Hi all,

I am new to this forum but have been reading it online as a non-member looking for posts that are similar to my query but thought joining might be easier!

My bitch Frankie is on day 61 of pregnancy (counting from the second mating).

We have everything set up in preparation but as of yet - her temperature has not dropped (it has varied from 37.7-37.1 but stays within that bracket) she is not being overly clingy/elusive, until last night there has been no digging, her appetite certainly hasn't dropped and apart from looking a little fed up at times she hasn't changed at all.

Last night I noticed she started pawing at the carpet in the middle of the night. So, I was wondering if anyone could answer a few questions for me.

When do you think that she will enter the first stage of labour? We are watching her closely when she goes out to the toilet and have noticed she has dug a hole outside behind a shrub. So keeping a close eye on her to check that isn't where she is planning to have her pups!

Also- what is everyone's view on the umbilical cord? I bought a whelping kit online that came with small plastic clamps but others have recommended dental floss and scissors? Or does this not matter? It is mine and her first litters so am a little wary to let nature take its course and let her do it as not sure when to intervene if she goes a little too far/rough with it?

Sorry the post is a little ambitious - guess I am just getting nervous. Please - any tips are greatly appreciated!! Also, if she didn't go into whelp by Tuesday - how long before contacting the vet?

Many thanks

Hiya,

How many days is Frankie from the first mating and what size of breed is she? Are puppies moving about much?

I don't use any sort of clamp if a bitch needs help with the placenta. I push the blood down the cord back towards the pups body, hold it between my fingers and thumb and then cut. Not this this method is necessarily better, it's just the way I do it.

Hi,

She is a medium sized breed (about 14 inches to the shoulder) are we allowed to say what breed on here?

She will be on day 63 today from the first mating although we have been going from the second as she seemed a lot more 'ready' the second time round - actively moving tail to the side etc.

When counting days do you count the day of mating as day 1? Or the day after? My numbers count the day of mating.

Yesterday was the first day I have been able to both see and feel movement - quite a lot of movement really - some quite far down and some in between the hind legs.

Others have said about pushing the blood up and leaving. Seems like a safer way of replicating what the bitch would do.

Thanks for replying :-)

Also, this being my first litter I am a little worried that if she drops in the middle of the night - will it wake me up?? She is sleeping in her crate in my room but cautious that I will sleep through the whole thing if she doesn't show any signs of labour before hand?

Sorry to ask a series of amateur questions I am just cautious that I would like to do everything properly to ensure Frankie and her pups safety!

Thanks again

Counting from the first day of mating is useful information for you and your vets. I wouldn't discount that first mating, if she stood for the male she may have been fertile, and you don't want to put yourself in the position of ignoring a potentially overdue pregnancy.

Having said that, common sense dictates that chances are that she took late and if she isn't in distress don't worry too much at this stage. If she starts panting, digging and having contractions and nothing happens after a few hours then you'll want to seek advice.

The first stage of labour usually takes some time and you'll know something is up so I doubt you'll sleep through it on your nerves, as you are. I take my bitches into bed with me though so I feel any restlessness/digging/contractions.

I guess we all have our preferred methods!!   I count from the first mating, bearing in mind conception may not have taken place immediately.   With mine, and they quite often went into uterine inertia - Bassets .... ouch mum, shut down - I didn't leave them over by more than 2 days.   So often the pups (especially with small litters) just sit growing bigger by the day and making a C.Section more likely to be needed.    With mine, they might be moving around lots up to the final day or two at which point they usually went quiet which until I saw this a few time, frightened me to death.  So by around 2 days over and nothing significant going on, I was off to my vet who quite often would give a shot to get things moving - be warned, sometimes a car trip will do the same so take a box with a warm pad and blankets in it, and your whelping gear - and friend to watch your bitch.  And be ready to pull over!

I had mine sleeping not in a crate, but in their whelping box from the final week, with me in there to be sure I was right there when things kicked off - important as you shouldn't leave her pushing hard for much over 1 hour without seeing a puppy delivered.  Each delivery.   There's no point letting her get exhausted if she's in need of professional help.   If you use a crate, you can't 'get in there' to assist.

With the umbilical cords, I preferred to tear, not cut, more like the bitch would do.   You'll have to see how good she is - some will bite way too close causing damage.  And if she has an incorrect bite, nipping the cord may be next to impossible too.

I'm sure you know about providing good external heating as new born puppies can't regulate their own heat - and as each one arrives it will need removing when she gets working on the next one, to avoid trampling.  Between delivery, the puppies should be attached to her teats.

Now is the time to call in your mentor.

> When do you think that she will enter the first stage of labour?

What we think is irrelevant here.  We don't know your dog!    Most people would say "how long is a piece of string"

I sleep with mine from day 56.  As someone has mentioned, being in a crate is not ideal.  You may need immediate access to your bitch.  Have you sat in on a whelping of your mentors?  I wouldn't be happy doing a whelping on my own if I wasn't experienced.  Would you recognise if your bitch had inertia?  And how would you cope with a breech?  A true breech, not a pup coming back feet first?

As someone else mentions, I too would prefer to have a bitch on the bed with me and know what is going on.  Do you have a mentor to come and help and show you what to look for?  (It's far less scarey when you watch someone who knows what they're doing.)  Is your bitches breeder on hand (even if only by telephone.)  I once had a call and they actually put me on loudspeaker so I could talk them through things as it happened.  To be honest I was worried about how little they knew.  Do you have the Book of the Bitch?

Some bitches/ puppies will wake you and be quite vocal, whilst some won't. I am lucky that hubs is home and that we share the the night shift from a few days before expected delivery up until they are a couple of weeks old and I can trust that mum won't squish them (although with my latest girl, after 3 or 4 days, I trusted that she wouldn't move all night and I'd just sleep with my arm draped over her so I'd feel if she did move). I'd definitely want her at arms reach in a whelping box at absolute minimum for a week leading up to 63 days. If it wasn't for this, I'd never have known by bitch developed inertia and required an emergency section, I'd have slept through the whole thing.

Hi all,

Just wanted to thank you for your suggestions.

I have spent last night looking at the days and realised Tuesday as her 'due date' was in between her matings - so today is day 63 from her first mating and Wednesday is day 63 from her second mating which gives me a day or two more before I might need to take her in.

Her whelping area and all supplies are set up in the kitchen as this is where me and my partner spend the most time. I've put her bed (the large plastic ones)  not crate sorry, in my bedroom next to the bed filled will towels and some supplies just incase it is the middle of the night but ideally we want Frankie and pups downstairs as apart from sleeping and showering we don't stay upstairs for much time in the day. And she is a very clingy dog!

We have a mentor who has spent years breeding her breed (different to ours) but she is out of the game and has been for two years so whilst she has met me numerous times to give advice, is unsure that she can be there on the day given work commitments etc.

Looking at Frankie's behaviour she just looks fed up - can't jump on the sofa anymore or run up the stairs very fast and I am resistant to walk her. I take her out early each morning for a ten minute walk which I think she is getting fed up with. Still no drop in temperature. Today she has refused her food but is looking longingly at the cat's food?

Hopefully she will be loud enough to wake me, again she woke me up last night digging at the carpet in my room.

Regarding the umbilical cord etc it's difficult as it seems breeders who have been doing it for years all have 'their way' and could argue until the sun comes up as to which is right. I'd like to see how Frankie copes before intervening if possible but am aware of how to deal with her not doing so.

In regards to 'book of the bitch', no! I have only found this forum in the last couple of days but have seen it mentioned here a few times so I've ordered in on Amazon next day delivery so that should clear my mind about a few things.

Thank you again everyone- hopefully tonight? Or tomorrow!

>In regards to 'book of the bitch', no! I have only found this forum in the last couple of days

It is a breeders "bible"  glad you found it as I paid full price for it at PAH years ago and could have kicked myself when I saw Amazon prices.  You are bound to find something in there that you didn't know.    Good Luck!

If you decide not to cut and clamp the u.cords  may I suggest that you whelp your bitch on white or very light coloured bedding. That way you will immediately spot any bleeding...fresh bright red blood is easy to spot amongst the other fluids.

I think that we have decided to use dental floss to tie the cords before cutting - just because I don't want to risk any bleeding.

Frankie wouldn't eat her food yesterday, started panting heavily around 8pm ... Took her to bed, still panting until 3am ish. Took her for a wee in the garden, back upstairs and she vomited twice. This morning has again refused her food but just had a nibble at the cat's wet food. Has taken her self off behind the cushions on the sofa this morning - still panting heavily. Now moved to the arm chair and breathing very quickly and deeply.

Hopefully second stage of labour will start today/tonight!

Ooooh exciting! Sounds like it could be any time now

More digging, panting, refusing of food. She has decided to whelp on my brand new sofa (!!!!!!!) and it doesn't matter how many towels i put down she still wants to dig! Oh well. Trying to keep her as comfortable as possible she is not a happy dog at the minute. Lying there and heavily breathing feel as though it could start any minute!

Oh no about the sofa but that's so exciting!! Could be today then. Good luck hope it all goes smoothly. Xx

I'm guessing you're busy, but any updates?

Well at 18:04 Frankie delivered her first pup no issues she was fantastic. 18:10 the next pup came out and at 20:20 we are on four. Still more in there but she is having a rest. She did the cords herself - some are quite short at 2cm ish- is this a problem? Bleeding from them has stopped but just worried. Didn't want to intervene as she was doing everything herself.

Also, first 2 pups nursed for a couple of minutes but as mum seemed quite unsettled have put them in a warm bed next to her which she's fine with. Can they go the whole whelping without nursing as bit worried that were 2 hours in since first pup and seems a few more to go?

Many thanks will keep you updated!

Still no sign of number 5 and very heavy breathing! Hopefully soon!

Make sure they all suckle in their first hour to ensure they get the colostrum essential for the kick start to their immunity.

Suckling also instigates better contractions.

Yeah all latched on now as she is more chilled and staying still. Hopefully this will help. She keeps taking water in between births which is good but no sign of any placentas yet? She is a very clean dog with her seasons etc and keeps going down below for a good session so wondering if she's eating them without us seeing them come out?

> keeps going down below for a good session so wondering if she's eating them without us seeing them come out?

Highly likely.  I had one bitch where I had tried to limit exactly how many she ate.  Which naturally made them a prized possession and she wasn't letting me have them.  No way.    You can't always beat them to it, but I do allow eating of them, just try to limit them.  I bet your girl has been gobbling them down.

Well done and congratulations

Most likely she is eating them. I find they tend to eat them whilst frantically licking when the next water bag bursts. I never stop them eating them..... It does make them a bit loose but it's natures way of making her stools easier to pass after whelping without straining.... You may also find she doesn't have a huge appetite for a day or two after eating them,again natures way of providing nutrients. I usually see an increase in appetite by day 2 or 3.

Good luck.

Yeah I'd say so. More preferable though than my slovenly lot who bleed all over the place in season and ignore it, then give birth, look at their puppies and scarper, leaving me with pup, placenta and all

Congrats and good luck with the next few!

Still no sign of number 5. Mum seems more interested in constantly licking pups than letting them suckle. Still going down below for 'something'

It's great she is fussing them,let her bond. You may well get a lull in births..... I find usually half way through and very often a long lull before last pup.

2 cm cords sound ideal..... Any longer and I find the bitch will keep working on it so I trim it.

She isn't straining just panting a little and licking her pups. How long should I leave her in between giving birth before starting to worry?

I have found that mine tend to slow from at least one pup per hour to one every 2 or 3 hours. If she is not contracting and seems fairly settled I wouldn't worry.  Taking her for a walk around the garden for a wee helps to move pups  can you feel more pups or did you scan numbers?

Nope no scan just felt her tummy. Number 5 has just popped out. Can still feel more in her! Letting them suckle in between but she does keep moving. She's worrying me with her back legs as not a light dog!

I don't remove pups just keep them on a heat pad, and move them away so they don't get wet again when next pup being born.  My girls would get very upset if pups moved elsewhere.

I also keep them plugged onto milkbar, it helps with getting next pups moving.

They are in a heated basket next to mum which she seems fine with. Keeps leaning over to have a good lick etc. still there there are a couple more to come hope things progress a little quicker than last pup!

6 now all suckling away!

Still going... 8 pups!

And at 04:30am and 8 puppies later I am finally climbing into bed (the floor next to the whelping box) and relaxing. Can I sleep for a few hours... I do hope so. Keep checking on her all seems to be going well I just hope no accidents :/

Congratulations! I saw a litter born for the first time recently, it was amazing and terrifying all at the same time. Well done both of you.

Although Ive never wanted to breed a dog (too scared something would go wrong apart from everything else), I would love to see a litter born. Must be an amazing thing to see.
Congratulations on your new arrivals.

Congratulations:)

She may well keep digging her bed for a few days. It's caused by pain as she contracts back down,just watch pups don't get trapped under bedding or whizzed around like lottery balls. It is a pain but doesn't usually last longer than a few days.

All well this morning. Although I did notice pups have moved back onto the sofa from their lovely whelping box (wouldn't mind but only a couple of months old!! Lol).

Chuffed to bits with Frankie she did everything herself and brilliantly, she is nursing pups, licking their back ends. Couldn't ask for more from her. Really impressed.

Just wolfed down some wet puppy food so going to nip to the shop in a minute to buy some nice tasty food to keep her going! Any suggestions? I was thinking chicken and rice or something along those lines?

Also, when does mum need to go to the vets to get checked over? I'm struggling to get her outside for a wee this morning so it might be a little bit of a task! Also, do pups have to go in for a check up right away? They are so tiny the last place I want to take them is the vets!

Thank you all for your advice, before, during and now after the whelping it has been invaluable and helped me to remain calm! Really appreciate it.

If everything is fine with Mum and pups I would not go near the vets, with the risk of bringing something back, that's where sick dogs are.

The puppies do need to be on a whelping box - how did they get onto the sofa?    Also I'm slightly concerned about the placenta.   If you didn't see any, and although she might have consumed them, I'd be more inclined to have your vet give her a shot to clear out anything she could have inside before she starts an infection.   And if you are a novice (forgive me, I haven't checked back) it might be worth while having a vet check the puppies for abnormalities you might have missed.   I know how you feel re the risk of infection, and in that, perhaps your vet might come out rather than having to take her in .... with 8 puppies to 'sell', you can settle up with him later on!!    I didn't like to let mine consume too many placenta as they do make mum loose and although this was needed in the wild dog to sustain mum until she could get out to hunt and leave her litter, it's not necessary with the domesticated dog really.

For future reference, although with our low-slung breed we had to be careful, I'd leave the puppies nursing, which stimulates the contractions, for as long as I could before things got serious with the next delivery, using a box with a warm pad in the whelping box so mum wasn't distressed having the puppies moved right away.   Sounds like you've had a busy few hours - so well done all.

Food?   Her normal top quality food, with if you like some added breast of chicken, poached.   I gave mum scrambled egg, cottage cheese and anything else she fancied.  I'd get her out of the box to eat, and to attend to biz - she may be reluctant but if somebody takes her off out on a lead, it will give you a chance to do a good clean up, change bedding, weigh the pups and otherwise check them over.    I hope you have somebody right there to keep a quiet eye on things, if you need to pop out!

Re going to the vet - if he won't come out - we'd put all the puppies in a box on a heat pad with lots of towels or blankets on top to keep them warm - and make sure they were topped up before leaving for the vet's office.   Have the box alongside mum to keep her calm.   And have somebody either drive you, or be with you for the journey.

It is best for the puppies if you can keep them in the whelping box, my girl was a baggage about moving her pups to where she wanted them but they need to be kept warm at this stage.

With her last litter we knew she had retained some placentas so the vet gave her an injection to expel the rest. I'd call your vet to get their advice. My vet also recommended a daily calcium tablet while she was feeding the litter.

With my girl we fed her whatever she wanted. Puppy kibble, minced beef (frozen then defrosted), goats milk, rice pudding, pilchards and puppy mousse. Little and often, she was on 6 meals a day in the beginning.

Congrats! Hetty had hers on Monday night, only 3 for us though. She did try to have them down the side of the sofa but seemed content with the whelping box once things got going. Like your girl, she spent the first day more interested in licking them and then tucking them safely under her chest than feeding them, so I was constantly fishing them out and putting them back by her tummy. Today she seems much more settled and is getting the hang of lying on her side for them. I did take her to the vet for a jab as we'd had a dead puppy and I hadn't seen a placenta for that one, though there was one for the other 3 (she ate 2 and I took the other away as at that stage I didn't know how many more we were expecting). Took hubby with me so he could wait in the car until the waiting room was clear and we could carry them straight in, that way the vet could check for cleft palates etc. She's eating chicken, scrambled egg, puppy food, beef mince, you name it!

Congrats Lucy too.  Hope you got sex markings you hoped for and that you will have a real cracker to keep.

Congratulations on your litter Lucy!

Rang the vet yesterday she said to bring Frankie and pups in for a check so in the box they went along with towels and a heat pad. Frankie was a bit stressed at first but once we were in the car she settled. Vets were really good said we could stay in car until could walk straight through to be seen.

Pups checked over, all healthy and strong which is good news. No cleft pallets or dew claws etc. Frankie doing well hasn't kept any placentas or unborn pups.

Vet did say she had produced a lot of milk but as it's quite a big litter it shouldn't be a problem. She said to keep an eye out for any nipples that seem hotter or more red than the rest.

Came down this morning at 6am (no one can stay up with pups all night as well as be here all day so best we can do is stay up till 2 and wake up at 6) and she has moved them back into the whelping box. Really hope this is where we are going to stay now. Resistant to move them for her as don't want to stress her out.

Asked to go to the toilet this morning, gave her some food. Just about to weigh pups as one is quite a bit smaller than the rest so keeping our eye on him in particular.

Thanks all for advice.

Last question- does anyone know how long after whelping we should wait before getting her spayed? Her next season will be February but pups are due to leave around end of December. Should we wait until then and do it just after they all go?

Came down this morning at 6am (no one can stay up with pups all night as well as be here all day so best we can do is stay up till 2 and wake up at 6
I do, I have a camp bed by the box and sleep next to the litter for at least 3 weeks if not longer
Sleep deprivation is just part of being a careful breeder. I also have a husband to look after and a job so I arrange shifts to correspond with Hubbies days and I work nights while he is home and if there is ever a clash I pay a well trusted sitter to stay with Mum and the pups. By the end of the 8 weeks I am like a zombie but its worth it.
Aileen

Hi Aileen. We are sleeping next to mum and pups but everyone needs some shut eye for a couple of hours.

Thanks

Congrats on your new additions. Glad all went well too :-) day 59 for us now. Xx

> Came down this morning at 6am (no one can stay up with pups all night as well as be here all day so best we can do is stay up till 2 and wake up at 6)

Yes they do. I am with mum and pups 24/7 for the first week at least, possibly catnappin or grabbing an hour when hubby is around.
How are you keeping puppies warm if she is moving them all the time.

With my first c section bitch I was up continuously for 48 hours prior to delivery and then the solid 24 hours after section (I was concerned she wasn't progressing as she should have- which became evident eventually)... 3 days without even 2 minutes of napping. I then swapped with hubs for about 6 hours sleep and did it again for another couple of nights, all whilst battling morning sickness and juggling an 11 month old baby. I would not feel comfortable (particularly as a first time mum) leaving the babies alone with mum, even to go to the toilet. Even the best of mums can be clumsy and wipe out a whole litter in 2 minutes. Not to mention if one newborn gets lost and fails to feed for 6 hours, blood sugar can drop and your pup fade.

> does anyone know how long after whelping we should wait before getting her spayed?

You need to wait until the milk has completely dried up, and at least two month before their next season, which is often delayed by a  few weeks anyway.. 

I normally have mine spayed 11 - 12 weeks after their last litter.