I read an interesting post earlier about KC registered dogs and noted a comment made by Jeangenie.

I quote :

I wrote and suggested that the KC should only register pups from parents that a) have had the health checks relevant to their breed, and b) have been placed (1st - 5th) at Ch Shows in their breed classes (obviously needs some tweaking to take into account the Import Register etc) because then at least the parents would be reasonable representatives of their breed.

end quote.

I understand the logic of this and perhaps something like this would be a good idea. I totally agree that health checks for the breed should be part of the deal.
On the showing point and placings at Champs show I am unsure. The logic is fine and makes sense. However would it be possible that if the restriction was that tight the gene pools could become too restricted and that cause problems in itself therefore defeating the object ?
Would an idea be that there could be some regional panels consisting of group judges who issued a certificate of the Dog being a good representation of the breed ?
As with all things it could be open to bribary and corruption but so could the placings at Champ shows ;)

What does anything else think and what suggestions do you have that could make things better and less open to abuse

SaraW :)

I can see both sides of this argument. My first litter was bred from 2 dogs that hadn't even a RCC between them but produced a Sh.Ch. bitch and a RCC winning bitch. Had these "rules" been in place I couldn't have used the dog I did.

BUT, I can also see that only quality dogs should be bred from, hopefully those with a show placing would have some decent points about them. In Golden Retrievers or Labradors, a 5th in some classes is a major achievement, in some, like my own breed a 5th is easily won.

ok , what about..have to have all relevant health checks and attend a breed survey and get a certain qualification, before being allowed to be bred from..so that doesn't mean you have to show your dog..as most of the time politics are involved and would as already said reduce the gene pools.
Tracey

Hi Lily,
I know the idea needs working on, and relies on total honesty from all the judges ;), but I'm used to largish classes (25+ in Post Grad for example) where just to get placed is an achievement. With numerically smaller breeds maybe something else would have to apply... Any ideas?

What would happen to the working lines if this were to happen? I think they'd be down the drain. Not everyone wants their dogs to be like show peoples dogs.

Guess what this is coming from someone who doesn't work their dogs but shows them, but I'm sure it would be a worry to many people if this were to happen. Just a thought!!

Hi
Breed survey so you don't have to show them...?

there could be something to take into account working lines.

It's not about how pretty a dog looks but how *physically correct* and healthy it is :)

Maybe if there had been *something* in place the show lines and working lines in breeds wouldn't have got so seperated in some breeds ??

SaraW :)

True, I hadn't thought about working lines (although the first Carriage Dog Trials ranging from 10km to 40km will be taking place in July, to prove that a dal is still capable of doing its job!).

What would be a good way of incorporating good working stock whilst still stopping puppy farmers churning out poor quality pups onto an unsuspecting Joe Public?

Though as SaraW says, the KC probably won't take up any idea that cuts its income!!:)

I bet if even if we all came up with a fantastic workable plan between us it would be blocked by the KC as it would probably reduce the numbers of dogs registered ;)

Cynical SaraW :)

Totally agree with the health checks, but I for one would hate to own a dog that looked like the dogs that enter the ring these days of my chosen breed.

Some years ago, basically in an attempt to curb puppy farming, we had a multi-agency meeting to send forward certain proposals to the Kennel Club. One of these proposals was that only dogs with relevant health checks, and that had won above a certain level in any recognised discipline (show or various working disciplines) should be allowed to have registered progeny.

It was recognised that although this was desirable, it was unworkable; and we now know that this would only play further into the hands of alternative registries.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

What would happen to a dog/bitch if it was a wonderful breed speciman but for some reason could not be shown...e.g. damaged tail in an accident.This is something that cannot be passed on genetically but does stop a dog from winning in the ring.
I think at the end of the day it is and always will be down to educating people and hoping that people have enough love and respect for their animals to want the best for them.
I do think there needs to be stricter laws concerning the alternative registrations though-many people buy pups reg.with them and think they are KC reg.I spoke to a lady last year who was trying to rehome an elkhound and when I asked her if she was KC reg she said yes.On asking more questions it turned out that she was Dog Lovers reg and the woman was really upset.I've had people ask me about pups(not mine-I don't breed) and when KC reg papers are mentioned they say what do they look like and what do I do with them.Its not suprising people are getting conned.
Archer

Agree with you on the health test side of things Sara, but not sure about the show wins or placings.

I have bred two champions from the same bitch, one was sired by a Champion and one by a dog who had never been near a show ring, his owner having retired from showring, in fact he was 4 when I used him and he had never been used previously, but his bloodlines suited my bitch and his conformation , health and temperament suited me.
I will very rarely sell my puppies to show homes, most go as pets, but amongst those there are one or two dogs who I would possibly like to use in the future, they will never see the inside of a show ring or even be seen by any one in the breed, but I am confident enough of my own judgement of my breed to use them in my breeding programme.

What worries me most is that human nature is such that underhand dealings will go on.

e.g. Years ago we had a super little Jack Russell dog who was winning wherever we showed him (before the days that they were recognised by the KC). There was a move by the breed club to start an elite register in advance of KC recognition. Guess who's dog was turned down by the person who was evaluating him!!!!!! Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that we had beaten him hollow in the previous years show could it. LOL.

Sorry but that is me being cynical.

Another thing to consider is that even at shows it is only the judges opinion as to which dog is closest to the breed standard and all judges opinions vary hence the fact that different dogs win at different shows!

OIMHO
Jayne

Noooooooooooooooo Jayne - I wasn't the one who said about the show placing - I was quoting another poster :)

I said I was concerned about going down that route but that maybe a breed assesment could be made :)

SaraW x

My bitch is endorsed by the breeder but what you're all suggesting is in the contract to have the endorsements lifted;

a) Must be at least two years old

b) Must have had all relevant health checks done

c) Either a decent showing history or a breed survey/assesment

If I fulfil that criteria with my bitch then the endorsements will be lifted:)

Stacey x x x

I agree something needs to be done but who would assess? The last breed seminar I went to a breed specialist did a talk on the breed standard and then someone else doing another part of the talk disagreed. There was quite a heated debate about who was correct although you only need to read the breed standard to know.

How would I feel if one of these people assessed my bitch and didn't like her? Hand on heart I think my bitch has something to offer the breed whereas several of mine haven't and therefore I wouldn't breed from them. My bitch shows like a bag of spuds on a bad day and I hate to think that would stop me from breeding from her. Before I get lynched I have to say she did win her class at Crufts last year so she's not that bad really.

the trouble is the KC are so money orientated. Like now after we all go to the trouble to endorse pedigrees, they've said that if the dog/bitch is sold on to someone else, then unless the breeder gets them to sign for the endorsements, they are no longer enforceable :rolleyes:

Grace

In that case I'm going to try and put something together for buyers to sign. Some people will breed from anything and it's either that or I just won't register any that aren't up to scratch. It means you just end up dealying registration. I recently bought a pup who is now 4 1/2 months and is still not registered by her breeder. The breeder is waiting to see if one of the others goes to a show home before wasting money on registation fees.

it seems a silly ruling to me Shirley cos then if someone wanted to breed without the breeders agreement, for whatever reason, they could "sell" the dog and do it that way....money again :(

Grace

ive used imports on my bitches, that havent been in the ring over here, --theyve sired well and caseys dad is top sire this year------so he wouldnt of got used with those rules inplace,---not all showdogs prduce, --and not all producers are show dogs

Like others who have posted, when we wanted to breed with Loki, firstly, her breeder looked her over, to evaluate her (AFTER we had her hips scored and eye tested), to ensure that she was "up to the mark" for breeding, THEN we looked long and hard at the dogs we could use for stud, checking their histories back, to ensure that, so far as was humanly possible, we were not throwing together any potential problems. It's not as easy as just finding the nearest Aussie - we started looking and researching potential studs just after Loki's first birthday, but as our breed standard says no puppies until after the bitche's 2nd birthday, we were well in advance.

Eventually, after lots of valuable advice, we found Loki's "dream boy" - and we were delighted with the resulting puppies - of whom we have kept 2!! - we had intended to keep one, but one of the others just hit our hearts too - so we have kept Venus in Blue Jeans and Puddin on da' Style (known to us as Beau Piddley)!!!

Margot

With regards to the championship show placings you could end up with Judges withholding the lower placings (or indeed any placings) if the only dogs in a given class are from a 'rival' kennel. I also don't believe that showing is the be all and end all of dogs but maybe properly set up breed assessments could be an alternative?
Bec

Hi Bec,
That's why I said it would hinge on the absolute honesty of the judges!!!:p And we all know how good some judges are.....

I wish there was tighter breeding rules myself. But would that really stop people from breeding? I see unregistered dogs all the time in the paper for sale and people are still paying money for them. It would be nice if all breeding stock had to be inspected some way, like in some breeds of horses. They would get a rating and then approved to breed. Some horse registries also have a preformance test for the stallions as well and if the KC did that then you would still have the working lines present, which in my own opinion is just as important as the conformation aspect. It's obvious to me that even some very responsible breeders can be "kennel blind" and breed the wrong animals.