I would like to tell you about this, as it casts a shadow over so many issues for me, and I never did get any definite information or diagnoses from the vets and the labs.  They simply could not say what happened.

Heaven (small breed, ca. 6 Kg) was mated by my male at home over a period of 7 days or so, multiple matings.  This was back in 2013.  She was not quite 5 years old and had had 3 litters to date.  The first birth (5 puppies) went well, though three of the puppies were very large (over 250g) and two were significantly smaller, though perfectly OK.  The second birth took place at the vet's and required injections of oxytocin between puppies.  There were 6 beautiful puppies, all perfect.  The third birth (again 6 puppies) was at home, we lost one puppy, who was unable to start breathing (despite all efforts on our part) and one had to be put down a week later due to water on the lungs. 

Then came the fourth birth in March 2013.  The pregnancy was problematic.  Heaven stopped eating at around 28 days into the pregnancy, and it was necessary for me to feed her.  She also exhibited quite severe pain in the shoulder area.  Why?  No one could say.  It was just suddenly there and stayed.  (Went away forever eventually.)  I had blood tests and scans done, and there was no sign whatsoever of anything wrong.  She was carrying 7 puppies.  About 10 days before the expected birth, I did an ex-ray to count the pups, and the vet (to whom I no longer go) said that only two pups were ossified, the others not yet, so we'd have to repeat the ex-ray later.  I found this extremely strange, but as I had never encountered this before, I didn't argue.  The vet was unconcerned, and I still think he missed a huge red flag....maybe...

The birth began on its own, but after 26 hours and still no contractions whatsoever, I opted for a C-section.  Was I wrong?  Please tell me, as the vet simply said:  "We'll do whatever you want!"  (The modern view, where we are no longer "patients", but only "customers".  Personally, I still want to be able to hang on to the doc's white coat!)  After all those hours, I was leary of going through the night without knowing about the puppies' heart frequencies, as I'd experienced in previous years a couple of times the necessity of a hasty C-section in order to save the puppies.

The C-section produced 6 beautiful, equally-developed puppies and one puppy who looked as if it had died in utero.  Of those 7 puppies, 5 died at birth (despite all efforts of the several doctors on hand), while two were perfectly normal and grew into lovely examples of the breed.  I was devastated, needless to say, and this whole experience has hung over me like a dark cloud ever since.  (You are helping me understand about matings, finally.)  According to the lab reports, the reason the 5 puppies died (or 4, actually, as I think one was born dead - I was not in the operating room - but it looked sort of dried up when the puppies were shown to me) was due to immature lung function. As though they had been born prematurely. The lab reported no signs of genetic abnormalities.

So I have been wondering all this time if the "immature lung function" was due to the extended matings and the possible difference in "ages" at birth (a suggestion from many).  The puppies were equal in size.  I will never forget the vet bringing a bundle wrapped in a towel into the room where I had been waiting a long time with the two normal puppies and turning back the towel to reveal 4 beautiful but dead puppies (the 5th one having died in utero).  An experience I hope never to repeat.  But it has left me wondering about this issue of matings, and I am most grateful for the light you have shone upon it.

I don't know the answer to your question Nimue, but was just doing some reading of my own around c-sections and found this article:

http://countryside-animal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/C-Sections-Does-Your-Bitch-Need-One.pdf

Specifically: "Bitches should not undergo a surgical c-section unless they are minimally demonstrating signs of early labor (stage 1 labor) such as nesting, panting, or shivering due to a core body temperature drop. During this time, important chemical interaction is going on between the bitch and puppies. One example involves the production of surfactant. Surfactant is laid down in the lungs of puppies during the last day or so of pregnancy to allow them to breath properly post-delivery. If a c-section is done too early, this chemical is not present in the lungs of the newborns, and death commonly occurs within 12 –24 hours."

Thanks very much.  The thing is:  stage 1 labor had been going on for 26 hours or more (!) before the c-section was done!  Also, the death of the puppies occurred immediately following the "birth".  They simply could not start to breathe. 

This has been my problem all these 2.5 years since this incident happened:  I cannot find anything conclusive.  I appreciate your tips here and will follow them up!

Sure, I don't know if that's any use or not, but it just seemed relevant when I was doing some reading around.

What day did she go into labour on? And was this date counted from last maiting?
Wondering if the litter was younger than though if she didn't ovulate untill after the last maiting

My most recent litter (all pups live) lasted for 36 hours, and then she delivered pretty fast.

This is the dilemma.  I would have had nothing against waiting as long as it took if it weren't for the heart rates of the puppies.  But when the pups become "stressed", then you have to act (according to the vets I have had) and act fast.

It's lucky that your vets have monitoring equipment to check on fetal hear rates, I have yet to find a vet that checked them in a pregnant bitch, possibly they wouldn't' know what normal was.

The best way to establish if you have a primary interia and need to c section is to run serum progesterone. If reading is 2ng or less she is full term, the bitch should be in active labour and if not pups should be viable if section undertaken.

We need our local vets to be able to run progesterone.

My vet can get a same same result using his usual lab
At a pinch an in house " target" premate test kit would do

In my experience though most vets dont' carry the premate kits, so too late during a whelping to get one in.

We must be lucky as there doesn't seem to be problems in my area, perhaps we are blessed with breeder friendly vets. I know I am blessed with the vet I have for sure !

It's lucky that your vets have monitoring equipment to check on fetal heart rates, I have yet to find a vet that checked them in a pregnant bitch, possibly they wouldn't' know what normal was.

The monitoring equipment is simply the scanner (ultrasound).  You are happy if the heartbeats are 180 (per minute, I assume), while immediate action must be taken if the rate is 140 or lower.  Saturday evening the rates of my puppies in utero were around 150 to 160, so not so great.  The vet waited a while to see how this would develop, and after a couple hours found that one of the puppies had worsened.  That's why he opted for a c-section.  I can imagine that he felt that to try to induce the birth at that point with oxytocin would be too much for the pups.

My puppies are now doing just fine.  Mum too.  I am thinking that perhaps one has to accept the fact that with a great many c-sections, you will never be able to know for sure if you did the right thing.  I dislike c-sections - I suppose everyone does? - as to me they always feel like some kind of failure.  And my poor bitch, having missed the great event and cut up besides.  And the scar tissue in the future.  I have had a lot of c-sections in my career, about 10 in 40 litters, which amounts to 25%.  One vet told me that I am not willing to wait long enough and that if I would do so, eventually the contractions WOULD set in.  But the trouble is the heartbeat rates of the puppies.  The other night, my vet agreed that this is always a problem, and you have to walk a tightrope if things are not progressing as normal.  He also said, after the OP was over, that one of the puppies would have died.  So one vet says I should just wait, the other one says the pups would have died.  I experienced twice before (with two other vets) their saying that if I wanted to save the puppies, a c-section would have to be performed immediately.  This after I had "waited" nearly 24 hours for the contractions to commence.  So one's previous experiences are a huge influence and cause for anxiety.  I guess, as I say, I will never really KNOW what to do.

My most recent litter (all pups live) lasted for 36 hours, and then she delivered pretty fast.

Are you saying that stage 1 labor lasted for 36 hours before the stage 2 contractions began?

I know it's not quite the same, but having had two c sections myself because my sons' heart rates were dropping, I was just glad we were alive. I soon got over any idea of failure, the main thing is you did what was best for Mum and pups.

I know I'm too judgemental, but the two things that stand out in all this, for me, is why the need to take so many litters from the one bitch.   Surely if you don't get what you want from 2 litters, provided the first isn't a C.Section (I didn't do another litter after one C.Section) then it's time to call it quits with that particular bitch.  Secondly, why the need to do multiple matings.   Two (or even just one good one!) matings should be more than enough.   Done 48 hours apart makes it difficult enough to know what is the bitch's due date without allowing multiple matings over a week!

I have no idea what got these puppies but suffice to say taking that number of litters from one bitch could well have contributed to the disaster with the last one especially when she was getting older all the time.

I'm thinking along the lines of MamaBas - and also thinking that if 25% of the pregnancies need C-sections, and it's not in a breed which needs this many usually, then are you breeding from bitches which can reproduce naturally?

Yes, until first pup was born. then all 5 delivered in 1 hour and 15 minutes.

Breed makes a huge difference.  I have bred 22 litters with 3 C sections.  One was a friends bitch who was older than I would have a first litter, and had been unwell during mid pregnancy with enteritis, and was very thin and lacking energy by whelping despite my best efforts to get weight on her.  She just had very low reserves and needed help after first pups, delivered three more at vets with Oxytocin and Calcium, but needed a C section for last three.

Mine is a medium size primitive breed.  I normally expect first stage from digging and panting to first pup to be between 12 - 24 hours, and pips delivered at 10 - 60 minute intervals with occasionally a rest of up to two hours.. 

Have had one show no signs, other than a bit unsettled,  and go straight to stage two, didn't expect it as still had three days to go, though now know based on progesterone (the only one I had ever had tested) that it was correct day for whelping.

She went 4 hours between her 4 pups, fifth one she had Oxytocin and was born dead.

I know for example boxers take ages, so I think you have to make an educated guess.

None of the vets  have ever used have been expert enough at scanning to use the technique for fetal monitoring.

None of the vets  have ever used have been expert enough at scanning to use the technique for fetal monitoring.

Actually, all my vet did (and I have seen other vets do this) was to sit in front of the little TV screen on the scanner and literally count the heartbeats he was VIEWING on the screen for one full minute.  Then he went to the next pup and did the same.  And so on.  Took a lot of concentration. 

You say (I think) that the first pup was brought with Oxytocin and was dead on arrival.  Does this back up the statement I read recently that one puppy must be born before administering Oxytocin to the dam?   Doesn't help much if the problem is with the first puppy, does it!  In any case, it is very interesting indeed to read about other breeders' experiences with birthing.  I've got another birth coming up in a bit over two weeks....

No last pup needed Oxytocin as labour had been slow, and was dead on arrival. 

Her next litter and the one after that were text book, pups every 15 minutes or so, all live pups and litters of 7.

Replying to all above posts.

My Willow delivered her first litter in June. First stage lasted around 26 hours. Usual restless pacing, scratching etc etc. Second stage commenced and first puppy delivered on sofa, she took after her mum who wouldn't have it otherwise. Willow had been scanned for 'quite a few'. Second puppy delivered after 2 hours, third after a further three. This is how it went. After each puppy she settled and snoozed as they suckled. Puppy number five was born at 10pm at night. So, I thought it all over and hoped to get some sleep, which we  did, puppies, mum and me. In the morning all was well with the puppies. Willow was drinking well, poo and pee done as normal and tummy seemed completely empty. Huh ! twelve hours after the birth of puppy number five she went into labour again. Sadly, puppy had a birth defect incompatible with life and expired soon after. Just thought I'd tell you this.