How do you all handle the issue of protecting your puppies from infection while being sure to socialise them properly? What do you do about providing the other dogs in your family with the walks and exercise they need and expect, while hoping that they do not bring anything home to the puppies?  I realise that visitors can be asked to remove their shoes, sterilise their hands, etc.  But my quandary has more to do with my other dogs.  When I take them walking, they are exposed to whatever microbes are lying around, and may even bring some kind of devastating intestinal infection home to the puppies.  Dogs here in Switzerland are basically 100% vaccinated, so the danger is not the really bad stuff, but all the same, a massive intestinal infection (for which no dog is, needless to say, vaccinated) can be fatal for puppies.  If we go to the woods, even the wild animals and their diseases present danger.  If we go through the fields or to the park the same is true, as well as the presence of all kinds of pesticides. herbicides, fertilisers and other chemicals.  So:  do you let your dogs run joyfully o'er hill and dale and return home bearing whatever in the way of microbes on their feet and coats as well as in their mouths and poops? 

I cannot separate my dogs and my puppies completely.  They do have to live in the same house, walk and play on the same floors and go out into the same garden.  Now that I have puppies at home and another litter expected in a few days, I restrict my walks with the other dogs right now to a garden center where practically no other dogs ever go.  We walk through the expanses of potted plants (a very large area, where they keep their entire stock of plants, not the shop itself), hoping to avoid whatever may have been sprayed on them, but it is boring, to say the least.  I wash their feet when we come home before they have a chance to walk around the house.  I carry each one from the car to the sink!  Their feet aren't even dirty or muddy, but I just hope I am washing off some of the microbes...  Any suggestions welcome.

Their mothers should have passed immunity to all the things you've mentioned if
1) she has encountered them in her lifetime ( and been able to establish antibodies to them)
2) they definitely had the first colostrum given to them by their mum.

Taking the mother and other dogs in the household out for walks always risks encountering a bacteria or virus they haven't encountered before....a small risk in a well vaccinated population I'd say.

Thanks for your answer!  How long does the colostrum last?  These puppies were c-section and did not nurse properly for quite a few hours after birth.

> How long does the colostrum last?

24+ hours....can be as long as 48

I usually collect some colostrum from the bitch ( if she has lots of milk) and freeze, that way I have some for emergencies in a following litter.

> Taking the mother and other dogs in the household out for walks always risks encountering a bacteria or virus they haven't encountered before....a small risk in a well vaccinated population I'd say.

In fact your just as likely to bring something back as any of the dogs, so unless your prepared to never leave the house never have anyone visit, there is always a minimal risk.

least risk from dogs and the bitch who has built up good immunity by frequent exposure.

In fact those people who avoid visitors in first weeks and happy to have people visit after 6 weeks have it wrong way around as pups most at risk when maternal antibodies start to wane, and most protected in first weeks.

latest research shows mothers immunity lasting up to 14 weeks . for further information you may like to look at research by Dr Ron Shultz and the wsava

Yes I do know that, but it starts to wane as pups are weaned off Mum from about 6 weeks onward.

There is more information on colustrum and how long it lasts, here:  https://www.puppyculture.com/fading-puppy-syndrome.html

You'll see there is a large fall-off just 4 hours after birth, and ends totally at 12hrs after.

When we had puppies around, and we had no separate kennelling for our lot, we restricted where we took our adults on exercise.   We were lucky to live in the 'sticks' when doing litter, so although of course it only takes one dog (fox?), in the main our adults didn't meet up with other dogs in any case.   There is a limit to how much anybody can protect their puppies/litters from however.   We didn't do any shows when 'with pup' or go to any gatherings of other dogs.   I know of one breeder who stupidly took one of her adults to a fun day - and brought back Kennel Cough with the result that although she did manage to save some of the litter, she did lose some.    My puppies are in the kitchen (by around week 3 when a second 4 X 4 section is added to the original section to give them more room) but the sides of the box prevent nose to nose contact, even if the adults were interested!!   So contact before external vaccination is limited.   With mum, when she goes outside to empty, before she goes back in with the puppies, I wipe her feet and teats with a diluted antiseptic solution.

The natural immunity from mum, provided the puppies take the first milk (and I believe, that mum's boosters are current before being mated), should last for roughly 5 weeks after which it gradually drops until by around 8 weeks, it's felt safe to externally vaccinate, and the vaccination take.***

Best I can say is I haven't ever lost a puppy/puppies to some walked-in infection.   Thankfully!!

When my puppies went outside, before being externally vaccinated, they went into an extended ex-pen which wasn't where our adults had been walking, or emptying.

Visitors - removed shoes and washed hands but fact is I tended not to allow touching early on.   I didn't have people in early days, not because of the risk of infection but more because having strangers in to 'gawk' didn't do my bitch much good.    People she knew - fine, but not strangers until the puppies were older and ready to be chosen for their new homes.   With Bassets that didn't happen until they were over 6 weeks by which time their ears had begun to 'come down' and they looked more like 'Bassets'  LOL.

***  "latest research shows mothers immunity lasting up to 14 weeks . for further information you may like to look at research by Dr Ron Shultz and the wsava "
That being the case, why does external vaccination, given from 8 weeks on (I had mine done at 10 weeks) actually 'take'.   If there is any immunity there, as far as I'm aware, it is unlikely to take, and would be pointless - and the puppies at risk, after 14 weeks, because the external vac. hadn't been effective?   Confused.com

Now that is a question mamabas. many would disagree with the current early vaccination p[protocols and it is suggested that starting later would give a better chance of the vaccines "taking " one reason for multiple vaccines is exactly that because in many pups mothers immunity gets in the way of the vaccines taking so vets have to vaccinate more than once to make sure at least one is successful not because you actually need more than one fro each disease. your comment was spot on many pups as we don't routinely titre to see if vaccines have taken are actually not  covered anyway and its the mothers immunity that is covering them together with their own developing immune system. It would cost more to vaccinate and then titre each pup than vaccinating and assuming all is well and if you repeat that vaccine hopefully like me throwing something at a dart board something with hit the bull's-eye. Sorry that's probably a bit flippant but its the best way I can understand it

tbh the whole vaccine  argument is so emotive and also there are differing opinions it really is better to research yourself for the most up to date research from a number of source in particular not from the  local vet.Its rare they are interested enough after what they have been taught anyway or have the time to investigate the ins and out of vaccinations, or  the drug companies data sheets.
Both Dr Shultz and Dr jean Dodds are good people to look at as is the  information on  the wsava  sites.

Oddly or so I thought the Royal college of  vet homeopaths has good info on conventional vaccines actually saying that  the first vaccines should be conventional ,although in line with current thinking and from the drug companies knowledge boosters do not need to be give more frequently than three yearly as immunity last many more years than that in some cases a life time without boosters

it is  possible to titre prior to vaccination to see what levels immunity is at and almost immediately after to see if the vaccine has taken. of course then you have to take into account if the pup is non responder which muddies the waters further .

Most pups are vaccinated at a frequency the vet decides is right at the time   and then never actually tested form immunity afterwards. There is  evidence that some pups actually don't have immunity from vaccine but may gain it through natural exposure later in life and are trotting around with owners thinking as they have vaccinated all is well on that front when in fact its the pups exposure and his own immune system tha is building immunity.
Its a very difficult area and as I said I am no expert but have read through a lot of research and personally from  my current conclusions  I wouldn't vaccinate as young as 8 weeks more than likely leave until 14 or at least titre first. As for socialisation I would restrict to areas that are not dog heavy areas unless I had titred and confirmed immunity unlike others I know who prefer to increase contact outside to gain natural immunity. Fortunately I won't behaving a pup in the near future so have time to decide exactly what I would do and it could easily change I learn more.
Hope some of that helps but more than anything you have to do  you own research and do what you feel is best for your dogs

Tagging on the end...
Human babies are usually born in a hospital full of ill people and have visitors almost immediately. Is there a reason pups are treat differently? Genuine question!!
Admin please move to another thread if necessary.

Good point George pig and then all and sundry usually picks them up amd passes them around once u get home  . .as I said an emotive subject

So ..... going on from the 'new thinking' re early vaccination...... if it's felt mum's immunity lasts for up to 14 weeks so vaccinating before that age doesn't take, given we in the UK at any rate, externally vaccinate from 8 weeks and with just 2 sets of shots, again 2, sometimes 3 weeks later, does that mean a large percentage of puppies are NOT protected - perhaps not until they received their boosters, 12 months on?   Our puppies were given their first set by around 10 weeks, and the second at 12 weeks.   We lost none to any of the sometimes fatal dog diseases vaccinated against.   So much as I an always interested in new thinking, I don't get this one.

I knew of one kennel in S. Ontario who allegedly had every one of the puppies in their litters titre tested.   And vaccinated accordingly.   I suppose that would be one answer to 'when'.

I just use simple basic hygiene rules
All dogs live as one big pack and my mums mix with them as soon as they feel they want too - usually from about 7 days
All go out on usual walks
Dams sponged off with warm water and diluted hibiscrub and dried before going back into pups
Visitors asked to Visit in clean clothing and hand hygiene followed

Vaccinations never vaccinate before 12 weeks due to maternal antibodies inhibiting uptake off vaccine
my vet does lots of work for guide dogs and they started to find  far too many come back with poor immunity or no immunity to  parvo so they now give a third vaccine at 16 weeks. personally feel the WSAVA guidance is best with vaccination programme finishing at 14 weeks at earliest to limit excessive vaccine exposure on immature immune systems

> does that mean a large percentage of puppies are NOT protected - perhaps not until they received their boosters, 12 months on?

It was certainly true for oen poster on this forum, whose pups was vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks, and came down with Parvo at 4 months.

After she recovered titre testing showed she had no antibodies for anything but the parvo she had recovered from.

This is why I'd rather not complete vaccinations until after 12 weeks and take reasonable precautions during early socialisation.

After all I don't think it's that wise to take pups of under 14 weeks to heavy dog traffic areas anyway.

I'd rather do that thank take the risk that pup in fact wasn't protected until it's booster at a year.

> given we in the UK at any rate, externally vaccinate from 8 weeks and with just 2 sets of shots, again 2, sometimes 3 weeks later, does that mean a large percentage of puppies are NOT protected - perhaps not until they received their boosters, 12 months on?

Some yes won't be covered from the vaccine.
The ones I read reckoned maternal antibodies can cause problems for vaccinating till around 12-14 weeks allthough some will start to lose them sooner or later on but before 12 weeks had the lower chance of taking and 12 weeks pluss a better chance.
However many don't vaccinate at all prefuring to use other methods to build natural immunity, not something I would do but seems many do it with no sick dogs.

Mine was done at 8 and 10 weeks as per my vets advice. She was going to dog places, training and started showing, then got parvo at 7 months. The vaccination company payed for her to be tested once she recovered enough and she had no immunity to anything but parvo. Both The vac company and Professor Ronald Schultz (one of the top people in the area) who her breeder emailed said it would have been maternal antibodies blocking the vaccinations.
Was told by him the last one should be given between 12-14 weeks in future. I've read he now gives a single vaccine at 14 weeks.

Many apologies I thought she was 4 months when she was sick

As I now vaccinate at 10 weeks for the first one and full puppy course of vacs can be given 2 - 4 weeks apart, it might make sense to do them at 10 and 14 weeks in future?

Mind you Schultz article on his research showed that at 12 weeks most pups seroconverted:  http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/
"The vaccine manufacturer Pfizer performed a field study in 1996. Researchers Hoare, DeBouck and Wiseman assessed vaccinated puppies and split them into two groups.

Group A received a single vaccination at 12 weeks

Group B received a first vaccine between 8 to 10 weeks and a second shot at 12 weeks

When titers were measured (titers are a way to measure a dog’s level of immunity), 100% of the puppies vaccinated once at 12 weeks were protected.

But only 94% of the puppies in Group B were protected …

… despite receiving two vaccines as opposed to one.

It would appear that the first vaccine reduced the effectiveness the the second vaccine."

Wow, all very interesting.  It's a minefield. 

No matter what the research says, though, I wouldn't feel comfortable socialising a puppy without any shots at all - so if waiting till 12wks, the socialisation window is largely closed by then. 

What about 8wks and 12wks??

> What about 8wks and 12wks??

That I think has got to be better than 8 and 10, though I still think plenty of socialisation for all but really large heavy pups can be done pre vaccination, (people and places) especially if you also own other dogs yourself.

Not wrong - 'it's a minefield'

Yet again I'm glad my breeding dogs days are over!!    The longer we live on this planet, the more complicated it all gets, it seems.    All I can say is my routine with my puppy vaccination worked in that NONE went down with one of the often fatal dog diseases.   I have to be suspicious still in terms of not vaccinating at all, until later.   If this was best practice, me thinks we are likely to be seeing way more puppies developing something like Parvo, Leptospirosis and even Distemper, than at present (UK).

And I thought the second set (UK) was a booster for the first - not that the first would mask the second set?

First doesn't  mask the second but if the first doesn't take due to maternal antibodies then then second may do or should do unless a non responder .If a non responder u can vaccinate as often  as you like amd will still not show immunity if titres are done the other difficult issue is memory cells that don't show on titre but could be there anyway so dog is a actually immune.  I can see the sense in doing titres either before vaccinatiin and or after to see what immunity is gained.this should be fairly accurate if done directly after vaccine or in the unfortunate event of illness

Just to add, as said, one breeder I knew in S.Ontario apparently titre tested each puppy in their litters before giving any vaccination.  Hum.  As we can get up to 10 + puppies, that would immediately put the cost of doing a litter through the roof, given what I was quoted here (UK) for titres.   Perhaps these people had a 'friendly' vet but I know I'd not have been able to do that so again, kept to my routine which seemed to work!

I take my pups out from 7 weeks but don't vacinate until 12 weeks - the reason I don't vacinate before 12 weeks is that maternal antibodies will prevent seroconversion of vaccine. The same maternal antibodies gives protection to the pups. I avoid heavy dog traffic areas but I stand at roadside to let them see traffic to see traffic, livestock have them off lead in paddocks to teach recall etc

I agree titreing would increase costs so that something else to consider.   if you  find a vet doing vacci check  it should only cost £40 per pup for the whole set of diseases. I think some vet are being a bit naughty with this and are pushing prices up . after all you if  stop vaccinating as a result there is a financial implication to the vet as well. Vaccicheck is in house and its packs of 10 or 12 sets so with 10 pups maybe a possibility at not to much extra. I do understand where you are coming form though
However my view would be if it would mean I wouldn't have to risk any reactions from vaccines I would happily pay extra for a pup to have that done. Hopefully with my next pup I will be able to discuss this with the breeder

> Many apologies I thought she was 4 months when she was sick <img class="fsm fsm_smile" src="/images/epx.png" title="smile" alt="" />

No worries lol :D.

-

I've put in my puppy pack under vaccination for owners to not have the second one before 12 weeks, also about not boostering every year either the 3 yearly plan or to titre test and if good don't booster.

I carried my girl out and about before she finished her vaccinations and let her play with vaccinated dogs or dogs I know are safe. No more risk than me leaving the house and coming back with something on my cloths/shoes. Unless your disinfecting yourself before coming home. I had to do that when Fay had the parvo when I left the house as I work at an animal care college didn't want to get blamed if a student's or staff dog went down with it.
Although I know people who will take out pup a as normal as I guess as said if their maternal immunity would stop a vaccination it should do the same for the disease.