I recently booked and paid deposit on a  5 week old puppy  met with breeder saw photos as distance to view was considerable and breeder is respectable breeder and judge  I  paid deposit, travel arrangements all made, booked  time off work  to be with new pup for few days settling in only to receive text message  to say  breeder is now unable to  let pup come to me a stud dog owner now wants bitch puppy and as I  was last on list I don't get puppy. Have tried to contact breeder by landline and mobile and have sent text with no reply  Breeder has said deposit will be refunded.  To say I`m disappointed is an understatement. I was brought up to believe a deposit was a commitment on both parties to proceed, even more so as  breeders advert clearly states Deposit secures

Moot point because I'd tend to take it that once a deposit has been taken, this constitutes a 'binding contract' unless something happens to the puppy meaning it's no longer there to be sold.

On the other hand, for a number of reasons I'm not getting into here, I had two male puppies (and two females) in an excellent, but disasterous litter (vet mal-practice, we sued and won after only 4 of the 9 pups survived).   I'd intended to keep one of the two bitches myself and agreed to let one of the 2 males and the other bitch go to another breeder.   I took no deposit, which I never did with any of our litters.    As time passed, I became less and less happy about letting the male who had been picked, go to the other person and decided to keep him myself, with his sister.   I let her know and obviously she was more than disappointed.   We had her husband on the phone and it got quite nasty, but I knew I was doing the right thing in not letting him go to her, even if at the time, it made for a nasty situation.

Fact is until the puppies are paid for in full, they belong to the breeder and should they decide not to let somebody have one of the puppies, that's their decision.   However, having taken a deposit does cloud the situation somewhat.   The monies taken should be returned.

You probably do have grounds to take this further, but to be honest, even if this breeder were to relent this relationship has already been soured and it's one that should have lasted, at least for the life-time of the puppy.   I'd suggest you chalk this one up to experience, and find another puppy.  You never know, another puppy may be better for you.   I also believe that when one door shuts, another always opens.    Just make sure you get your deposit back!!

I recently booked and paid deposit on a  5 week old puppy  met with breeder saw photos as distance to view was considerable and breeder is respectable breeder and judge  I  paid deposit, travel arrangements all made, booked  time off work  to be with new pup for few days settling in only to receive text message  to say  breeder is now unable to  let pup come to me a stud dog owner now wants bitch puppy and as I  was last on list I don't get puppy. Have tried to contact breeder by landline and mobile and have sent text with no reply  Breeder has said deposit will be refunded.  To say I`m disappointed is an understatement. I was brought up to believe a deposit was a commitment on both parties to proceed, even more so as  breeders advert clearly states Deposit secures

EMPHASIS: "I was brought up to believe a deposit was a commitment on both parties to proceed, even more so as  breeders advert clearly states Deposit secures"

It's a breach of contract & you can sue, however to sue in the small claims court you have to work out how you suffered >a loss<, if you can do that then you have an and shut case in terms that you understood "deposit secures" meant that a healthy pup was yours regardless of any other variables the breeder throws around, you had a contract.
.

HP wrote:

"work out how you suffered >a loss<"

In law dogs are classed as 'property'.....whatever price the pup would have been is the value of what you have lost, so, as the result of breeders breach of contract you have lost the opportunity to own 'property' to that value, personaly I would try it, but thats me, hope the info is useful.
.

Thank you to those that have offered advice. This breed is on the vulnerable breed list so puppies are not so easy to come by.  I will not be taking it further I feel it could make issues for me in the future with other breeders so will bide my time and hopefully  be able to have  puppy from another breeder.  Just felt so let down by an eminent judge and breeder whom  I trusted to honour deposit paid and advert wording Deposit Secures  which to me is lying as deposit did not secure.

There is no loss, (other than understandable disappointment) as the deposit will be returned, and the OP is free to purchase elsewhere.

Also most breeders are not selling as part of a  business, it is a private transaction.

A breeder primarily breeds for themselves and for the breed, especially in a numerically small one, and fi the stud dog owner wishes to have a puppy as they like the quality of the litter, the potential needs of the breed really do come first, though it is disappointing, or the person who booked a puppy.

Of course just as easily the puppy could have died, or been found to be unsuitable for homing due to some health issue etc, so nothing can be completely certain.

The OP was the last on the list for a puppy so hopefully this time they can get in on the ground floor for another litter.

I must say my deposit receipt says non refundable unless for unforeseen reason I cannot supply the puppy, the deposit is returned.

Breeders are often let down by buyers too.

I have only ever once backed out of selling a pup once I had agreed a sale as it became increasingly clear that the potential new owners had very unrealistic ideas about how they would manage owning two entire dogs of the opposite sex, (returned deposit, and suggested they wait antoehr year or two before adding a pup).

> There is no loss, (other than understandable disappointment) as the deposit will be returned, and the OP is free to purchase elsewhere.

Correct!    I do believe the non refundable deposit statement should be qualified, as suggested by Brainless.   I think this breeder needs to adjust the wording of her deposit receipt as to leave it as 'deposit secures' would leave her open to a sue situation if she happened to change her mind in the interim.    And as mentioned, I had to change my mind re the sale of my puppy to that particular person ..... and I'm glad I did!

Breeders can indeed be let down by buyers.   Selling those puppies I couldn't keep was perhaps the worst part of breeding, for me

It is disappointing isn't it, I thought I had a puppy from a respected breeder a few years back, went down and picked my girl, then the day after was told that they'd looked again at their pick and she had a wrong mouth so they were keeping mine. Their right to do so of course, they bred the litter for themselves not me, but it was pretty disappointing when you would think they should have checked before letting other people pick! As others have said, just chalk it up to experience and try again.

Hi Saintmarys,

I do feel for you and your disappointment, the breeder should never have taken a deposit.........forgetting the legalities, it was most unfair to do that, a breeder should be sure if taking a deposit........

However look at it this way, my first point, in not visiting the pup and her seeing you with that pup, in her mind the pup is not committed visually to you, all be it on paper, so it makes it easier to let you down, next time be there, no matter how far.........

Secondly, we all breed to better our lines, and I dare say this pup blossomed and took the eye as 'potentially' part of the stud dog owners breeding programme, it is the right place for any pup to be, as part of its breeds continued health, temperament and breed standard.  It is why responsible breeders breed.

It's not as though the pup is just going to another pet home, particularly if a 'vulnerable' breed as you say, the more good 'specimens' the better, back into a breeders line.

You now have two opportunities......... and happily you realise that, no point in getting angry if a breed you really want and nicely, nicely is the way to go........when you get your deposit back, call the breeder and tell her how completely disappointed you are and as long as she was happy with you via her vetting wants, could she please put you to the top or at least 2nd/3rd on her list and also with the stud dog owners list, that is then two breeding programmes you could be ahead on, due to being let down so badly.

In these cases, with breeds that are not so accessible best to swallow your pride and just bite your lip.

Wishing you luck and really hope you have your pup soon,

Vulnerable breed or not, what I find disgusting about this is that the breeder contacted you by text message. I understand and support all the arguments or keeping the best examples of any breed in the potential breeding-pool, but informing a person by text is sheer bad manners.

As others have said though, the best course of action is to bite your lip and move on. You will find the right puppy for you. If the breeder has any integrity, she will want to assist you with finding a suitable puppy and be genuinely empathetic to how you are feeling. If it is such a vulnerable breed, would you be prepared to show your puppy? Breed clubs have their own breed-only shows that are often a good way to catch up with your dog's relatives and other owners and pick up lots of tips and advice (as long as people turn up and support them) You can even enter as NFC (Not for Competition) if you just want to dip a toe in the water and see what goes on. Is the breed still used for it's original function, or would be be tempted to try one of the dog sports?

A lot of vulnerable breeds are vulnerable because they depend on the pet market for puppy sales and the pet market is notoriously fickle (not to mention scary when a breed explodes in popularity and starts to be bred by the cowboys and opportunist breeders) so breeders walk a fine line between 'battening down the hatches' and 'actively promoting'. Some just like being a big fish in a small pond and that's a human character flaw and has nothing to do with the breed

Facebook replies:

Vicky Hingley says: Thats horrible, get in touch with KC - any self respecting breeder/ judge/ HUMAN BEING would have sorted this out and discussed it with all parties, not avoided you. You say you met with the breeder but only saw pics of the litter, maybe they don't exist - be sure to get your money back ASAP.

Moira Martin says: Report them to KC they will be dealt with very severely.

Jules Magee Burton says: How stupid for putting a deposit on a dog you've never seen!

Valerie Wright says: Usually you visit puppies at 6weeks then pay a deposit when you choose your puppy.collect at 8weeks.presuming the breeder has checked you out. How upsetting for you.

Alan Carter says: This is awful What breed was this ?

Sophie Hughes says: Bang out of order deposit means the puppy is yours no one can now have that puppy

Pam Brooker says: I thought a deposit secured the pup as sold to new owner when pup old enough to leave mum !!

Gloria Preece says: Don't buy any animals you have not first seen the owner /breeder this has has got to be stopped !!

Bang out of order deposit means the puppy is yours no one can now have that puppy

Thats a point I had not thought of, I wonder if in law the buyer could still claim to be the lawful owner of the if they did not/would not accept the deposit return & wanted the pup instead.
.

If the breeder is not in business, then many consumer rights and obligations don't apply.

What about when someone books concert tickets fully paid and they cancel the concert, money returned, no different really.

> Thank you to those that have offered advice. This breed is on the vulnerable breed list so puppies are not so easy to come by.  I will not be taking it further I feel it could make issues for me in the future with other breeders so will bide my time and hopefully  be able to have  puppy from another breeder.  Just felt so let down by an eminent judge and breeder whom  I trusted to honour deposit paid and advert wording Deposit Secures  which to me is lying as deposit did not secure.

This is a very sensible way to go.

This is one reason why I don't take deposits, then either party can walk away, change their mind & the puppy fully belongs to the breeder until the day it is fully paid for. ;)

If the breeder is not in business, then many consumer rights and obligations don't apply

Those laws are irrelevant, this comes under the law of contract.
.

This breed is on the vulnerable breed list

Have you ever thought of buying from mainland Europe? it's also probable that there they will be breeding from a wider gene pool, you could also check out the standards by checking a few Euro breeders web sites, the least you will get from that is knowledge, thats win/win cannot loose situation.
.

There appears to be quite a common theme that the breeder can do what they like with pups until they have been sold. While I agree that it is imperative that the pups' welfare come first, there seems to be no understanding of the emotional distress that withdrawal after agreement may cause to potential owners. The emotional bond can form very quickly; think of young children being shown pictures of their new family members and then picture the distress if this is snatched from them because someone has changed their mind. Yes there will be occasions when something won't ring true about potential owners but if you are expecting love and affection to be provided for pups you should surely be willing to treat people as human beings and not heartless entities.

> There appears to be quite a common theme that the breeder can do what they like with pups until they have been sold.

Because that is in fact so, they are the breeders puppies.

> Yes there will be occasions when something won't ring true about potential owners but if you are expecting love and affection to be provided for pups you should surely be willing to treat people as human beings and not heartless entities.

I hate disappointing potential new owners, which is why I vet as carefully as I can, and like to have a waiting list before puppies are born to have a  relationship with them before there are any pupa and f it turns out there aren't enough puppies work hard to get them sorted with another breeder.

But lets be realistic, a person may be disappointed, but it's like any other disappointment, a cancelled holiday they cannot bond with a pup they have never had.

The breeder is the one who has bonded with their pups yet has to face letting them go.

I can't keep every puppy that I'd like to and am often disappointed that I can't. 

I am often disappointed when new owners are keen to show and I choose them the most promising puppy and they never even transfer the pup into their name, let alone show it.

Life is full of disappointments, and there will always be another puppy, eventually.

Following on a little from Barbara's previous post..

I would be quite happy if my bitch just produced the puppy I wanted, yes it would make it one expensive puppy but I wouldn't have to go through the heartache of finding the perfect home for the other puppies.
One can not limit how many puppies are produced from a mating, so there is homes that have to be found for those not being kept.
It really isn't that easy & why, in 50 years of ownership of our breed, we have only produced 11 litters.

I too would be very disappointed, however if you start making a song and dance about this and you dearly want a puppy of this breed you don't want your name mud and not be able to get one.

I wojld chalk this up to experience and see if there are any other breeders you can go on a list or even if this breeder you wish to remain on their list for a puppy next time - I wojld give careful consideration on that.

I wojld however not leave a deposit and would want to visit the puppies before either side make a decision

I am often disappointed when new owners are keen to show and I choose them the most promising puppy and they never even transfer the pup into their name, let alone show it.

Surely with the new regulations  people will transfer their puppies into their names? Not sure why people don't transfer. Regarding showing I guess some people change their minds and it's a bonus if they show and gain awards for both of you.However  on my experience so far with the breed branch it  has put me off from attempting to try to show. A lack of any welcome or following through on email promises.

> Surely with the new regulations  people will transfer their puppies into their names? Not sure why people don't transfer.

There is no regulation for people to transfer the ownership of their dog with the KC, I suppose they don't fell the need to pay the transfer fee to have their name on the registration certificate.

Just checked and according to the KC I have 49 dogs registered in my name (including deceased ones) and I own/have owned 10!!!  I have bred 120 pups in 20 years.

That means 44% don't transfer.

I've found a marked contrast between breeds.
In Boxers I'd say less than 10% transfer..whereas in my other breed Cavaliers..(they seem to be seen more of a 'cash back' type of dog) over 80% do.

As I endorse all my pups perhaps that accounts for it then, but very few of mine have gone on to be bred from either, maybe one per litter.

I too endorse but still transferring seems the norm...
A very daunting task to even consider breeding and more importantly homing up to 11 boxer puppies I suppose.

Because that is in fact so, they are the breeders puppies

I'm sorry but I don't agree that ownership entitles mistreatment of potential buyers.

But lets be realistic, a person may be disappointed, but it's like any other disappointment, a cancelled holiday they cannot bond with a pup they have never had.

Again, I don't agree. While consumer legislation may class pups as goods it is not the same thing at all as purchasing an inanimate object or transitory pleasure. The sourcing and reserving of a pup demands, I believe, a great deal of emotional commitment and, rightly or wrongly, as soon as notification of a birth arrives, a bonding process begins. Life changing plans start to solidify (what else is a life long commitment to a pup) and a myriad of scenarios are envisaged to prepare for the pup's arrival. How many human relationships commence via written correspondence and on-line communication.

I think that there has to be more of a moral awareness of the impact that cancellation can have.

I agree Jake, I had certainly looked forward hugely to the puppy I thought I was getting, and had fallen in love with her even just in the hour or so I spent with her, and I was devastated when I was told very bluntly that they would be keeping her, hope I wasn't too disappointed, as if it was no big deal. Yes I fully understand it was their right to do that as they had put the effort in and bred the litter for themselves, but it didn't change how I felt.

and of course causing such disappointment should not be done without good reason, and should be handled sympathetically, but in the end it is the breeders pup right until the moment it leaves their premises or is fully paid for.

Well 'saitmarys' seems long gone, i guess they posted as a way of releasing some frustration.
./

All my puppy buyers are told that I have bred the litter so that I can have a puppy to show and breed on from. I never allow them to chose their puppy from the litter, obviously they tell me their preferences and so far everyone has been happy with the puppy they take home. I never take deposits.

In this breeder's circumstances, I also have a numerically small breed with a handful of breeders in the UK, I can understand the reasons behind their decision but cannot understand this lack of communication. In the past I have actively looked out for other planned litters and passed on details. 

With my last litter there was a complete misunderstanding with one enquiry, at the time of the first phone call I had a puppy available but was told by the lady caller that due to a planned holiday abroad in a few months time she did not think it was the correct time to have a puppy. It was agreed that she would come with her husband and young son to meet my dogs after the first lot of puppies had left to go to their new homes as they had never actually met the breed. I also sent out my usual questionnaire for them to complete.

A week later I received a phone call from the husband to arrange when they were coming to collect their puppy!! I no longer had an available puppy. When I explained that there had obviously been a misunderstanding between himself and his wife, he got quite abusive, saying that they'd told their 7 years old son he was getting a puppy and he'd already chosen a name for it. Due to this person's behaviour I was not going to help them find another puppy. Should I have felt guilty over this?

I don't see any reason for guilt whatsoever. I wouldn't even say it was a misunderstanding; sounds more like the lady wanted to go on holiday and the husband wanted a puppy. Breakdown in communication between them not you.

Facebook Reply:

Sarah Poole Evans says: I have just phoned a breeder about a King Charles and was told I couldn't view the pups for two weeks but if I wanted a pup I had to pay a £200 non refundable deposit now by bank transfer. What a con!!!!

I heard recently that a breeder (not King Charles) is actually charging people who want to come and view his dogs before they commit to a puppy and suggesting that they really ought to have been for an advisory visit before they go on his waiting list! I'm all for people meeting up with a breeder when there are no pups available and just spending time with the adult dogs and asking questions - but I've never heard of the breeder actually charging for this.

> but I've never heard of the breeder actually charging for this.

It's in the breeders interests after all to meet potential new owners, charging is ridiculous.