I have just been browsing on another well-known general puppy/adult sale website and quite frankly am shocked at the number of hounds, no older than 2 years and most not even a year old, advertised for sale/looking for a new home at the moment.    It was to some extent relevant when the economy was bad - people losing their homes/jobs but aren't thing better now?  

Questions -
1.  Why buy into any breed without doing homework first?  
2.  Why don't BREEDER ask what's intended for the puppies they produce - and these aren't mix-bred, but purebred, costing a lot of money originally?
3.  Why don't BREEDERS put a return clause in their Sale Agreement, and if they do, how can this be enforced so these often puppies, don't end up on a website like I'm seeing.   I have on occasion emailed the seller suggesting they go back to the breeder, but whether they do, who knows.

Is it the same in other breeds or is this just my breed and lack of understand exactly what taking one on really means?

I try not to look at theses sites...it makes me too angry!!

In my opinion as a breeder, if your not prepared to take back a puppy you bred, at any age...you should not be breeding. I hate it when I see something & it says the breeder doesn't want it back

Assuming the breeder has actually been informed/given the opportunity. I don't think people sometimes have the guts to tell the breeder the pup is being given up.

Because pups are cute and SOME breeders just want the money..simple

> I don't think people sometimes have the guts to tell the breeder the pup is being given up.

Unfortunately I'm afraid you are right - sometimes for whatever reason, owners are simply too embarrassed to admit defeat, or some other home-crisis.   BUT I try to keep in touch with people who buy my puppies at least through the early stages so I tend to know what's going on.   And happily I've never had any of our puppies end up being rehomed without me being involved.   I suppose a big part of all this is the breeder hasn't bothered to form a relationship with their puppy buyers and that's sad.

A lot of owners as you say, won't admit to failing, but some just don't care and the return clause isn't easily enforceable.

My Saffi had one in her contract and she was still dumped on rescue at 4yrs old - the first the breeder knew of it was when I tracked her down 2 years later, after I took Saffi on from her second home.  She was happy for me to keep her, but both mortified and furious that she'd gone through rescue - even more so that she'd then been bred once rehomed because the rescue didn't spay her.

Of course, most of the problem these days is not with the owners but with the breeders - or I should say, greeders.  Particularly with beagles, I've noticed, round here.  Produced without much care, homed with even less to people who just aren't suitable for the breed.  And of course, that is true of just about all breeds, these days - it's all about the money.

I'd imagin any deasont breeder would be vetting puppy buyers and have returning it in their contracts. Allthough from what I've been told the puppy contracts arnt realy enforceable. Then as others have said alot will depend on if the owner tells the breeder they can't keep it.

Some times people are embarrassed to let the breeder know or have lost contact details for them and some times people want more money for the dog.
Your breed has been popular with puppy farms and people breeding just to sell cute wrinkly puppies. These sort of breeders don't care where the pups go, don't want to know what happens to them and don't want them back. So their owners cant turn to them if they can't keep them.
When there are pups easerly advaible with no proper questions asked they can end up in the wrong homes either with people who want them for the wrong reasons or with people who just haven't done their research into the breeds needs and later find out they can't cope with then.

> Some times people are embarrassed to let the breeder know or have lost contact details for them ...

I'm just wondering if "proper" breeders (not BYBs or puppy farmers) also give their puppy buyers information about, or even an introduction to, the breed club.  While some people who have maybe failed with training or otherwise find they can't keep a pup may be embarrassed to confess to the breeder that they can't keep the pup, they may be less worried about contacting the rescue section of the breed club.

It is worrying that so many of the young dogs offered on these websites are not only not neutered but it's often suggested that they could be bred.

It's why I have always had my pups ear tattooed (and now chipped too) and stressed that this way they are always traceable back to me, and I do give membership applications to breed club.

Of course I also have the return clause in my contract stressing that I will be in a better position tom find the right new home.

The ones who hope to recoup the purchase price you can do nothing about, but in my breed the older pup adult has virtually no resale value, as the breed is so little known.

At the moment we have quite a number of long term owners in the breed who want an adult dog, (but not an unknown quantity as in a commercially/casually bred one coming into rescue).  People quite rightly want to be more sure of the background health status and temperament. 

Problem is there are virtually none of the breeders of old who kept a larger number of dogs and are willing to retire adults to pet homes.  If I were sensible I have several that are not too old (including a 7 year old champion bitch and a three year old with a RCC) that have done their part in my breeding program, and could reduce my numbers, but I can't bring myself to do it, as for me they are family.

My daughter has two rescue Basset's. One thrown out because he lost an eye and one who was taken into care because of being starved.  They are lovely boys. She also has a ex-pack Bloodhound who was not interested in hunting anything !! Too lazy !! (He came from a pack who "Clean boot" hunt no bloodshed ).
They make wonderful pets and get on so well together too.

From the little booklet I just finished writing for our first litter next year:

"We wish you all the very best with your new puppy.  We had lots of fun raising him/her, and now it’s over to you!  But remember…

…we are just on the other end of a phone line or email.  We will not judge you, if you are having difficulties.  And, if you ever need to re-home your dog - no matter what age they are - please get in touch.  We bred these dogs and we are responsible for them, throughout their lives.
"

> "We wish you all the very best with your new puppy.  We had lots of fun raising him/her, and now it’s over to you!  But remember…<br /><br />…we are just on the other end of a phone line or email.  We will not judge you, if you are having difficulties.  And, if you ever need to re-home your dog - no matter what age they are - please get in touch.  We bred these dogs and we are responsible for them, throughout their lives.

Just love this and if I were still breeding ....... I'm still wondering how to persuade owners who have made the decision the youngster has to go, to admit defeat!!  

I guess microchipping by the breeder, assuming the new owner doesn't transfer the details into their name?, would help reconnect breeder and dog? Tattooing?  Might work.

ps.  Re not 'decluttering' - I was the same with all, bar one, we kept from our litters.   Once kept, they stayed to the end of their lives - the one exception was a lad who started challenging his uncle and eventually I had to find a good home for so peace could return to our small pack.   People tend not to keep the numbers they once did so a retired dog needing a fireside home for their final years, doesn't happen quite as often as it used to.

Tattooing is no more successful than microchipping IME - Saffi's tattoo is how I tracked her breeder down.  The only information on the record was the breeder's affix, no-one had updated it since it was originally done and no-one was even aware it existed.  I happened to find it when I gave her a quick checkover the day she came home.

Like all permanent ID it needs someone to check for it, but the tattoo did work as yiu did track the breeder down, just a shame no-one before you did.

True, but only because I was already aware of them and just happened to check for one.  They are still far from well known which is a shame, they could be a very useful form of permanent ID for both dog and ownership of that dog if used more widely.

I understand from the NDTR is that they have informed all the major rescues of the Ear Tattoo scheme, but the info doesn't seem to get in on the ground.

A friend bred a blue and white collie homed with good friends.

He went missing and the owner kept ringing the dogs home no blue and white collie in.

Then my friend gets a phone call from NDTR, Bristol dogs home rang them, as on vet check before rehoming they found an ear tattoo (obviously vet check includes looking in ears). 

My friend the breeder was able to ring the owner and he got his dog back who had been in the dogs home all along.

Their excuse they didn't know he was a border collie as they surely are always Black and white!!!

So no ID scheme is perfect.

I always use both for my won pups, but have had every pup I bred ear tattooed as they keep breeder details for ever, and from this year started chipping (no option from April), I am glad that the breeder will be the first owner on database and will stay on record, from my point of view that was the weakness with the chips.

I still think a visible ID, especially added to their tags for any would be thief to see, gives added security, one would hope at least one would be picked up.

Sadly compulsory chipping isn't going to work without robust enforcement.  After all it is the law that tags are worn, their presence or absence is visible yet nothing is done regarding enforcement, so whose going to know if a dog is chipped and details correct?????.

Currently my dogs don't go off lead, (too much hassle and worry) have two permanent ID's and always have collars and tags.

Compulsory chipping won't work at all until there is compulsory scanning.  There are more than enough reports of pets going missing for years, passing through rescues etc and then chips being found after all that because no-one that should have scanned the dog (or cat) has bothered to before then.

Yep someone I know had their dog back after three years when it was picked up by the dog warden and taken to dogs home.  It had gone missing from a friends when he was on holiday.

Interestingly when he went to vet the dog was found to have two chips, guess what the second chip was put in by dogs home.

so looks like eh was homed, got out again and picked up and this time original chip read.

Compulsory chipping allied to a dog |License had been in force in Northern Ireland, I'd love to see the compliance (or more likely lack of) stats?  Anyone????

This is data for reunification of strays before and after compulsory chipping and licensing http://www.chipmenot.org.uk/news.asp

I saw one for a 5month old ckcs. Owner said didn't have the time with work and a 1yr old .... Gets me so cross! I mean seriously why buy a puppy when you have a 6month old .... I may get shot down but I have 2 boys are they wear me out! Mollydog is far easier than then,  but why do that! Hubby told me to come off before I agreed to buy them all.

> Sadly compulsory chipping isn't going to work without robust enforcement.

In terms of 'robust enforcement' is it going to be mandatory that vets ask their (new) clients whether their pets are chipped, and if not, report them?

> <br />In terms of 'robust enforcement' is it going to be mandatory that vets ask their (new) clients whether their pets are chipped, and if not, report them?

Last I saw its not mandatory for dogs to be scanned, I know there was a campaign going to get vets , highway agency and train company's ect to scan dogs.

My first litter hopefully will be born next year. One thing that I wanted to put in puppy contract is that at any stage of the dog's life, if the new owner can no longer keep it, for whatever reason, they can bring the dog back to me for full refund - I will return the money the owner originally paid for it.

Our breed is vulnerable and not very expensive, and I plan to put the money paid for each pup on separate dogs account. (Which I already have going, for any dog-related emergencies). I thought it was a good idea, and as strong assurance of the dog's safe return should anything go wrong as there can be. But a long-time breeder (over 30 years) when he heard of my idea he didn't like it! He said no refund at all, just help with re-homing.

I'm not sure if he is just a bit greedy. Or is there a reason he might be right? For me compared to ensuring the pups future life and well-being, money mean nothing....

I have to say that I've never been in the happy position of having an account for vet bills, or for putting the proceeds of the sale of a litter into!    So if any breeder achieves that (re the sale of puppy proceeds especially) good luck.   I was always more than content to break even on a litter, with perhaps a couple of nice puppies to take into the next generation.

No way would I offer a full refund for a returned puppy other than within the early days after leaving me, and even then, depending on the circumstances.   Yes, I had a return clause but that's all. I think to offer a full refund could leave it open to the returning owner to think 'easy come, easy go'.   And it's nothing about greed.  It's easy enough for people to walk away from what should be a life-time commitment as it is.  So I'd have to agree with the established breeder of 30 years, who said no.   I'd want to be involved in any rehoming of course, but fact is if an adult male were to be out of his home, without separate kennelling, I'd not be able to physically take him in, keeping stud dogs in a non-kennel situation myself.   

If anybody is lucky enough to feel that money means nothing, they are just .......... lucky!!

I just thought it would be a straightforward solution to the problem in your question 3:

"Why don't BREEDERS put a return clause in their Sale Agreement, and if they do, how can this be enforced so these often puppies, don't end up on a website like I'm seeing. I have on occasion emailed the seller suggesting they go back to the breeder, but whether they do, who knows."

If the goal is that a dog one has bread does not end up on a "preloved" and similar sites should anything go wrong, but instead comes back to the breeder, I can't really think of a better answer to this...

Regarding making the new owner think "easy come, easy go". I agree that for many people to walk away from a dog is not a difficult thing to do. But do you really think that offering/withholding full refund going to make any difference here?

Suddenly someone's circumstances change, they get married/divorced/new baby/move abroad etc, and the dog becomes a burden. Is the prospect of retaining/loosing the £400 they paid couple of years earlier really going to affect their decision of whether to persevere with their life-time commitment? It just seems so doubtful to me. If the person no longer wants to keep a dog they will get rid of it. Knowing that they will get money from the breeder would only ensure the dog's safe return.

Just my opinion as I'm a novice after all. Just can't think of a good reason against offering refund, it a breeder can afford it.

> "Why don't BREEDERS put a return clause in their Sale Agreement, and if they do, how can this be enforced so these often puppies, don't end up on a website like I'm seeing.

Most breeders do, but as to refunds, many breeds, like my own,  have no real resale value after the 'blank sheet' puppy stage, so in most cases if the owner cares one jot for the dog they will let the breeder help find a suitable home.

Mine says: "If through unforeseen circumstances it becomes necessary to find your dog a new home, you should contact me as I may be in a better position to find the RIGHT new home, this would normally not entail any refund, as the adopters would not usually expect to pay for an older ‘rescue’ pup or adult dog."

I have acted as intermediary between parting owner and new owner where money has changed hands but in most cases taking a dog back puts the breeder out of pocket, and causes inconvenience.

Like a previous poster, my dogs are family pets and having a male back when I have no separation facilities would mean paying for kennels for an unknown period.

> do you really think that offering/withholding full refund going to make any difference here?

Yes.   Money rules these days and if somebody decides, for whatever reason, they can't keep the puppy, especially at some time down the road, I don't see offering a full refund makes any sense at all.    And once a pet puppy is over the age most puppies would go to new homes, their 'value' drops considerably.   Many really not worth a fraction of their original price.    Knowing 'people', if they think there is no penalty re not honouring a commitment (I'm not talking about an unforseen change in circumstances here, just people getting fed up with the puppy and wanting it gone) then they'll perhaps not think twice about returning the puppy, and walking away with what they paid for it!

I did have a return clause, or one that means if things went pear-shaped later on, the owner would at least get in touch with me first, in my sale contract, but thankfully, only once did I have a puppy needing a new home, through change of circumstances.   In that case the original owner came to me for help in finding him a new home - and money didn't come into any of it.

> "Why don't BREEDERS put a return clause in their Sale Agreement, and if they do, how can this be enforced so these often puppies, don't end up on a website like I'm seeing. I have on occasion emailed the seller suggesting they go back to the breeder, but whether they do, who knows."

See my reply further up.  Some breeders do, but it doesn't always work - my labrador had a return clause and her original buyers still dumped her on rescue at 4yrs old.  Her breeder had no idea until I took her on two years later from her second home, found her tattoo (which had never been updated) and contacted her.  She'd had a litter in the meantime too, which she shouldn't have had.

"Knowing 'people', if they think there is no penalty re not honouring a commitment (I'm not talking about an unforseen change in circumstances here, just people getting fed up with the puppy and wanting it gone) then they'll perhaps not think twice about returning the puppy, and walking away with what they paid for it!"

Personally I would not want my puppy to live with people who are fed up with it, and so would very much rather them walk away with what they paid and have the puppy back in caring environment.... This is the "sense" I see in providing refund.

Sadly I find out the same with Shih Tzu's. It breaks my heart to read just last night..... 11 week old for sale because the kids are tired of it...I myself looked at a little girl over a year ago in a private sale...She was only a year old...i couldn't  just walk away once I saw the conditions she lived in.....and brought her home...her 5th home!!!! Needless to say she's in her fur ever home now....