Please be kind as I am trying to find out for my friend but I don't know all the correct dog words as although I love dogs I don't have my own. In short, my friends bitch was mated but didn't produce the required gender from the sire's owner so now they are refusing to give the number, I think called the registration number so the puppies can be with the Kennel Club, having read on here a poster maddog suggested you could find this information on the public domain, I am having no luck finding it. Has anyone registered babies without the sire's consent? I hope that makes sense Thank you

I believe they need the stud owner to agree to be able to register the litter.

If the stud owner wanted a puppy back but none meet their requirements why won't they take a stud fee instead?

They annoyed there was not the right sex so now won't sign paper or give number, friend said would pay stud fee, but the price of that keeps changing and now won't even communicate.

That sounds so wrong, and not something any respectable stud dog owner would do. 

It might be worth your friend telling the stud owner that the dog is responsible for the sex of puppies, as only he carries the 'y' chromosome, otherwise all pups would be female, so he can only be upset with his dog.


Does the stud owner belong to a breed club, might be worth reporting them.

Does your friend have a stud contract signed by the stud owner and herself. 

She could take him to the small claims court, especially if she ahs any written evidence such as emails.  After all unregistered pups are basically no better in terms of legitimacy as a crossbreed, and their value is reduced, so a claim for compensation would be relevant.

Even fi you got the dogs registration number the stud owner has to agree to the registrations, otherwise they would be cancelled.

There surely has to be more to this than meets the eye? Why would the stud dog owner leave themselves with no puppy and no stud fee?

Do they think they're not being told the truth about what they wanted being born and are trying to force the breeder's hand ... ?

Anyway, in answer to your question - the only numbers that are in the public domain are stud book numbers, which not all dogs have (they are dependent on wins). Registration numbers are not widely available - and anyway, neither number should be used without the owner's consent.

I don't know if they belong to a breed club, I will check and ask my friend if they know. My friend has spoken to the kennel club to explain the situation, if you register puppies online you need the number but no signature, they then email the male dog owner, if they disagree the kennel club will request a DNA and whoever is lying gets the bill, so really need the number, as my friend is not the liar here.

Wish I knew the answer to that one. They have seen puppies so know the sex of them all. Has not got a stud book number, checked that one.

It is normal for the stud dog owner to complete a form with the date of mating at the time of mating. Just wondering why this was not done. The KC then usually contact the stud owner when the puppies are registered to confirm. However, have to say that I was not contacted when my boys litter were registered. I find it very strange that the stud owner is not asking for a stud fee if he/she does not want a puppy.

He said he would fill out the form and post it, it never came and has been asked for many a time. Male owner did then ask for a fee and kept changing how much that was, my friend said fee is fine as I can't give you the sex you want, but now he isn't answering any contact made to sort it out, as you say, no idea why he wouldn't want his money.

> It is normal for the stud dog owner to complete a form with the date of mating at the time of mating.

Too right!  I've always been given a copy of the stud dogs' pedigree and I tend to take the registration paperwork with me to be signed on the day of the first mating.  If someone comes to me to use one of my boys normally I produce the litter registration form for them.  It's no great deal to get it printed off for them.  I ask them to bring their bitches registration certificate so that I have the correct number filled in on the form. I don't understand the spitefulness of the OP's stud dog owner.

> It is normal for the stud dog owner to complete a form with the date of mating at the time of mating. Just wondering why this was not done.

In my breed the form was usually signed after the  stud fee was paid, which was usually after the litter is born. 

In this case the stud dog owner wanted a pup, so their only surety is to not sign until after payment.

Not much my friend can do but wait until owner gets in touch, if he ever does, maybe he would rather lose a few hundred quid than have a litter registered under his dogs name, I guess we may never know why. Cannot find registration number so cannot apply. Live and learn. Thanks for your replies.

> They annoyed there was not the right sex so now won't sign paper or give number, friend said would pay stud fee, but the price of that keeps changing and now won't even communicate.

I'm not sure whether they'd help, but I'd be taking this to the Kennel Club because this is sharp practice at best.   They won't sign the registration papers (as the owner of the stud dog) because there is no puppy that they want?   Ridiculous.   So send the stud fee, by registered post.   And THEN talk to the KC!!!

Take Small claims action due to the reduction in value of an unregistered litter. 

Just the action might prompt the stud owner to provide the signed Form 1

If they keep changing stud price, how much should be sent? plus what if they cash cheque and still don't do it? The time it takes to get to court puppies will be rehomed. Friend has spoken to the kennel club, they said get the number however possible, then register puppies and let the owner of the male dispute it, which they said he is not likely to do as then he has to pay the fees for a DNA test, but we can't find a way of getting the number in the first place. My friend said, as long as they get good homes then that's what matters, but I want that number to give to them as owner is out of order!

Who is the breeder of the stud dog? If not the owners could your friend speak to them because they will have the KC reg number. Just another avenue to explore

He is the breeder of the dog unfortunately

Just a thought, has your friend put the dogs name in the MYKC tool, I am wondering if the dog may not even be KC registered?

Done that, he is registered with all the health tests.

> with all the health tests

That is so strange for someone prepared to do all the health testing yet act like this over registering a litter from his dog, which I assume having wanted one for himself, he should be proud of him producing. 

It's not like there is a limit to the number of litters a male may sire in the UK for pups to be registered.

Have you checked if he belong to the breed club/s?  People don't like to have bad press with their peers.

My friend is stumped at his behaviour, just cannot understand it, yes he was very disappointed at not getting what he wanted, but to then penalise my friend by not letting them register the puppies is plain stupid. Have been Googling like crazy and not come up with anything.

Is it worth speaking to the breed club for advice anyway?

Think anything is worth a shot at this point.

> Done that, he is registered with all the health tests.

Has he had any DNA tests done? In which case, he'll be listed under the appropriate breed complete with registration number.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/breeding-for-health/dna-screening-schemes-and-results/

I can't see why he'd do this.... If he can't have a pup surely he'd want the stud fee.....it doesn't make sense.

OMG, just looked at that and I have not got a clue what I am looking at lol   dog has BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme and BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme, if that helps

But I have found out this is not the first time he's done it.

> OMG, just looked at that and I have not got a clue what I am looking at lol   dog has BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme and BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme, if that helps

Ah that's a shame, he needs to have had one of the DNA tests e.g. PRA to get the number via that route.

Damn!  I can see I'm never going to get this number. If I had the same breed dog I'd be saying just say he is the dad....don't shoot me for that suggestion....it is so frustrating that this guy can just do this.

Has he had any DNA tests done? In which case, he'll be listed under the appropriate breed complete with registration number.


Thanks for that, had no idea this existed! Nice to be able to look up full results for a breed without having to search for a particular dog.

I find googling for the pages you want on KC site works best, as their own search facility is abominable

Probably one of the most useful starting pages for looking up health stuff http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/vets-researchers/publications-statistics-and-health-results/

If he has had is hips and eyes done did you friend not ask for copies of his certificates? Those would have the reg number on. However unless the KC allready had his dogs DNA on file would he likely not just take a swab from a different male when the KC asks for one?

Has the stud owner seen the puppies? From what's been Said I'd asume the stud owner doesn't think the pups are good quality so now doesn't want them under his boys name.

> Has the stud owner seen the puppies? From what's been Said I'd asume the stud owner doesn't think the pups are good quality so now doesn't want them under his boys name.

Could be but does that give him the right to withhold his signature on the litter registration form?   It's rather shutting the stable door - he should have done his research re what this combination MIGHT produce before agreeing to allow his dog to be used.   Most people who cared about what their stud dog was involved in producing, potentially, would have the courage to turn down a stud enquiry.

I guess this is another case that proves having it all in writing (stud agreement) is always best.

Dog was looked up before even considering him that he'd had his tests and they were ok, so owner didn't see it necessary to show copies, even though he said he would. Puppies are of very good breeding, that is not the issue at all, they have been seen by a few long term breeders now and have said what a shame as they would do well.

Even if you do find the number somehow, won't he simply refuse permission, when the Kennel Club contact him for confirmation of the mating? Agree with other comments, it just makes no sense that he won't accept a stud fee, awful situation!

I still say threaten with Court action through small claims court for devaluing the puppies.

Kennel Club said if the number could be found and submitted online they would email him, if he still said no then they would tell him to have DNA test done and as it would come back that his dog is the dad he would foot the bill so unlikely to still continue to say no, this way no signature is required, but I am doubtful I am going to find it. My friend doesn't want court action, would rather sell them with no papers to nice homes, me on the other is flipping annoyed with this man!

My argument is, if my friend can give evry detail they want but this damn number, why can they just not go through the same process............

> My friend doesn't want court action, would rather sell them with no papers to nice home

She can still (may have to) do this but she should take him to small claims for the loss of value of the pusp, just the threat might be enough to get him to play ball.

I would, but cannot see my friend doing it, doesn't like any confrontation or upset.

and friend is a he lol

You dint have to attend small claims I am pretty sure it can be done by papaerwork

Why not find the puppies good homes and rack this up to experience?

> Could be but does that give him the right to withhold his signature on the litter registration form?

Don't get me wrong I don't think it's right at all, but I've heard of people doing it, also with not registering pups in a litter to their own girls so pups they don't like won't have their dogs names behind them. Was just offering it as a possible as to why this stud owner was refusing a fee based on what the op has said has happened.

Having chatted to others which have suffered the same fate with the same guy, it would appear it is purely a control issue which this owner thrives on. He doesn't need the stud fee as it very well off. My friend is just going to home puppies as unregistered and will probably never do this again as it has totally knocked him. I am still livid with this man, and just as mad with the kennel club which allows it to happen. Thank for all your replies and suggestions but I can't see what else I can do to help him get the number.

> and just as mad with the kennel club which allows it to happen.

The KC have no control over this, he has broken contracts, only court action can alter this, and I assume nothing is in writing which makes it his word against his, unless these other people back him.

How does he know this ahs happened before and if so why did they sue the dog without safeguards?

If they have just found this out, then I suggest they go to the breed clubs and kick up a stink.

I have been on other forums and people have PM'd me as it sounded like a situation they had been in. They told me the guy's name and it is the same one.  The kennel Club could allow the registration pending email to the dog owner, then the ball could get rolling on having DNA test done to prove his dog is the dad. Other people have told me the Kennel Club have allowed registration using their dog number and it wasn't even their dog, but by the time they were notified the papers had already gone out. So they allow that but not legit claims.

Point is that if he objects the registrations would be cancelled, he doesn't have to agree to DNA his dog.

If every time someone stole a dogs ID to register a litter, the stud owner had to pay for DNA test to prove innocence, it would be rather unfair.

I hope you went to the top when you got the advice re getting the registrations without permission, as that is exactly what stud owners worry about.

If he's a good dog it rather surprises me that he hasn't a stud book number, as you can use that to register puppies instead of reg number.

I agree it would be unfair for the party who has been wronged to foot the DNA bill, but a stud owner who has had ID used without permission would know they wouldn't have to pay as they know it would come back as not their dogs puppies.