has anyone got any opinions on when and how often you should vaccinate a puppy?

my vet follows the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines, which states that vaccinations should be given "at 8–9 weeks of age, then every 3–4 weeks until 14–16 weeks of age." they interpret this as being 3 vaccinations - first at 8 weeks, second at 10 weeks, and the final one between 14-16 weeks. but they also recommend not letting your dog outside properly until a week after the 2nd vaccination (11 weeks), which makes me think getting the 1st vaccination at 8 weeks is pointless.

there's a website called "dogsnaturallymagazine.com" which repeats the following over several articles, but i can't find the Pfizer or the Vanguard studies online to actually cross reference:
* Pfizer performed an interesting field study in 1996. C. Hoare, P. DeBouck and A. Wiseman assessed vaccinated puppies and split them into two groups. Group A received a single vaccination at 12 weeks and Group B received a first vaccine between 8 to 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks. When titers were measured, 100% of the puppies vaccinated once at 12 weeks seroconverted whereas only 94% of the puppies in Group B seroconverted - despite receiving two vaccines as opposed to one. It would appear that if the first vaccine is given too early it could, in some cases, block the the second vaccine. So vaccinating your puppy twice not only increases his risk for adverse reactions to the vaccine, it appears to make vaccination less effective overall.
* Vanguard also tested the Parvovirus response in their combination vaccine. They vaccinated puppies at 6 weeks, 9 weeks and 12 weeks of age and then measured their response to the vaccine by measuring their titers to Parvovirus. At 6 weeks, only 52% of the puppies had seroconverted, meaning that the puppies vaccinated at 6 weeks of age would get all of the risk from the vaccine and none of the benefit because their maternal antibodies inactivated the vaccine. At 9 weeks, 88% of the puppies showed a response to the vaccine. At 12 weeks, 100% of the puppies were protected.
* It appears that 12 weeks would be the magic number where vaccines have a nearly 100% chance of working, meaning that your puppy should only need one - for his entire life. Dr. Schultz has done similar research with the distemper vaccine. In his study at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, designed to mimic an animal shelter environment, Dr. Schultz vaccinated with one dose of Distemper vaccine just four hours prior to the puppies being placed in a room with Distemper-infected/diseased dogs. All of the puppies (which were vaccinated at 12 weeks), were protected against distemper in this challenge study.

i'm tempted to get the 1st vaccination at 10 weeks and then wait 3 weeks and get a titer test done to see if there's any need to do a 2nd vaccination. that seems like a good compromise between the differing opinions.

but would i be better to wait until 12 weeks to get the 1st vaccination?

or should i just follow the vets advice and do 3 x vaccines at 8, 10 and 13-14 weeks?

i'm really struggling to know what the right decision is on this one... any and all advice would be gratefully received

by-the-by... i'd also love to hear opinions on how careful i have to be regarding taking the pup outside before i know the vaccination has seroconverted? especially considering that 4-12 weeks is considered the crucial time for socialisation?

If you do them before 12 weeks I'd get a second jab.

I do mine no sooner than 10 weeks after one in a litter 4 years ago had allergy issues (serious hayfever type symptoms) following her 8 week vaccination.

A friend in Scotland after giving her vet the information had one shot only (as she doesn't do Lepto) at 12 weeks.

I then  only do one booster and nothing more for life. 

Have not vaccinated any of mine more than that for the last 9 years. 

For the last 15 years none have been boostered more often than 3 yearly, but stopped 8 years ago.

As regards socialisation, as you and the pups Mum and breeder in most cases do not live in a bubble then common sense should prevail.  Check in your area with vets to see if there have been any recent outbreaks, avoid dog heavy areas, but socialise by taking pup out in the car in your arms, watching the world go by and socialise with known healthy dogs.

Think about it when we bring human babies home the chances are all and sundry will visit and cuddle and breathe on the baby, long before they are vaccinated against serious disease.

My vet starts vaccinations from 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks.

He says that the puppies carry too much of their natural immunity from their mother to do it any earlier! Vaccinations started too early are of no benefit to such young puppies.

My vet starts vaccinations from 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks. A booster is given 1 year later, thereafter every 3 years.

He says that the puppies carry too much of their natural immunity from their mother to do it any earlier! 
Vaccinations started too early are of no benefit to such young puppies.

This one is very much down to ones own decisions & everyone will follow a different way.

After the puppy jabs, we have never given any further jabs(boosters) in close to 50 years of dog ownership. In that time the stating time & gap inbetween has changed quite considerably. In more recent years, when I bought pups in at around 8 weeks, we have booked them in for 1st jab at 9 weeks, then 2 week gap then taken out a week later. Puppy age on this will be approx. 12 weeks & they go absolutely nowhere in all that time.
My last homebred litter where unusual & the first jabs were not given until pups(6 of them!!) were 12.5 weeks, so were 15.5 weeks before they went anywhere. This longer gap made no difference whatsoever on how they reacted to other people, dogs etc BUT I put in hell of a lot of work, mind you I kept 3 for myself & still had 3 boys, so that was one huge amount of work!!

> My vet starts vaccinations from 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks.<br /><br />He says that the puppies carry too much of their natural immunity from their mother to do it any earlier! Vaccinations started too early are of no benefit to such young puppies.

and I agree with him, even though so many now do 8 and last at 10, I know of one poster on this forum who ended up with a pup with parvo at 4 months, when titre tested after recovery it was found that she only had antibodies for parvo (as she just suffered from it) but not for anything else.

I don't give first vaccine until minimum 12 weeks and second at 16 weeks
I take my pups out and about in low canine traffic areas as they have acquired immunity from dam, IF dam was sick and not fed pups I would take greater precautions but with healthy dams with good titres I don't wrap pups in cotton wool.

> My vet starts vaccinations from 10 weeks and a second at 12 weeks.

Good advice.    I don't vaccinate my own pups until 10-12 weeks and think that mum does very well at giving them what they need prior to that.

3 vaccinations seems to much and a waste to me, as the first one at 8 weeks will have a high chance of being blocked by maternal antibodies, the 10 week one will also have a chance of it too. By 12-14 weeks it's less likley to be a problem. Also the data sheets I've read for the vaccinations said 2 sets so I'd rather not be giving extra ones for the sake of it what with people having problems with reactions.

My next pup will be done at 9-10 weeks then 12-13 weeks then titre testing at a year old. My last one I had done at 8 and 10 weeks and I later turned out she had no immunity to any of them.

russh, are you based in the UK?  Vaccinations procedures do differ country by country and what you're describing sounds more like north America.

Typically in the UK all vets I know of, offer 1st jab at 7-8wks and 2nd jab at 10wks+.  There has to be at least 2 weeks between jabs, so if 1st jab is at 8wks, 2nd jab is at 10wks+ but if 1st jab is at 7wks, 2nd jab is still at 10wks+.

When differing from that, everyone will have a different opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be giving 3 jabs to a young pup when 2 will do the trick.

I also would not be waiting till 11wks before letting the pup go out, I take mine out from 1 week after 1st vaccination - by which time most of them are fully protected.  There is a risk there, but far more dogs are PTS for behavioural problems than contract a contagious disease.

If you know what BRAND of vaccine your vet uses, and you are in the UK, you can look the brand up and get the recommendations direct from the manufacturer.  This is how the vaccine has been tested under clinical conditions, so you can be sure it works when used in this way.  If the manufacturer is advising 2 jabs, and the 2nd jab can be at 10wks.... You can look them up here:  http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium-datasheets_by_species/Species/-22361.html

I am sure that when I was a kid around 10 years of age our family dogs were vaccinated only once as puppies, possibly about 12 weeks of age but cannot be too sure as that was a  l o n g  time ago.
The puppy vaccination was for life in those days !

The problem being with not keeping up with a yearly booster it can make pet insurance void. It does advise in very small print pets need to be up to date with their vaccines.  Too many insurance companies  try and wheedle out of paying out why give them fodder? I recall my parents not vaccinating yearly or worming/flea powders  etc and no harm done. Is it safe to do? Should I run the risk of paying out insurance and not vaccinating? Plus when I have used kennels both for two nights only I had to have up to date vaccine certificate and Kennel cough. Tbh I'm quite confused on what's right re boosters  etc.
Does everyone not do boosters?

It would only cause an issue with Insurance if the dog had the disease it could be vaccinated for.

> Does everyone not do boosters?

Only the first after puppy shots.  Current dogs 12 year old had puppy shots and two boosters last in 2006.
nearly 9 year old, 7 year old, 4 1/2 year old and 3 year old only had first booster after puppy shots, and pup will get the same.

I'm curious now with my pet insurance looking through small print. Makes you question vaccines for dogs/cats and ourselves.I must admit I'd be reluctant to use the MMR vaccine now if I had young children I'd have them done as a single  dose.

Re boosters

I vaccinate annual for lepto and kennel cough

I have been running titre for DHP after 3 years and have found that on average antibodies have dropped to level where booster is considered  beneficial by year 3 or 4 so have satisfied myself that a three year schedule for DHP seems sensible

Have always kept all my dogs vaccinated as I dicated by titre right into old Agee. Never had a vaccine reaction / issue

It's been known by the drug companies for years that vaccines last in most case for at least 7 years but it's only just coming to th fore in more mainstream practice. Have a look at wsava guidelines .its says no more than three yearly is required after puppy vaccinations  many vets are now correctly following  it this advice. As for insurance companies, as said, very few require vaccinations to cover you with the exception of the disease that could be vaccinated against.some will also accept nosodes instead of vaccinations to cover you for these disease.  Always worth checking to make sure though.titres are another option to get an idea of immune status. I have only ever done puppy vaccines and would question very throughly the wisdom of early vaccines as often any immunity  is prevented by the presence of mothers immunity hence why theu are done two if not three times.the premise being one of these should work

The problem being with not keeping up with a yearly booster it can make pet insurance void. It does advise in very small print pets need to be up to date with their vaccines

Had this discussion with insurance a few years ago, they agreed (in writing ! ) that if . I got a letter from vet stating that they recommend 3 yearly booster then I would have cover.
I have just renewed and underwriters have changed, various questions from them about neutered, used for breeding, guarding etc and one about vaccinations, I said that my vet followed manufacturers protocol of 3 yearly booster and I had a vets letter stating this...'Yes that is OK'
I would prefer not to at all but at least this cuts it down and still keeps ins cover.

I am with animal friends more than and pet plan and continually have this question on other groups and forums.so far none of the insurance companies require any vaccinations for general cover just to cover you for those diseases you can vaccinate afainst  .direct line and Churchill will cover you for everything if you use homeopathic nosodes. None of mine have boosters and all three companies happily pay out and are fully aware .

UK.   My UK bred litters were vaccinated at 10 weeks (the full set) and then, with my then vet, 2 weeks later.   Yes doing the titres will give you the information you need, but it's not cheap for one thing and another, provided the puppies take mum's first milk (colostrum), they should be protected up to 5 weeks after which natural immunity drops away until by around week 8, external vaccination should be safe to give, and to have it 'take'.   Provided the puppy is kept away from all other animals, which mine were (I even restricted where my adults were being exercised off the property when we had puppies around, to reduce the possibility of infection being walked in), I preferred to leave it to 10 weeks before externally vaccinating.   I knew one breeder out in Canada who titre tested her puppies so they knew what was needed and what they were at risk of picking up.   But again, expense, when most puppies are fine being vaccinated from 8 weeks.

I can't remember, and it is many years ago now since our Canadian litters, how many jabs they had out there.   But  always had my vet do the shots, home and abroad, preferring to have each puppy checked before this was done.

ps   Provided the puppies are boostered 12 months on, with the full set, these days boosters can then be given every 3 years, apart from the one for Leptospirosis which needs to be boostered annually - plus of course, rabies, depending on where you live.

Rats, the edit facility had closed .... just to say I tended not to booster beyond age 7 unless for example, there was a parvo outbreak locally, and as was the case in Canada, the need for annual boosters against rabies.    We lived out in the 'boonies' most of our lives with dogs, which meant they didn't come into much contact with other dogs.   BUT we now live on the coast with loads of people bringing their dogs in on holiday from all across the country.   Which means I am having to think hard about boostering even every 3 years now.   It only takes one to bring something down here much as I'd have to think if mine aren't fully protected now, (6 and 7 years respectively) they never will be!   And we did have a Lepto outbreak here in recent years.

if you are interested in titre testing look at vacci check . there are a number of vets that use this or you may be able to persuade you own vet it only costs around £40

I think the vets 4 pets group is one the testing is done in house .

> if you are interested in titre testing look at vacci check . there are a number of vets that use this or you may be able to persuade you own vet it only costs around £40

I was quoted £60 by my then vet when I enquired about this........

In Response to rabid

> russh, are you based in the UK?  Vaccinations procedures do differ country by country and what you're describing sounds more like north America.

hi rabid - yes i'm based in the UK.

i know most vets here wanna jab at 7-8 weeks... but that seemed nuts to me based on the information i'd found so far... to show what i mean i put together this graph to estimate the percentage likelihood of a vaccine to seroconvert. the yellow boxes show the numbers i found on line and the green boxes represent figures i estimated to create a consistent arc to the graph.

that said i haven't found out which specific vaccine my vet is planning to use. thank you so much for the information and the link - that really is fantastic advice. i'm going to get onto doing this now.

In Response to furriefriends
some will also accept nosodes instead of vaccinations to cover you for these disease


hmmm... i had to look this up.

i found this article which seems to indicate you might be right

but when i checked here within the policy wording for direct line's insurance it doesn't mention nosodes or homeopathy at all. is does however say the following:
General exclusions
The following exclusions apply to the whole policy.
Your pet
We won’t cover:
4. any claim as a result of a condition that a routine vaccination is available for, unless treatment is necessary because the vaccine hasn’t worked. A routine vaccination is any that your vet recommends your pet should have.

while we're on this subject i do think it's worth drawing attention to what i believe is an important distinction in medicine: and that is the difference between having a "holistic" approach to medicine and using "homeopathic" medicines.

"holistic" simply means "whole" and encourages that "all aspects of (a patients) needs including psychological, physical and social should be taken into account and seen as a whole." this makes perfect sense to me. it's a sad state of affairs that in the world today "People are fed by the food industry, which pays no attention to health, and are treated by the health industry, which pays no attention to food." i agree with Jamie Oliver that it's crazy that "68 per cent of every case that goes through the NHS is diet-related."

but that is quite a different thing to homeopathy. Homeopathy is a 'treatment' based on the use of highly diluted substances, which practitioners claim can cause the body to heal itself. A 2010 House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report on homeopathy said that homeopathic remedies perform no better than placebos, and that the principles on which homeopathy is based are "scientifically implausible".

In Response to rabid

> If you know what BRAND of vaccine your vet uses, and you are in the UK, you can look the brand up and get the recommendations direct from the manufacturer.  This is how the vaccine has been tested under clinical conditions, so you can be sure it works when used in this way.  If the manufacturer is advising 2 jabs, and the 2nd jab can be at 10wks.... You can look them up here:  http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium-datasheets_by_species/Species/-22361.html

hey buddy. so i checked with the Vet and they use the following:
Canigen DHP (DHP stands for Canine Distemper (D) Hepatitis (H) & Parvovirus (P))
+ either
Canigen Lepto 2 (aka L2 - for Leptospirosis)
or
Canigen L4 (for Leptospirosis with additional strains if deemed necessary based on dogs living environment)

below is the information i found on the noahcompendium website. which is useful but unfortunately they don't mention seroconversion % likelihood found from clinical studies. i'm gonna write to them though and see what they say:

Canigen DHP
Modified Live Vaccine containing canine distemper virus, infectious canine hepatitis and canine parvovirus.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Canigen_DHP/-42605.html
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/documents/S4980.html
Vaccination regime
Primary course vaccination
A single injection should establish active immunity in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older. Where earlier protection is required a first dose may be given to puppies from 6 weeks of age, but because maternally derived passive antibody can interfere with the response to vaccination a final dose should be given 2-4 weeks later i.e. at 10 weeks of age or older.
Booster vaccination
To maintain protection a single booster dose is recommended every three years.
Dosage and administration
Reconstitute immediately prior to use by the addition of the contents of one vial (1.0 ml) of Canigen Lepto 4, Canigen Lepto 2 or Canigen Rabies.

Canigen Lepto 2 (aka L2)
Inactivated Vaccine containing Leptospira interrogans serovar canicola and Leptospira interrogans serovar icterohaemorrhagiae.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Canigen_Lepto_2/-34957.html
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/documents/S4165.html
Inactivated, bacterial vaccine containing a liquid suspension of Leptospira interrogans serogroups Canicola (strain Ca-12-000) and Icterohaemorrhagiae (strain 820K), each ≥ 40 PD80 per dose.
Primary course vaccination: All dogs not previously vaccinated should be vaccinated twice 2-4 weeks apart.
Puppies should be at least 6 weeks of age before they receive the first vaccination.
Booster vaccination: A single annual booster dose is recommended.

Canigen L4 vaccine for dogs
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Canigen_L4_vaccine_for_dogs/-69163.html
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/documents/S7238.html
Qualitative and quantitative composition
Active substances:
Inactivated Leptospira strains:
- L. interrogans serogroup Canicola serovar Portlandvere (strain Ca-12-000) 3550-7100 U1
- L. interrogans serogroup Icterohaemorrhagiae serovar Copenhageni (strain Ic-02-001) 290-1000 U1
- L. interrogans serogroup Australis serovar Bratislava (strain As-05-073) 500-1700 U1
- L. kirschneri serogroup Grippotyphosa serovar Dadas (strain Gr-01-005) 650-1300 U1
1 Antigenic mass ELISA units.
Onset of immunity: 3 weeks
Duration of immunity: 1 year
Basic vaccination: The first vaccination can be administered from 6 to 9(*) weeks of age and the second vaccination from 10 to 13 weeks of age.
Revaccination: Dogs should be re-vaccinated annually with one dose (1 ml) of vaccine.
(*) In case of high level of maternally derived antibodies, first vaccination is recommended at 9 weeks of age.

The majority of pups have had their maternal antibodies wear off by the age of 7-8wks, so if you are socialising a puppy outside the house and it's unvaccinated, it's unprotected during that time. 

That is why usually a 1st jab is given at this time. 

Some components of the jab may not 'take' because there may indeed be some maternal antibodies there at the time - for some puppies - which is why a 2nd jab is given at 10wks, to get those. 

Frankly, it works for most people and doesn't cause problems and I wouldn't want to be giving 3 jabs.  If you want to delay till after 10wks, then you could give only 1 jab, according to the vaccine manufacturers themselves - but the pup also would have (probably) no protection for a few weeks before that, which may limit what socialisation you can do.

my vet also advocates a third vaccine for parvo only component at 16 weeks IF earły vaccine protocols used.
Guide dogs have titred dogs and estBlished pups not covered with two vaccines on earły vaccine protocol - usually maternal antibodies are high to parvo due to repeated challenge

I do not want  stress my pups immature immune system too much and have reverted to traditional system of first vaccine at 12 weeks with second at 14-16 weeks
This is what WSAVA recommended. I  also start with DHP and after a month post DHP completion do I start Lepto. IMO earły vaccination protocols give people a false feeling of security - especially in relation to parvo

I have just had my boy's booster done again. Due to being in the middle of my cat's expensive running bill £378 I just went along with it. I am thou going to discuss with vet their policy regarding inoculations  and ask about 3 year policy. If willing to put in writing I'll go along with this.

In Response to klb

> I do not want  stress my pups immature immune system too much and have reverted to traditional system of first vaccine at 12 weeks with second at 14-16 weeks

its a concern that i have that vaccinating too early would have a detrimental effect on the long term immune system of the puppy. but i haven't seen any evidence that vaccinating too early can do that. i've asked a bunch of vets that exact question and none of them are aware of any correlation between vaccinating early leading to issues with allergies etc. but i've seen a lot of evidence that allergies can be caused by the breed (eg: dalmatians) or the diet (eg: kibble).

i did come to a realisation yesterday which makes me feel a lot better about vaccinations. it came to me after watching this youtube video: https://youtu.be/3aNhzLUL2ys

i was always nervous about vaccinations because i like to believe that humans and animals are not inherently "broken". the healthcare system we have in the UK is designed to fix problems. so it assumes that if some part of the body isn't working properly then the solution is to use whatever drugs will get that particular part working again. it's my personal opinion that an awful lot of the pharmaceutical drugs that are used are unnecessary and avoid properly dealing with the root of the problem which is often diet and/or lifestyle related. if you get in a car accident, or get shot, or suffer some other unnatural accident, then doctors and the NHS are great. but in the UK in my experience, there is no point to go and see a doctor otherwise.

but the realisation that i've come to is that vaccination is a necessary unnatural solution to an unavoidable unnatural problem. the unnatural problem is that modern living is unnatural! citys and towns are unnatural! if you lived like a native american around the 9th or 10th century then you wouldn't need vaccines because you'd be living in small communities and if someone within that community was so unlucky that they caught something then worse case it would wipe out that small community and leave the rest of the people in the country unaffected. but these days there are so many of us living so near to each other we've changed the very nature of the petri dish that we live in. plus we have cars, trains, boats and aeroplanes to further connect our towns and cities. vaccinations are an unfortunate necessity to deal with the problems caused by the close proximity and connectivity involved in modern living. its an unnatural solution to an unnatural problem. the only natural way to avoid the need for vaccinations would be to move to the middle of nowhere where you're unlikely to come into contact with other humans and their dogs.

perhaps this realisation is obvious to most people. but seeing vaccinations in this way has helped me feel a lot more relaxed about their use.

Russh  I have spoken to both companies who vi firm they will accept nosodes to cover the disease usually covered by vaccination. Obviously as to if you agree or disagree with homeothany is an individual choice .currently vaccination is not mandatory  in the uk thank goodness  for humans or animal. having the knowledge to make the choices is the important part imo . I am happy to only do puppy vaccines and would do them later than the 8 week often quoted as from my research and discussion s with groups who don't vaccinate mothers immunity does not start to wane until around 12 to 14 weeks so it so very likely that there are lots of dogs out there who owners and vets think are covered but arnt or the immunity theu gain is natural immunity.as with all things you make your own choices

Russh  I have spoken to both companies who vi firm they will accept nosodes to cover the disease usually covered by vaccination. Obviously as to if you agree or disagree with homeothany is an individual choice .currently vaccination is not mandatory  in the uk thank goodness  for humans or animal. having the knowledge to make the choices is the important part imo . I am happy to only do puppy vaccines and would do them later than the 8 week often quoted as from my research and discussion s with groups who don't vaccinate mothers immunity does not start to wane until around 12 to 14 weeks so it so very likely that there are lots of dogs out there who owners and vets think are covered but arnt or the immunity theu gain is natural immunity.as with all things you make your own choices

Mama bas 60 pounds is still higher than average for vacci check but o guess vet can charge extra if he wishes. At least it's way cheaper than so are charging for labtitre results when they can be in the hundreds

Get my quantative lab titres done at BioBest for just under £50.00 :)

Is that what the vet woudl charge or do they add their own charge in for collecting bloods.   Just to say the problem with titres is that it doesn't tale account of memory cells owhich can't be measured. So a low titre or even absence of antibodies doesn't mean no immunity

My vet doesn't charge me for venepuncture ( he is fab !)
As I use kennels I booster when titre levels drop bellow levels that are assured to give effective immune response - for my dogs thatis typically every 3 - 4 years for DHP

The main issue with vaccines and allergies is the adjuvants. 

As the virus component is modified, so as not to produce disease something is needed to simulate amore aggressive immune response.

Vets to be honest know diddly squat about immunology, and their information is only what the vaccine manufacturers give them.

Dr Schultz on the other hand is an acknowledged expert.

Shultz say's if you get a positive result then the dog is immune, low levels just show that the dogs immune system has not been challenged by that disease. Also if you are giving yearly DHP and Lepto vaccinations  these will compromise the immune system and make it less able to respond if the dog comes into contact with a disease.

I understand the theory of memory cells and low titres do no necessarily result in no imunity however if you use kennels or day care as I do the licence demands vaccine or proof of immunity. The labs will not guarantee immunity if titre fall below set parameters and this has typically occurred in mine every third to forth year which corresponds to recommended vaccination protocols for DHP every three years

Not an issue for me as I can't afford kennels, so never need to prove them.

In Response to Brainless

> Dr Schultz on the other hand is an acknowledged expert

i've been hearing a lot about Dr Schultz so decided to check him out. it's hard to trust everything you read on the internet, but i did find this youtube video of him talking about vaccinations (i like video's cause you're guaranteed to be hearing someones exact words and you can also judge how much of a quack they may or may not be):

https://youtu.be/L1Xd5ghnlJ4

i can appreciate why people would want to listen to Dr Schultz - he does appear to know what he's talking about.

in the video Dr Schultz recommends getting your puppy vaccinated with the core vaccines from 8-10 weeks and then a second 2-4 weeks later with a booster at 1 year old. BUT! for Dr Schultz the core vaccinations are just the DHP ones (Canine Distemper (D) Hepatitis (H) & Parvovirus (P)).

Dr Schultz doesn't include Leptospirosis as a core vaccine.

so whats the difference between Leptospirosis and the other 3 that the Kennel Club recommend getting? from wikipedia it looks like Leptospirosis is an infection whereas the other 3 are viral diseases.

Leptospirosis is also the only one that needs to be done every year... and in Dr Schultz's opinion it's more likely to cause problems than the other main 3 (which seems to be because of the adjuvants as Brainless said earlier)

Brainless - what do you do about Leptospirosis? do you not protect for it? or do you think the immunisation lasts longer than the 1 year it says it does?

Lepto is a poor vaccine at best, often only gives brief protection and only for two or four serovars, which may not even be those prevalent, so I don't bother to booster.

Article on lack of efficacy due to the number of serovars: http://dr-jordan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Leptospirosis-update-by-Dr.-Jordan-published-in-Dogs-naturally-2014.pdf

Humans are not vaccinated for it (or Veils disease) even those working in the occupations/sports likely to expose them, and can be treated.

Also:  http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Leptomania-10052-Jordan.asp and http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/leptospirosis-vaccine/ and

Note anyone sending a puppy to Australia must not vaccinate for lepto, as titre tests will show up positive whether a dog is infected or vaccinated, and dogs with positive titres will not be imported.

I have working gundogs that swim and come into contact with rats regularly.  I use lepto annual and would only omit if I havpd a dog with any sort of immune issue.
I have stayed with lepto 2 due to initial concerns re lepto 4. There are a number of disease causing strains of lepto but in the dog only four are an issue and of those two are main causes of illness. Earlier this year digs in Briatol area were falling ill due to lepto so it is not a disease of I agination by any means BUT it is not a core vaccine and can be omitted if you wish.

When vaccinating pups I do DHP first and only starts lepto  a mo tn after DHP completed. NEVER had any sort of vaccine reaction and vaccinate annual for lepto from puppyhood to death.

It's really a  risk assessment.  My dogs steer clear of water like the devil, and also these days are mainly lead walked.

thank you for the info and links Brainless - really appreciate you sharing your experiences. and its useful to know that your dogs avoiding water may be at least part of the reason you avoid the lepto vaccine.

and thank you too klb for sharing your experiences. that's interesting that you only start lepto vaccines a month after the DHP ones have been completed... which if you are vaccinating at 12 and then 16 weeks as you said earlier means you wouldn't be starting lepto vaccines until the dogs are around 20 weeks old, right? i believe the lepto protocol requires 2 lots of the lepto vaccines 2 weeks apart with onset of immunisation expected a week after the 2nd jab, in which case your dogs wouldn't be covered by the vaccine until they were 23 weeks old. do you make any kind of effort to avoid letting the dogs near water prior to 23 weeks? i can see on your profile that you breed GSPs; the puppy i am getting is a Vizsla, so i'm keen to hear any and all advice on gundogs!

the first information i got on vaccines was this link from the Kennel Club: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/106031/vaccinationas.rtf. based on reading this i didn't understand that the vaccine for Leptospirosis was any different to the ones for Canine Distemper, Hepatitis & Parvovirus.

but now that i've learnt that Leptospirosis is very different to Canine Distemper, Hepatitis & Parvovirus i've done some more research. will pop below what i found in case it ends up being useful to anyone in the future reading this thread:

First off from the The World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) (which is the resource my local vet said they go by):
http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA_OwnerGuidelines_September2010.pdf
* The MLV CDV and rCDV, as well as the MLV CPV-2 and CAV-2 vaccines can provide up to a lifetime of immunity when one or, preferably, two doses are given in the absence of MDA. For the core vaccines (CDV, CPV-2, CAV-2), the VGG recommends revaccination at 1 year of age or 1 year after the puppy series ends, then not more often than every 3 years. For rabies, revaccination should be at 1 year or less and then every 3 years or less, depending on local regulations. In contrast to the long (many years) DOI for the core vaccines, the optional (noncore) vaccines generally provide only 1 year or less DOI. Also, unlike the core vaccines that are often 99% effective when the animal is properly immunized, many of the non-core vaccines have an efficacy of 70% or less.
* The non-core vaccines can be started before or after completion of the core vaccines. Ideally the non-core vaccines would be given only when needed, starting two or more weeks after completion of the core viral vaccines. Many, but not all, non-core vaccines (e.g. those that protect from leptospirosis or borreliosis [Lyme disease]) require two doses administered 2 – 4 weeks apart because they are non- infectious (killed/inactivated) vaccines. In contrast to the core vaccines, which have a long DOI, most of the non-core vaccines must be given annually and sometimes more often for animals at very high risk of disease.

NB:
MLV = Modified Live Vaccine
CDV = Canine Distemper Virus
rCDV = recombinant Canine Distemper Vaccine
CPV-1 = Canine ParvoVirus type 1 (discovered in 1967 in Germany)
CPV-2 = Canine ParvoVirus type 2 (disease commonly associated with the parvovirus since its mutation from CPV-1 in the 1970s)
CAV-1 = Canine AdenoVirus type 1 (Infectious canine hepatitis caused by canine adenovirus type-1)
CAV-2 = Canine AdenoVirus type 2 (similar enough to CAV-1 that vaccine for one creates immunity for both. CAV-2 vaccine apparently less likely to cause side effects than CAV-1 vaccine)
MDA = Maternally Derived Antibodies
DOI = Duration Of Immunity

and some further research, although the quality of these references may or may not be questionable:

http://www.iwsca.org/Puppy%20Packet/Health%20Info/Vaccination/Vaccine%20101%20-%20R%20Schultz.doc
* Non-core vaccinations include para-influenza, Bordetella bronchiseptica (kennel cough), Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme), and leptospirosis. These vaccines should be administered only to dogs whose geographical location, local environment, or lifestyle places them at risk of contracting each of the specific infections.
* Interestingly, as opposed to the viral vaccines, immunity from bordetella and lepto vaccines often lasts less than one year because they are bacterial diseases. And neither actually prevents the disease, but rather manages the disease and its severity. Lepto vaccines are the most reactogenic of all the vaccines, even more so than the rabies vaccines.
* Coronavirus (CCV) and giardia vaccines are not recommended, as the 2006 AAHA Guidelines note, “Prevalence of clinical cases of confirmed CCV disease does not justify vaccination.”
* If vaccinating a puppy with non-core vaccines, in general, with the exception of intranasal bordetella, which can be given with the core vaccines, the viral vaccinations should be given first, and the bacterials should not be mixed.

http://www.abrl.org/files/vaccinesWDJ0808.pdf
* repeats the from the link above...
* Vaccines themselves do not cause autoimmune disease, but in genetically predisposed animals they may trigger autoimmune responses followed by disease – as can any infection, drug, or a variety of other factors.

http://www.shalako.com/vaccine.htm
* Multiple components in vaccines compete with each other for the immune system and result in lesser immunity for each individual disease as well as increasing the risk of a reaction. Canine Corona Virus is only a disease of puppies. It is rare, self limiting (dogs get well in 3 days without treatment).   Cornell & TexaA&M have only diagnosed one case each in the last 7 years. Corona virus does not cause disease in adult dogs. Leptospirosis vaccine is a common cause of adverse reactions in dogs. Most of the clinical cases of lepto reported in dogs in the US are caused by serovars (or types) grippotyphosa and bratsilvia. The vaccines contain different serovaars eanicola and ictohemorrhagica. Cross protection is not provided and  protection is short lived. Lepto vaccine is immuno-supressive to puppies less than 16 weeks.

http://www.lantanaatlantis.com/images/Checkup/VaccinationRecommendationsDogs.pdf
* see table re risks and suggested vaccination schedule

Yes I have GSP
I do take my pups out and about but I don't take them swimming until started lepto
Obviously you can't eliminate all risk but as the youngsters are only out short periods, off lead exercise is in areas where I can avoid standing water and ditches I feel this is a better compromise to aviod stressing a pups immune system with the DHP and lepto together.  I do risk some introduction to fast shallow running water - we have a great hill stream that is shallow to encourage paddling and I use canine swimming pools for introduction to swimming

As I travel to Europe I also do rabies but don't start this until  minimum of 6mths