I'm trying to decide how to approach getting to the stud at the right time.  Getting there will involve a 5hr ferry and then a 2hr50min drive, then after the mating I'm guessing we'll have to stay in the area a couple of days to get our 2nd mating offered 48hrs later - and come back again.

Questions:

1.  If we progesterone test, on what day do people start testing?  There seems some variation in this, with some people saying to start very early so you know what levels you're starting with, other people saying you'll waste lots of money starting too early and to wait till day 8 or 9.  Thoughts?

2.  If we progesterone test, is it going to give us enough notice to get there in time?  (Barbara, I know you went to the US for a breeding once - presumably, what with the booking of flights etc, you couldn't wait for the progesterone results to go??  How did you approach that, did you just go over for the whole time and stay with the stud owner?)

3.  Should we just go for the old-fashioned approach of days 10/11 and 13/14?  That would make travel plans much easier, as we could organise as soon as she comes into season.

4.  I know the cost of progesterone testing depends on how many tests your dog needs, but can people say roughly what the total cost was, for them?  And how many tests their dog ended up needing?

5.  Since we live on an island, our post often takes a bit longer to the mainland.  I am thinking there's a chance my vets is going to offer me their inhouse pre-mate testing based on colour comparison charts kinda thing, partly for that reason.  Should I strenuously resist this and insist on Idexx?  Presumably there is Special Delivery and FedEx even... although that is going to add to the cost quite a bit.  If the choice comes down to:  In-house premate testing or no testing, should I go with in-house?  Is that better than nothing, or is it likely just to confuse us and are we better just going for average days of the season?  I don't think any of the vets here necessarily has great experience with reproduction so I am reluctant to entrust anything subjective to their interpretation...

6.  Lastly, how do they do the blood draws for the progesterone tests?  Is it taken from the neck, as with the old Pet Passport rabies titre testing?  Or is it a leg?  So I can do some training work on restraint positions and people fiddling with the area...

Thanks and sorry for all the questions.  I just want to get it all right.

Not to rain on your parade, so to speak, but wouldn't it be easier to get the stud owner to send some frozen (or even maybe fresh) semen over to you?

We took our Daisy to Sweden some years ago - a long trip, probably longer than you're planning, and it really threw her whole season, and I don't think she ever ovulated - in spite of blood tests before, and setting sail when ovulation appeared imminent.   She just seemed to dry up, and wouldn't stand for the dog.     I suppose she was particularly sensitive to the upheaval.

But in answer to your question, if you are going to travel, I personally would get a baseline reading at around 6-7 days assuming she has had 'normal' timing in the past.      Then you can extrapolate the approx day of ovulation (the reading doubling every other day).     I think you have to try to use Idexx - the in-house premate isn't accurate enough).    That will give you an idea of when to book a ferry.           Then take a reading  when Idexx reckons ovulation in imminent, and set sail.

Hope all goes well for you, and the bloods don't need reading over a weekend!

Good luck

Jo

Thanks Jo.  If I understand the KC rules on AI, though, I can't use AI if a stud is alive and resident in the UK, as this stud is?  (I do have other concerns about AI, like it requires sedation and also it must seem like a miraculous conception especially for a maiden bitch, to suddenly be pregnant without a mating, but maybe that's not an issue for dogs!)

Our dogs are very used to travelling on the ferry and this female we'd be breeding came over for hip and elbow scoring, and training trips twice a year with us.  They just sleep in the car during the crossing.  So I'm hoping it won't be a big upheaval - although maybe good to wait till ovulation is confirmed(?) by bloods and then travel - once the eggs are released, they're there and no stress etc can un-release them, right?  (I think I have like 3-4 days after ovulation to get there, is that right?)

It's not a huge problem to book a ferry at the last minute, as usually there is room.  It's more just rescheduling my entire life and cancelling everything - and being able to do that with 10 days notice rather than just 'go now' kind of notice!

I  have traveled to germany from Northern England to mate a bitch and did my timing via progesterones
I planned my route and timed the journey found suitable hotels to stay at so when the blood said go I had no planning as such to do - just a few bookings online

I started testing day 5 as I wanted to plot rise in progesterones as this gives more accurate picture of what is happening I retested at 2-3 day intervals until progesterone reached 2ng which is approx the point when LH surge occurs. Most bitches will ovulate approx 24 hrs after LH surge and ideally  this should be verified by further test 24 hrs later to demonstrate progesterone of 5ng or above

I did a blood draw earły morning day after LH surge and then set off to get as far as south coast ( estimated day of ovulation ) I had my blood result confirming ovulation that night.
Ovulation plus 1 - crossed channel and drove up to Northern Germany
Ovulation plus 2 - mating

I did just one mating so traveled home Ovulation plus 3
Result Six strapping pups

My vet prefers to draw blood at neck

Brilliant info thanks klb

Any other experiences welcome!

Am I right that there's a chance a bitch could look like she's going to ovulate but then in the end, not? So they say you should test afterwards to make sure ovulation actually happened? Did you do that and if not, why not? (You were away from home?)

> 2.  If we progesterone test, is it going to give us enough notice to get there in time?  (Barbara, I know you went to the US for a breeding once - presumably, what with the booking of flights etc, you couldn't wait for the progesterone results to go??  How did you approach that, did you just go over for the whole time and stay with the stud owner?)<br />

Yes stayed with stud owner.

Actually done this twice and went on day 12 to Finland and day 10 to USA.

As airlines normally want two week notice I had to book the first day of season.

With the Finnish one I stayed a week, but having since had a bitch stand very late, went for 10 days with the US trip to basically be there to day 21.

> 1.  If we progesterone test, on what day do people start testing?  There seems some variation in this, with some people saying to start very early so you know what levels you're starting with, other people saying you'll waste lots of money starting too early and to wait till day 8 or 9.  Thoughts?<br />

Both mine (mother then daughter) were maidens, but I went by average for my breed that is rarely ready before day 14,  so only time I ever progesterone tested I did first one day 10, then day 12 and 13 and finally got an ovulated reading day 14 using the in house premate kits.  Would never put a bitch through unnecessary blood draws if there is any way the bitch can stay with or near the stud.

3.  Should we just go for the old-fashioned approach of days 10/11 and 13/14?  That would make travel plans much easier, as we could organise as soon as she comes into season.

I'd go two days before that bitch or your average bitch in your breed is ready and stay for at least a week.

Thanks Barbara, that's great.  On what days did your girls actually mate, if ovulated/ready was day 14?

In my breed, what seems to be offered by stud dog owners is 2 matings, 48hrs apart.  I've had a provisional 'yes' from the stud dog owner (of SD2 Clear stud!), but am waiting to hear full details of how it works with her - she is away competing at the moment.  But I anticipate it being this way, as every website I've looked at when perusing studs, offers things this way when it comes to stud services.  So I don't think I can stay there for a week with the stud... or have more than 2 matings.

I don't like the idea of taking a bitch in season to the vets repeatedly for the blood draws... I wish there was some test owners could do themselves which was reliable.  Someone needs to invent one!

Did you do herpes jabs as well?  (That might be a separate thread!).

As we had a plotted classic rise in progesterone from pro oestrus levels to LH surge and then jump to ovulation levels I didn't test beyond that as already on route to stud.
It is possible that a bitch may hover about at LH surge levels for a while and never ovulate hence recommendation for testing until you get a minimum of 5ng or higher
I had previously progesterone tested this bitch for AI and she followed very similar progression when taking her to Germany

Always use the Hepres vaccine

In my breed if the bitch is resident then matings aren't rationed, but studs in my breed don't get many opportunities to mate in their lives.

The 48 hours apart thing is fine if you have to travel each time.  Three days on the trot is also good.  Old breeders say to mate the bitch until she signals she won't stand any more, as this ensures an over eager stud, or a floosy of a bitch didn't stand too early.

The one that went to Finland was eager to mate days 13 and 14, but the stud would not oblige (more interested in fussing with me), and he mated her on days 15 to 17, and my flight home was day 18.  She whelped 61 days from first mating a larger than average litter of 8 (we lost one).  This suggests she ovulated on day 13, but the experienced stud would not mate her until the eggs were ripe and for two days after (so ideal timing on his part).

The US one bitch was mated days 14,16,  and 18, and whelped 65 days from first mating suggesting she didn't ovulate until day 16 and eggs were ripe the day of last mating and we got a litter of 5 (slightly smaller litter size of just under 6), so stud was a bit over eager.

Thanks Barbara- and did you do the herpes jab?

One question about progesterone tests...

If I'm testing using idexx, should I travel at the lh surge when the lab says ovulation probably imminent, or should I wait for actual ovulation, then travel?

I'm guessing due to distance and delay of 24hrs for results, that if I wait for ovulation confirmed, I may be too late?

And as klb says, once you've gone & come home again, even if you retest you can't easily go back again if you then find you went too soon... So not much point testing after - what will be, will be. Right?

PS Is Idexx THE lab to use or are there others? I can't find anything on the idexx website about the tests.

Depend on how far you have to travel and how long it will take. I had to set off day after estimated LH surge due to distances involved. If you can wait until ovulation is confirmed that would be better. I don't use Iddex as my vet can get same day result via the lab he uses for other blood tests not able to be undertaken in house.
IF using Iddex you get the results 24 hrs after blood draw. You would need to factor this in to travel times as you are ovulation plus 1 when you get result thus have 1 day to get to stud if you want two matings ovulation day 2 and day4

Ask your vet which local laboratory they use for all their routine tests..you may find that they do Progesterone and you can pop it there yourself.
I do this and I get a phone call before I reach home.

1.  If we progesterone test, on what day do people start testing? 

I would start early. My bitch was tested on day 4, we left on day 7, arrived day 8 and mated her, tested again day 9 which showed she had just ovulated and mated again day 10. This was driving just short of 1900 miles to the stud dog.

4.  I know the cost of progesterone testing depends on how many tests your dog needs, but can people say roughly what the total cost was, for them?

Cost roughly £50

Lastly, how do they do the blood draws for the progesterone tests?

My vet took bloods from the neck--he had finished before she knew what was going on. The second was done in Poland, from the leg--that was extremely stressful for her, it takes longer and was fiddly so she got upset :-(

Hi there.  This is all very interesting and informative indeed, and I wish you all the best!  May I just say one thing, which is:  I have had some experience with AI, and it in no way requires sedation!  It is the easiest thing in the world.  Neither male nor female suffers in any way whatsoever.  With the female standing right in front of the male's nose during his ejaculation into a receptacle of some kind (a dry cup will do), he simply thinks he's "in there".  What she thinks, I couldn't say, except maybe "not much"!  There are chapters on AI in basically all the best books on breeding. What your regulations require, I do not, of course, know. 

I had to have sperm tests done on a male a couple of years ago, and this was performed (more than once) by the top specialist for andrology at the Animal Hospital of the University of Zuerich.  Piece of cake.  No sedation whatsoever.  Only requirement:  bring a female in heat along so he is in the mood! 

The male ejaculates into a nice, clean, DRY receptacle.  Naturally all utensils must be sterile and dry.  Take up the ejaculate into a syringe, attach a fine tube to the syringe, carefully insert into the female as far in as it can go, which is around 10 cm (she doesn't even feel it), and slowly expel the fluid into her.  Just don't have any water around anywhere, as water will kill the sperm.

Thanks for all the info everyone.

I think we are going to progesterone test.  I can't decide if we should use the herpes jab though.  I don't like the idea of vaccinating during pregnancy with anything (due to the other ingredients in the vaccine, not the vaccine itself), but I do completely understand the pro-reasoning for it too. 

It would be really good to hear from many people that they have had the jab and that all has been ok with the puppies!!!  OR - that people haven't had the jab, and have been ok too.!!!

The stud I will be using has sired 19 litters, if that influences anything in terms of whether we should get the herpes jab!

Nimue, with AI, if we could have the female standing right next to the male, then we could have a natural mating!  The problem comes with preservation of the sperm and freezing it and transporting it, and how less fertile it then is, and yes, the bitch then needs to be sedated to insert it...

Never bred a litter without vaccinating against herpies - never had a problem with pups. All whelped at good weights, all strong and fed well with in minutes of delivery. Never lost a puppy

Thanks klb, that's good to know - but I'm still worried LOL!

Oh gosh, I've been doing some more reading on past Champdogs threads, to get to hear about different people's experiences with progesterone testing, and I found threads like this:  http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=135491

IE:  Where the levels were low for a while, and then suddenly rose - so suddenly, that it was hard for people to get to the stud dog in time.  Looking at the dates dogs were bred, if these people had just gone for the average days of the season anyway, they would have been fine - but because they were waiting and waiting for blood results, they weren't...

And as we have a long way to go, that then makes me worry! 

Going to talk to our vet about it today as we have to take one of the other dogs in to have some stitches removed...

Vet says... Start testing around day 8 if she seems to be a normal girl as far as seasons go.  They can do the Idexx tests and have done this in the past no probs.

He didn't know anything about the herpes jab, but I've done some research online and I think we're going to get that too. 

This is so ridiculously stressful, decision-making.... :)

Yes, silly of me! 
I guess I got carried away by my desire to tell people who may think that AI is tantamount to animal cruelty that it is not so.  Anyhow, for whatever it was worth.....

nimue side by side fresh semen AI is not permissible under UK kennel club rules - this would ( if verified) result in pups not being Eligable for registration
AI is allowed when donor dog from UK is dead ( frozen semen ) or outside of UK with imported chilled / frozen semen but this require professional repro vet intervention.

I have attempted three AI with imported semen - no sedation needed for TCI but results with AI are poor. I have never got a bitch in whelp AI