Hello!

So you've all be so helpful in my last question I thought I'd ask for help again :)

This time I think I found a good breeder.

- they are registered here on this website.
- they sounded a bit curt on the phone but over time opened up. They don't seem to do this professionally, these are family pets and they have the 'occasional' litter
- they can provide a health check cert from a vet
- puppy was wormed, injection etc.
- registration they say they have 5 generation but that's something I have to do myself on some website after buying the puppy?
- Puppy (a sharpei) had its eyes tacked by a reputable vet (I checked the vet's credentials)
- they don't use email, just sms
- they offered for me to come and check the puppy on site with the mummy

So basically I have three questions:
- when I'm on site what should i check for.
- can i post their URL here on this website and ask for comments
- if I can't post their details here, do you think would someone help me check this breeder out (north london) - i'm happy to pay for advice considering the high cost of the puppy.

PS: I clearly have no idea what' i'm doing and I don't want to mess this up!

Thank you.

Don't touch with a barge Pole!

A 'Health Cert' from a gp vet from a pet litter doesn't  inspire me with confidence in this rather tricky breed. Shar Pei fever is dangerous even fatal and a family history should be known as its an immune related condition. Many lines no longer need 'tacking'' as they have bred out the excessive wrinkle which causes the problem....along with skin fold dermatitis etc.
Its recommended that the following are done...
Hip dysplasia (abnormality of the hip joints causing pain and disability):  breed mean score 17 (parents should be lower)
Elbow dysplasia (abnormality of the elbow joint causing pain and disability:  score ideally O:O)
The Shar Pei is one of the 15 high profile breeds designated by the Kennel Club as requiring particular monitoring by reason of visible conditions which may cause health and welfare concerns.

Didnt you ask about French Bullogs originally?

They don't seem to do this professionally, these are family pets and they have the 'occasional' litter

That alone should be a huge red flag. If they do not show dogs and hence breed to improve a breed, why do they do it? There can only be one reason to breed from pure pets and that is to make money. Good breeders have real goals when breeding. That doesn't have to be showing, it can be working activities as well, but this is not a breed that is worked.

Not sure about the breed at all however why do they only use sms? Have you a mainland contact number? I'd suggest try the breed club to ask about breeder? When you say visit on site do you mean at their home or elsewhere? Always view in home with puppy present if not visited before litter due.
I'm still sure there are good breeders out there that don't show and have a good reason to wish a litter. If heath checks done,good envoirament, parents seen with and without puppies  it would not put me off. Not everything is about showing for some and breeders that do not and wish to share an excellent gene pool  shouldn't be made to feel a byb or people that buy from them are idiots.

Have a read of the 3 litters registered on here. Makes interesting reading, only one appears to have shown in the past. Is this breed another one where colour is more important than type?

Some great comments here as usual - is it ok to post the link from the champdogs site and gather feedback? I know some sites discourage this.

Regarding " Many lines no longer need 'tacking'' " - ok, but which ones and where can I approach breeders with said lines? Theres' only 3 listings on champdogs...

" If they do not show dogs and hence breed to improve a breed, why do they do it?"

Obviously I can't know that.. but I'm going to hazard a guess that they might have a pure breed dog as a pet and when the dog gets pregnant they then sell the puppies to make a bit of money? Rather than not have the puppies? I don't know really. Is that really bad? I remember having my first pet, when i was very little, I think my uncle got a puppy from a friend whose dog had puppies ... that practice from what I gathered was and still is very common.

Oh i just thought of something - since the dam and sire are both on the database , isn't it a case of tracking who the parents /grand parents and determining the 'line' - if this information is known, then surely it would be possible to know if these are good breeders or not ? (because if they were a puppy farm thing, there would be 1 bazillion puppies with the same parents?)

(sorry if i sound like I have no idea what i'm talking about, that's because i actually have no idea what i'm talking about :))

Avoid avoid avoid....
No dog should be bred from if it's eyelids have been tacked.
Health checks need to be breed specific and not from a general vet.

Just reread if the puppy has had it's eyelids tacked then it has entropion... This is an eyelid condition which is painful and often tacking doesn't work and an operation is required and this is hereditary. Now if you want this breed go to someone who shows, who doesn't breed from affected stock and isn't selling a puppy already tacked.. If the puppy has this condition then being open and honest and explaining that an operation is likely and that they will pay for it would go a long way... Personally I wouldn't want to buy a pet with this and would walk away

If you want this breed contact the breed club and ask for details of lines who don't need to tack. Go to some shows and meet the dogs and the owners and breeders. I really don't like the sound of this breeder. Yes you might find some good breeders who don't show however this is one who I wouldn't even consider

I've just done a search of his breed on this site who health test and only 2 breeders have come up and none in London

Actually @suejaw, http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/shar-pei/breeders?ht=1&wk= shows only 1 breeder with health tests, the other seems to be breeding inus.
So out of 138 breeders on this site, only one should be purchased from? But when you look at the page of the breeder in question, the certificate is missing when you click on it (and dates from 2012 anyway)



Pulling my hair a little bit here...

Just to say you are getting good advice here.finding the right dog from the right breeder can take months if not longer.suejaw has said some very useful things  contact breed clubs.also attend some shows to see the dogs and speak to show people to get an idea of who is who amd what you should be looking for.also you may need to travel a fair distance to find that good breeder by that I mean across the country.fot  my last dog I travelled around 300 miles on three occasions to meet the breeder the parents and my pup

Has the world gone blue mad?

What is it with all these breeds being changed to be predominately blue?

I'm still sure there are good breeders out there that don't show and have a good reason to wish a litter.

Sure, if they breed police dogs, or guide dogs, or working gundogs or similar. Never, EVER from pure pet dogs.

Not everything is about showing for some and breeders that do not and wish to share an excellent gene pool  shouldn't be made to feel a byb or people that buy from them are idiots.

And how do they even know this is an "excellent genepool"? Names on a piece of paper means nothing to a pet owner. To people heavily involved with a breed, they mean a lot. X is the dog with the great temperament but pale eyes, Y is the one who has a rather straight front, Z is the one that has the right confirmation but the hip score was a bit too high for the breed, A has it all as does B but B has been beaten a lot by A but only because of minor points and there is no reason to not consider B just because the rare superb dog came along at the same time. C also has it all but tends to throw pups with incorrect tail carriage.  D has wonderful working ability but his pups would not be suitable for pet homes because the drive is too high, E's pups has so far not been quite good enough to work. And even worse, F has a litter brother with epilepsy even though he himself is fine. Etc etc. A proper breeder WILL know the breed and the stories behind names in a pedigree. The pet breeder will see two cute, friendly dogs with decent hips and clear eyes and have no idea what could be lurking behind them.

> Is that really bad? I remember having my first pet, when i was very little, I think my uncle got a puppy from a friend whose dog had puppies ... that practice from what I gathered was and still is very common.

It's on the same level as teenage pregnancy or those from one night stands.

any litter should be planned, there is no need for any bitch to 'just get pregnant' and if an accidental mating does occur a responsible person will seek the canine equivalent of the morning afar pill, and injection that can be4 given right up to 6 weeks of pregnancy, or even have the bitch spayed.

It is important than a litter of puppies ahs the best chance of good health and temperament and for that to be more likely all the appropriate health screening should be done for the parents.  pedigrees researched for the kind fo pusp produced, any prevailing faults, and virtues taken into account.

Fro example does a particual bitch ro male line produce moderate wrinkling not needing tacking, wht is the incidence of Shar Pei fever.

do you have the parents KC names, you can check in the kennel club health finder tool what helath tests the parents have.

Re registration only the breeder can register a litter with the kennel club, the owner then transfers the paperwork to their name.  There are mickey mouse registries used by puppy farmers and people whose dogs can't be registered.

There is never a good reason why a supposed pedigree litter can't be registered with the KC..

The parents may have restrictions on their papers so pups can't be registered (called endorsements and usually placed to ensure the owner health tests before the breeder may lift them), the bitch may be too old, too young, had too many litters, or worse still not belong to the person who ahs the pups (many dogs are stolen every day).

Generally any breeder worth their salt will belong to a breed club, as they should be involved with other breeders, in order to be able to access breed specific information, see what dogs are producing etc.

All my dogs are family pets, but I also show them, belong to the breed club, and do all appropriate health testing when I breed, this will be the same for most reputable breeders, some purpose for their breeding beyond selling puppies.

Just looked into them and the clearly still need to tack the eyelids and therefore I would avoid. Blue as well, maybe I've missed something but not seen a blue in the showring..

Nope I would seriously look elsewhere and actually contact the secretary of the main breed club for advice and ask about some champ shows where you can see a large number.
It's a breed which does have problems and trying to find a decent breeder amongst all of these poor ones? Good luck on that.. Really not a breed I would want to embark on with all the problems it has currently, yes there must be some
Good breeders out there who are doing the right things and it's quite possible that they aren't showing on this site and don't advertise their puppies here because they have a list and don't need to.

I would not discount a breeder who does not show, they may not be in a position to do so. There are posts on thus forum where the best puppies from litters have gone to pet home, surely if these owners take the advice of their breeder or another expert and get all health tests done they should not be discounted. I would think they are not very common though!
In the most popular breeds I would think most breeds are bred for money (and not always by pet owners) but as long as the dogs are fully health tested and well looked after they are a better buy than pups from 2 random dogs thrown together that you see on Facebook pages

U would. Be well advise to take serious consideration in the information given by brainless. This breed is breed as with ma y others that has a lot of problems.a lot of people are breeding because they can not becuase they have much of any regard for the welfare of the breed.  Taking time to find that litter will help avoid all the heartbreak that surrounds having a pup from poor breeding.not every breeder shows but it's a pretty good start point to go with so go amd have a look at some shows.in March get to discover dogs I'm Birmingham and learn more about the breed .contact breed club.better to tale your time now than find you ha e bought into problems

When we were looking for our first Malinois we looked at who the top few winners were at Crufts the previous year, it then gave us a starting point for which breeders to look into further. We didn't want a dog to show, we wanted one to work but having somewhere to start helps. We then checked for hip scores etc and then asked about dogs the breeder had bred which worked both in Agility (as that's what we wanted) but also in other dog sports. We were lucky in that the breeder we picked had 2 pups left that were 12 weeks old but other times we have been on a waiting list for a while for pups.

Can I just say that indeed not every breeder shows, but it doesn't make them a BYB.

I can only speak for myself and my breed, I research my lines and the the lines of any dog I use, I health test far in excess of the assured breeder scheme and my puppies are raised in the house with as much care and attention as the whole family can give (which is an awful lot!). My adult dogs live free in the house and are  indeed pets, this is their purpose, they bring joy and happiness into my life. I constantly look out for new information that might help me a better dog owner and breeder, I have spent far more money on my dogs than I will ever get in the 'sale' of the occasional puppy. My dogs meet the KC breed standard and are good examples of the breed.

Why does the fact that I do not take part in the show world mean that I do not care for my breed or that I want to breed inferior versions of it, it doesn't. I care deeply, I just feel intimidated by the show world and from the tales I have been regaled with over the years from experienced show attendees and judges alike, this is with some justification.

Please do not judge everyone alike  - there are some undoubtedly terrible people who have no place even owning a dog never mind breeding them.

I have read many posts saying that people who do not show are BYBs and have resisted replying for fear of the backlash and vitriol that is likely to come from it. I do feel that it needs pointing out that not all non-showers are bad and that it is really important that buyers check out their breeders thoroughly.

Eye tacking.   Cough!    This started to become 'the norm' in my breed and was being done to protect the eyes of a puppy until they had 'grown into their skin'.   Fact is having to do this should never be the case!   If it helps save the eyes of course it has to happen, but fact is no breed, wrinkles or not, should be so exaggerated as to need this done on a regular basis.

Vet's health certificate - all that does is confirm the puppy is healthy at the time of sale.   You must always take the puppy to your own vet in any case.

Most good breeders would supply at least a 3, better yet written 5 generation pedigree with the Puppy Pack.  I don't see this is up to the buyer!

Of course it should be possible for you to go visit the breeders, meet them, see mum with her litter and their adults too.   And where/how they keep their stock.   That's a given.

All puppies shoud be wormed, from 2 weeks and every 2 weeks to the time they go home and new owners should be given a medical record again, with the Puppy Pack.   I didn't vaccinate mine unless they were still with me at 10 weeks at which point they'd be given their first set, with those I was keeping.   I prefer not to do this because some vets won't accept any vaccination done by the breeder, and I didn't want mine over-vaccinated.   This was, with mine, normally started by the new owner's vet, at the time of the initial health check.   Other breeders do vaccinate however.

With due respect to being listed on this website - it would be a good idea to go to the Breed Club and ask for names of reputable breeders - hopefully the people you have found will be members!    Nobody will/should give personal recommendations, or otherwise, on a public forum.   Slander/libel.  

Much as you may have called at a difficult time, no breeders with a litter available, should be anything other than open and friendly.   And not doing emails - not everybody has the time to read and reply, especially if they have adults and a litter to be looking after.   I prefer a prospective buyer to make phone contact, and an appointment to come and visit.

What to look for - a happy healthy litter kept in suitable surroundings - best in the home where they'd be getting used to the normal sights and sounds of a busy household.    Any bad smell, dull staring coats, puppies reluctant to approach and show no interest in doing so - run.   And be prepared for them to ask you as many questions about the home you are offering, as you'll have of them.

Do you have a friend who is experienced in dogs/puppies who might go with you?

Going to a show might give you the chance to hook up with a lot of breeders - LKA in Birmingham is coming up - go to the website (Ladies Kennel Association) and check which day the breed will be showing.

ps   Just looked at the litters available on this website ....... looking at that pedigree - not that it's the be all and end all, but not a Champion to be seen!   Indeed not showing doesn't make a breeder a BYB, but if they do show, it shows a depth of commitment in their chosen breed, at least?   And forgive me, but wasn't it originally the intention to rescue this breed, breeding OUT all the excessive wrinkling that was causing huge problems in the breed in it's original country?

My dogs meet the KC breed standard and are good examples of the breed.


There is absolutely no way you can say that unless you have proof -i.e. show wins. Even top breeders can get kennel blind.

I care deeply, I just feel intimidated by the show world and from the tales I have been regaled with over the years from experienced show attendees and judges alike, this is with some justification.


So you have based a decision on rumours, gossip, people's sour grapes and Chinese whispers? That is exactly what it comes down to. If it's so bad, why are so many people showing week in and week out?

I do not want to derail the tread but I feel I must reply, I will try to be brief.

I respect your ability to criticise me without knowing me, that is your choice.

However there are many fine examples of every breed that have never stepped foot in a show ring due to going to pet homes at 8 weeks or so of age. Most pet owners Primary concern is finding a healthy dog with a good temperament. This is not the exclusive product of showing.

As for rumours etc., I can honestly say some of the nicest people I have met are well known and respected within the show world, the things I have heard are not sour grapes they were told to me as merely a part of a conversation. I have no doubt that the showing world is an enjoyable one, but I do not judge your decision to show please do not judge mine, every one is different.

I would def advise going to a dog show and talk to people. This is what I did and was pleasantly surprised to fine everyone very helpful. I have gone on to own a puppy from a breeder that I met at shows over a period of 12 months and have decided to show myself as a complete newbie at 72 yes young. The social side is great and look forward to every show to meet up with my new friends.

Its a tricky point about showing or not showing and what makes a BYB. Now I show my girls and have shown dogs for many many years and indeed now do some limited judging of my chosen breed. However its all well and good to dismiss breeders who do not show as not breeding for the right reasons. The "Money" question is always raised. If a breeder does not show or compete etc.. they must be bad. But 90% of all dogs bred are sold to pet homes. The biggest consideration a pet buyer has (or should have ) is the temperament of the chosen breed. I know many many competitors/showers who have never been anywhere near a character assessment or a basic obedience qualification. I know many top winning dogs of all sorts of breeds who are programmed to stand rock still for the judge but outside the ring are quickly put into a cage or whisked of to the car because they cannot cope with  normal life.  There are just as many bad show breeders I am afraid. To me a person who is educated enough to keep up to date with the looks of their breed (and some people do not approve of the changes in the type being bred, is it wrong to produce a Shar Pei with less wrinkle to make the dog's life more comfortable or to breed one with so many  that may suit the show ring but may make the dog's life uncomfortable ? ) and who health test/character assesses and keep lovely quiet well behaved dogs in a good environment and breed the occasional litter using the best available stud dogs even if they do not show/compete but have pets who have good health results and live a happy family life maybe with a little fun showing or basic working/obedience/agility/carting etc.. are no worse than the big show breeders who breed quantity and looks above all else in the hopes of making a champion and selling the extra pups to pet homes. With this in mind are those breeders who breed and sell pups as pets wrong ? If they breed with care, breed to fill the market that is the family pet, and produce happy healthy dogs, why then is it different to breed just to try and produce Champions ? Some breed for show wins, some breed for happy pets, both should be breeding for health and temperament. The show world is not for everyone. It can be a scary place and after all its a certain kind of person who likes to spend wet weekends trailing all over the place  to win a ribbon in whatever field they compete in ! BYB breed without care, they use any available dog, they cut corners and scrimp to make money but there are non showing breeders who take as much if not more care over the dogs they breed. The things to look out for are the same wherever you find your puppy.

You have had plenty of good advice here. I just wanted to add that no puppy should have to have a procedure to correct bad breeding. If the puppy has this fault, what other faults will appear later. This is a breed which is renowned for having health and sometimes temperament problems. If you want a healthy pup you really need to contact the breed club and choose a breeder that has proved the health of their dogs in the show ring and have results registered with the kennel club.

Well said Hen,

My first GSD was from a breeder like yourself and he was a lovely dog. He was "only" a pet but I learned so much from him that I became interested in working trials (not my intent when I got him) and have, subsequently, worked shepherds for most of my adult life. I do happen to prefer one phenotype of the breed and sometimes think that I have horns when stating so.

I have bought two pedigree pups and enquired about others. Contact the breed clubs. They were always most helpful and if you do not want to travel too far try a local; club. Can you go to a dog show?
the breed mentioned here has lots of genetic problems so it is very important to go into it thoroughly.

Replying to all posts on this thread.

What has happened to Champdogs in the years I have been subscribing to this site ? Feel free to disabuse me but I was under the impression that litters advertised ( and stud dogs etc etc) were a guarantee of acceptable breeding standard. Having read all three Sharpei ads I am now assured that anything goes . What a load of crap ! All three ads are surely generated from the same byb/ rubbish breeding establishment.

Champdogs, take note. We trusted you to promote excellence in breeding practice. We recommended your site to principled/authentic puppy buyers. And you are letting us all down.

Could say more but am tired .

http://www.spcgb.org/pgsec.php?page_cat_ID=19

This shows what tests both parents need to be tested for and problems in the breed.

There is a breed champ show next month in the midlands which I would try and get to if you really are keen on getting this breed

but unless you have ben involved in a competitive arena with yore dogs, and had them independently assessed by a variety of experts, and been able to assess them against others you cannot gauge the quality of your dogs, even if you know the standard off by heart (it's not really detailed enough), and many standards could apply to several breeds, but the breeds are quite different in type.

You can assess temperaments and you can health screen, but then when you come to breed you have to make a choice of stud, and how will you find a god stud, compare his offspring to base that choice of breeding partner?

How so you keep abreast of developments regarding health etc within your breed, unless you belong to breed clubs and mix with other breed enthusiasts.

At best you have to rely on second hand knowledge, maybe the stud owner, but they ma6y have a vested interest in you using their dog.

So no you do not have to show or work your do to be a knowledgeable breeder, but these are the venues where much of the needed information for your breeding can be found.  Especially the results of others breeding and what different lines may produce.

"This shows what tests both parents need to be tested for and problems in the breed."
(that's re: http://www.spcgb.org/pgsec.php?page_cat_ID=19)

... actually not really. There are no breed club recommended tests and some of the conditions listed on this page cannot be tested for (FSF).

I'm not being funny here but saying 'don't ever buy a dog that didn't have the health tests done on both parents' is quite meaningless for this breed and many others - even the breed club doesn't know what to test for (and check out the breed club page, a lot of the litters linked from the site via the members themselves have no reference to health tests)

(x posted from another forum, but you've all been so helpful I thought an update was in order).

Hello everyone,

So in the end, I went and had a look at the breeder's home and puppies to form my own opinion.

I was immediately put off by the fact that I was asked to go and sit on the sofa while the puppies were brought to me, followed by the dad, and then followed by the mum.

I then asked to see where the puppies lived , and while observing the area in question, I noticed that the back garden had fencing installed, but more importantly I spotted a very wrinkled tiny puppy interacting with what looked like another mum. Uh-oh.

The certificate by the vet was shown to me, nothing was explained but I'm pretty sure that 'corneal scarring' and 'previous ulcer' aren't a good omen.

The registration appeared to be in order, however based on what I've learned from various forum members, it might not have been. I however am under the impression that ll the necessary vaccinations and microchip been had been done. The eye tacking had been done by a recognised expert.

I didn't like the shape and color of the eyes of the puppy I was shown, and on that basis alone I will not be purchasing this puppy. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination so I cannot comment on the validity off the practices that I observed. On a purely personal note, I did not enjoy my time there, even though the puppies were obviously very cute.

You can have a BVA eye test to confirm that the parent doesn't have nor been operated on for entropion. I know that a few smaller breeds are testing for PLL, I understood that there was a form and a vet would complete that to confirm if the adult had any signs of this.

I would go along to that show and also speak to the club secretary about health and other concerns that you have in trying to find a decent breeder.

Thanks Barbara for your comments, I always read your posts with interest and they are normally fair and helpful.

I was merely trying to point out in my original post to the OP and any one following the thread that all too often breeders who do not show are called BYB, only out to make a quick buck. This is just not true, there are many careful breeders out there whatever their showing experience, it is for the prospective owner to do their homework and investigate the breeder as much as possible.

Quality is different things to different people, to to people who show it is how a dog looks that is supreme, to working dogs it is their drive and work ability and to a pet home it is a dog that spends very little time at the vets, loves its family madly and is a wonderful companion. None of these roles is better or more important than the other.

My most recent stud was proven in the show ring and his offspring are winning all over Europe, but he also has a fantastic temperament and ALL the health testing you could wish for my breed - this was the reason I picked him.

You talk about keeping abreast of things, you make assumptions about my level of involvement, I keep up to date as much as I am able, spending a lot of time doing so.

I would like to say that all the owners of the stud dogs I have used have been extremely generous with their time and knowledge and do not come across as having a vested interest.

Just because I do not have to confidence to show my dogs does not mean that I am criticising those that do.

thank you for reading my comments

I did not aim the reply at you personally, (I always address the topic not the poster individually) but to the principle in general that without involvement in your breed in some competitive venue, where comparisons and evaluations can be made, and engaging with those who do, people are not in a position to assess their dogs or the breeds needs. 

You can't breed in a vacuum.

So many people breed who know nothing of their breeds health status, and know nothing of the dogs in their own dogs pedigrees.

> to people who show it is how a dog looks that is supreme

That for me is certainly not true, I try to ensure with sensible choice of partners to load the dice in favour of having at least typical and hopefully an exceptional pup as regards the standard, which covers looks but also character.

> to a pet home it is a dog that spends very little time at the vets, loves its family madly and is a wonderful companion.

This is also (or of more) of paramount importance to me, as choosing a puppy at 8 weeks, who will stay with me for life, if it's show potential isn't realised then I have lost nothing, and just have to try again for that elusive star quality puppy.

As a breeder continuing a line I inevitably have more dogs than the average pet owner, so avoiding the need for the vet is arguably even more important, as I am by no means well off

I think most will agree without a good temperament no matter how beautiful the dog you are on a hiding to nothing, and the dog is n pleasure to own.  On the other hand a dog with a great temperament is easily forgiven any lack in the looks department

Great post Brainless and is why, even though I have only ever bought a dog purely as a pet not to show, is why I have always bought from a breeder who is active in the show world.

A good temperament is hugely important to me, but I also want my dog to look like the breed it's supposed to be.

I've not read all the comments here and this may have already been said, but just to suggest that of course most puppies in a litter go to pet homes (and I regard even my show-dogs as my pets first).   If a prospective pet owner goes to a reputable breeder, one who does show, but maybe only breeds for the next generation, you should be able to assume that careful planning has gone into each litter.  Although you may not get 'the best' because that breeder will want to keep the best, at least you'd benefit from the care that has gone into producing that litter, from choosing the right stud dog, to conception to whelping and care afterwards.

FWIW