also be on their website and there is file on fb group that lists vets that vacci check and how to get you vet to do it for you. might be useful in the future if not now. The info on there also give you details of the booster schedules which should be 3 yearly for core vaccines

I know they booster every three years as that's what the girls have had. It was just I bit confusing as to the best course of action when the pup has been somewhere else first.

Facebook Reply:

Kimberley Turner says: I think you should stop worrying. You can not dictate how a new owner looks after their dog. The fact the lady has thought about company for her puppy while she had to go out is admirable. I know some people who would have just left the puppy home alone. Being with friendly happy dogs is much better