Hi everyone

I'm new to this site so forgive me for butting in. I have just noticed that my male was sold to me with endorsements on preventing me from breeding him I was never made aware of this when I bought my dog and I most definitely not asked to sign any contract to agree with it.
My dog is just coming upto 2 years old now and I was considering breeding him within the next 6-12 months so up until now I've never taken much notice to his kc registration papers.
I've emailed the breeder which I bought the dog off in the hope he will kindly remove the endorsements my reason for wanting to breed is simple my dog has a brilliant healthy blood line and we was considering buying another male but rather then spending thousands on another dog we would breed the one we have at least that way we have a better chance of getting another healthy problem free dog.

What are my chances of getting the endorsements removed by the kennel club if the breeder refuses to have them removed.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and thanks in advance for the replies.

If the breeder did not inform you of the endorcments you can contact the KC who may lift them however I don't see how breeding him would be a cheaper alternative to get a puppy as if you have a female you will have all the breeding related costs and if your thinking of having him used at stud an unproven dogs stud fee would not be near the cost of a puppy and good breeder will be looking for good dogs proven to be quality in health and conformation who best match there girls so are unlikely to use a dog who hasn't proven himself worth them using as bitch owner have lots of boys to pick from. Have you shown him or compeated in any of the sports? Does the breed have any recommend health testing? If so has your boy had them done?

Firstly good breeders endorse the puppies they sell to prevent unwise and exploitative breeding.

If you have barely taken notice of his KC papers you can have done no research into his bloodlines or into the breeds lines in general to determine which lines are compatible.

Your breed is one of extreme/unnatural conformation which can lead to the tendency to numerous health issues.

the best breeders try to breed in such a way as to avoid these as much as they can within the parameters of the breed conformation.

It takes a lot of knowledge which you don't have.

A person starting out ion the road to breeding will first prove their dogs worthiness by engaging in competition to compare them with the best in the breed, in this breeds case (as bullbaiting is no longer a legitimate arena) it is the showring.

This enables you to compare your dogs good and bad points against others.#

During this time you would study the various bloodlines the dogs ancestors through club publications, buying past ones for decades.

Most breeders when starting out rely heavily on the knowledge of their dog breeder, as they should have the knowledge you lack.  Getting into conflict about the endorsements is not the way to go, even if he did not place them strictly according to KC advice (having you sign that you were aware).

Also you have to remember that it is the bitch owners who decide which males to use, and good breede5rs have the choice of the best available males.

No good breeder is likely to approach you, your dog had no record, they won't have seen him against others, so you would only attract the irresponsible bitch owner after a fest buck from a litter.

> my reason for wanting to breed is simple my dog has a brilliant healthy blood line

Many dogs come from brilliant healthy bloodlines, but they may not be breeding quality themselves. Some breeders may lift the endorsements if your dog has had all the health tests and come through clear, and if they have been shown and placed, indicating they are a good example of the breed.

Your breed does require health tests, have these been done yet? HUU testing I know needs to be done as often seen this on a friend in the breeds adverts.

Gemescopeer MyDogDNA panel shows that the breed has several conditions that can be tested for:
https://www.mydogdna.com/crm/index.html#en/breeds/519248a83cd390a052000048/bulldog

Canine Multifocal Retinopathy 1 (CMR1), Mastiff-related breeds mutation  Eye disorder  Autosomal Recessive

Hyperuricosuria and Hyperuricemia (HUU) or Urolithiasis  Kidney disorder  Autosomal Recessive

Also according to US statistics for Hip dysplasia http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html the bulldog is the number one worst breed for dysplasia even though for some strange reason few UK breeders Hip score which I think is a disgrace.

There are probably other conditions to test for see here: http://www.bulldogbreedcouncil.co.uk/statement-of-health.html

If your boy is a much loved pet are you aware that once he's had a bitch, he will want more.  And there is a high risk that he will start scenting in the house.  Stud dog owners take the risk, but they have to get used to their much loved boy peeing up the sofa (and everywhere else.)

Yesterday I read a very sad story on fb this lady has breeding Bulldogs for 20 years and lost her bitch with 4days to go till due date, she then opened her bitch to save puppies. Yesterday the last pup died. Breeding is not for the faint hearted.
Sorry this is not my breed just thought people need to know.
Nessa

Leaving aside the whether you should be allowing your dog to be used at stud, all reputable breeders sell their immature stock with endorsements, or should.  However, not to make it clear that your puppy will carry endorsements was totally wrong and I believe, against KC rules.    Breeders are required to advise new owners that the puppy they are buying carries endorsments and I think this has to be in writing, signed.

What does bother me is the idea that the KC might lift endorsements breeders put on the puppies they sell and I know it does happen. 

Just to add I totally agree that once used, a pet dog may well be looking for the next bitch who probably won't be there and he may well start marking.   Rather than assume he's going to pass on his good points (takes two to tango) if you want another Bulldog, why not go to the same breeder for another puppy?    The sire owner is 50% responsible for any puppies the dog might sire and that means you need to have a good depth of knowledge of your breed so you know that any bitch he might be asked to mate with, is going to nick with him (not carry the same faults - and every dog has faults).   Being healthy isn't a good enough reason to be allowing your dog to be used at stud I'm afraid.

ps.   The non-breeding endorsement on your dog doesn't prevent him from being mated, just any puppies he's involved in producing can't be KC registered.  And who, with a decent bitch worth breeding, wouldn't want to be able to register her puppies!

with regard to endorsements I am not sure when people are buying a puppy if they arnt experienced they are necessarily really listening to everything a breeder is saying so something about endorsements could easily be missed .

I know people I have spoken to with dogs often haven't a clue what an endorsement for breeding is unfortunately.

Also agree that its awful that the kc lift endorsements therefore effectively over riding the breeder

this might be of use http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=55104

I was just about to post the above link. It makes interesting reading if you wish to look at offering your male at stud.

If your boy has endorsements then his pups will not be open to KC registration unless you have the endorsement lifted. Your first action is to look at any contract you were given when you purchased him. It is  not unusual for new owners to be so engrossed in the puppy as to miss anything the breeder is telling you. I have had owners  tune out and had to put the puppy away until we have gone through all the paperwork to make sure it is understood. This will show you weather you did indeed sign anything to say you understood the puppy had endorsements. The next step is his breeder, The endorsements can only be lifted by the breeder and on occasion the KC if it can be proved that the breeder has no way of proving that you understood that they were in place. The breeder may have information about the puppy or his breeding that may well mean he is not suitable in some way, be it health or conformation problems.
Even if he is a good specimen and his health tests are good as well he will be of very limited appeal to any careful breeders unless he has proved himself in the show-rings or his bloodlines are sought after because of limited supply. He may appeal to some breeders who fall outside the show circle or have unregistered stock and wish to produce pups purely to sell and make a few bucks. It is up to you if you choose to add to the growing numbers of unregistered dogs who unfortunately because of this have lesser value in many yes. More unregistered pure bred dogs fill the rescues than registered do. They just seem to have little value in peoples eyes.
No one can stop you using him on any bitch that is offered, But plenty of people are already pouring this type of stock into the market.
Why not work with his breeder and try to produce good happy healthy stock that could offer something to the betterment of the breed as a whole.

my reason for wanting to breed is simple my dog has a brilliant healthy blood line and we was considering buying another male but rather then spending thousands on another dog we would breed the one we have at least that way we have a better chance of getting another healthy problem free dog.

Even without considering the above comments, by the time you have taken into account the costs of health tests, the possible (probable) complications of trying to mate a dog of your breed (difficult for those experienced, much less novices), found a suitable healthy bitch to mate with (owners of good bitches will go to proven quality stud dogs - you will be left with byb), and not to mention the stress and extra work. 

Trust me when I say that buying a pup, even if it costs you thousands, is a much cheaper and easier option than using your dog to get a puppy.

Besides, the 'brilliant health blood line' your dog has is due to his breeder - best and easiest thing to do is to go back to your breeder and buy another pup.

> Also agree that its awful that the kc lift endorsements therefore effectively over riding the breeder

As you said often people don't take things in, this is why some years ago to avoid disputes the KC required owners to inform about endorsements in writing and have  signature of buyer.  I include it in my sales contract.

If they are not properly placed while pups are physically still with the person placing them (it's not just breeders that can place them, you could sell a dog on and endorse, such as when retiring a stud dog say), that is when the KC will lift them.

Breeders put endorsements on puppies for various reasons. It's just their way of 'trying' to protect their lines and the breed from being exploited. - alot of breeders will lift endorsements if a dog has proven itself in a certain sport and when the dogs have passed health tests, and reached a certain age. - your best bet is do contact the breeder and speak with them after all they know their dogs and lines and will be able to advise you the best. If they refuse to lift the endorsements there may well be a good reason and it's just something you will have to live with and respect. I take it that if you wasnt aware of the restrictions in the first place then you didn't speak to the breeder about breeding in the future in which case I would guess that studding your dog out has just been an over night thought. There's much research you will need to do before allowing your dog at stud. A lot of people going to stud like to be guided by the studs owner and would expect you to know the ins and outs of their breed and the lines theirs and your dogs comes from.
- without knowing your dogs lines how can you determine that your dog will then go on to produce a health l, quality litter, are you educated enough within the breed to know what bitches would be suitable and what pedigrees will not be to close? Or even a mating of two dogs that compliment one and another?

>Also agree that its awful that the kc lift endorsements therefore effectively over riding the breeder

I think it's naive to assume that everyone uses endorsements for the good of the breed - there can surely be no doubt that some use it to control and to take the opportunity to get further money from buyers at a later date? - so I think it's absolutely correct that the KC have put a system in place for this.

There is a clear procedure which makes things plain for both parties (whether there is a chance they will be lifted later, and under what circumstances).

Where the seller has followed correct procedure, endorsements should stay. Where they haven't, I think it is only fair that they are lifted even if it unfortunately opens up opportunity for some unscrupulous people. People have had plenty of notice now to be following the rules.

How does the KC determine whether it was made clear to the buyer? Do they ask for a copy of litter advert from either KC or CD site? Is it one person's word over another?
I have heard some people are charging to lift the endorsement, is this fair?

>How does the KC determine whether it was made clear to the buyer? Do they ask for a copy of litter advert from either KC or CD site? Is it one person's word over another?

Haven't had experience of it personally, but the person who placed the endorsement needs to lift it - so would assume that if asked, they would state where appropriate that they weren't willing to do so and provide evidence that all was clearly agreed by the buyer.

>I have heard some people are charging to lift the endorsement, is this fair?

In my view, that would only be fair if it was made clear at the time of sale and signed as part of the agreement.

> Do they ask for a copy of litter advert from either KC or CD site?

No they don't.  I've never known anyone to put this in an advert.  It is something that would be discussed thoroughly either face to face or over the telephone.

I have breeding restrictions on the whole litter, including any pups that I will be keeping for myself.  That way I actually have to request restrictions to be lifted (if the pups kept reach expectations.)  I do make people 150% clear and ask them to sign that they fully understand. 

I have to be fair and admit that (in my opinion) people are more likely to request restrictions to be lifted on a bitch.  So I'm very fortunate that people I sell bitches to have them spayed as they are sold as pets.  I honestly don't know of any reputable dog person not making restrictions the norm.

It was in my contract which all buyers and myself signed and we have a copy each. Covers endorsements and I went through verbally before I agreed to them having a pup and again at the time of signing. All said they understood as well.

It should be signed in writing, this is what I put in my contract:

You will see on your ‘KENNEL CLUB’ REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE that there are two ENDORSEMENTS on the forms.  These are to safeguard the welfare of the puppy and the breed. 

Should you wish to breed from your puppy in the future, provided he/she is of sound temperament and general health with no major conformation faults according to the KC breed standard (and preferably shown), and you are able to offer the long term commitment to be an ethical breeder/Stud dog owner, taking lifelong responsibility for the welfare of any puppies bred, I can then apply to the ‘Kennel Club’ to lift the breeding restriction AT NO EXTRA COST TO THE BUYER.

This is subject to receiving copies of Satisfactory HIP, and EYE test Certificates. Must be DNA Tested or have hereditary clear status for the breed relevant DNA tests. Preferably also be Elbow Scored (with a normal ‘0’ result) and a Normal Kidney blood test result.  Undergone any other new health tests that are appropriate at that time.  This puppy if not clear by parentage for all known DNA testable breed issues, will need to be tested, and should only bred from in such a way that no affected puppies will be produced.  If you have a bitch puppy, this would not be until she is over two years old.  Any potential plan for breeding should be discussed with me in advance.

both parties sign and date, and one copy is kept by me, and one goes with the buyer.

> Besides, the 'brilliant health blood line' your dog has is due to his breeder - best and easiest thing to do is to go back to your breeder and buy another pup.

I'd TOTALLY agree with this, and if there is a non-breeding endorsement on this male, clearly the breeder may have felt she didn't want to risk puppies she didn't keep herself, being used, for whatever reason.

> It was in my contract which all buyers and myself signed and we have a copy each. Covers endorsements and I went through verbally before I agreed to them having a pup and again at the time of signing. All said they understood as well.

THIS is how it should work much as I agree that sometimes a new owner might not 'hear' all that's being said.  Which is why it should be in writing, and SIGNED.

I'm afraid all too often I've heard of the KC stick their oar in and agreeing to lift an endorsement.   As for paying to have it lifted - again this should be in writing in the Sale Contract.   But taking more money for this isn't something I'd be doing.   Not that I was ever in that situation, thankfully.  My only regret is selling two unendorsed puppies to a fellow breeder because I trusted her.  She sold them out of the country, to yet another breeder, later on and how I regret not having a not for export endorsement on them - which might have made the overseas breeder think twice about taking them.  Might.  Hard lesson to learn that one.

My contract has a separate section that covers endorsements setting out what they are and under what circumstances I would lift them, then after that stating "We have been given time to read and understand the implications of any endorsements placed on this puppies registration and to understand what requirements would be wanted by the breeder to lift said endorsements"
I expect this to be signed independently of the contract, by all parties, and within it even though the contract is signed at the end.
No surprises for anyone that way
Aileen

I endorse all my pups, even the ones I keep. I put this on all adverts, explained on all enquiries and full written information in my contract which details circumstances under which they would be lifted .. All Signed by me and new owner. One copy for me the other for new owner.

If KC approached to lift endorsement as new owner wasn't aware off them the KC would write to breeder and request copy of contract. Personally would also send details if adverts too .

If you endorse your puppies and have a contract in place you MUST give the buyer a copy of the contract IN ADVANCE and give fair time for them to read and understand its implications.
If you omitted to give this "Cooling off period" the contract will NOT stand up in court.

> If you omitted to give this "Cooling off period" the contract will NOT stand up in court.

It doesn't need to stand up in courts (the endorsement part) jut Kennel ?club procedures/rules.

Though I agree it is wise to give people a copy of your contract when they first get accepted to have a puppy.

I need and want the contents of my contract to stand up in court...not least to threaten the KC with it ...if and when they decide to lift the endorsements under pressure from a buyer who says they " didnt understand" that there were endorsements.
What better evidence?

> I need and want the contents of my contract to stand up in court...not least to threaten the KC with it ...if and when they decide to lift the endorsements under pressure from a buyer who says they " didnt understand" that there were endorsements.

I don't think 'threatening the KC' is going to stand up in any court to be honest.   They require the owner of the puppy to make SURE the new owner understands, at point of sale, what endorsements mean, and what have been put on the puppy they are buying.   Innocence isn't a defence.   Endorsements are there on the Registration Papers, if put on.

Exactly my point..contract is sent out in advance and noted that the owners have read and UNDERSTOOD its implications.

I give sample contract to potential new owners well in advance of pups going to new homes, that contract is then signed on day the pups leave

Bulldog78 ~ Do any of these replies help you?

My bitch has a breeding g endorsement. The breeder said if I wanted to breed her then either bring her back or if I found a suitable dog with good bloodlines she would lift  I however moved too far to use her as a stud so sort out my own found a brillant stud great lines all health checks etc sent it to her and she refuses to lift   Saying that she will if I use her dogs. I just can not make the drive it's too far so or I would have i contacted the kennel club and I don't have a leg to stand on the lady I spoke to said she agreed with me and that it's wrong I should be allowed to have it lifted but unless the breeder agree there is nothing they can do so after lots of thoughts we decided to still use the stud dog we found  he was better then hers and we won't be registering her puppies a bit gutted but really kc registration I have been told by so many is just a glorified family history which my puppy will still come with there family history and a life time of advice and help from me

What on earth is the point in an unregistered litter. 

When breeding you should be considering the breed as a whole, and what contribution the resulting puppies may make, as well as wanting to keep a pup to breed on from. 

This litter is basically a pointless dead end other than having puppies to sell.

It may well be that the breeder was unreasonable in expecting you to use their own dogs (most breeders would not do this, as their own dogs are likely to be too related to your bitch), but and it's important the breeder may well have known that there was a reason the dog you chose would not compliment your bitch, some lines may be incompatible, or may both carry the same faults your trying to avoid, especially health ones.

If you signed an agreement with those conditions then you should have stuck to it.

Most good breeders endorse all their puppies including those they keep.

As for to far away, that is no excuse.  Many people travel the breadth and length of the country or abroad.  I have travelled to Finland and the USA (of course the litters cost more to achieve, but we needed the new blood).

No responsible stud dog owner would consider allowing a mating of an endorsed bitch. Please think again.

Koda2012, There can only be one reason why your girls breeder is insisting on using her dogs that is to keep her lines going as she has been building them, good genetic matchings producing dogs of good structure, health and temperament are extremely important to most of us, and what we are building, traveling hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles for the right stud dog.

The fact that you may be willing to produce an unregistered litter to have an easier to get to stud dog, shows at least to me, that you just want puppies, the building blocks for you are just not there...........

You travelled to get your pup from the breeder, so you can travel to mate your girl to one of her studs, I guess she may also wish to have a pup from this mating. I would certainly trust her judgment on what is best for the breed, too many people breed for the wrong reasons, too many people are breeding ill health, dodgy temperaments and dogs which look nothing like the breed into what were good lines, as they know not what they are doing.

Do the right thing if you love your breed and make sure your girls line stays a good line.

ETA - you went ahead and had the puppies.........an unregistered litter will add  nothing to the breed and only now encourage the puppy owners to do the same, with or without your knowledge, beagle x litters on their way........

Hi I understand where your coming from  if my breeder was closer I would have used her dog I was and am in full contact with Her When I got my dog she was local since then I have moved the opposite end of country from her my dog gets stressed out on long car journeys I have been in full contact with my breeder and she has told me The it's a good stud dog with good lines. Will make lovely puppies . she just changed her mind a while back about using other stud dogs then her own did not say why  this part she agreed with me verbally before and on day I collected my puppy it was not in the contract  I did research loads of dogs local within 100 miles and used the best.  My mother is a dog breeder if 30 year experience   Pure breed kc italian greyhounds I have had her to bounce all the pros and cons off of it this was not some whim for puppies or reckless breeding  it was a long thought out my dog is Perfect in every way  we did think about buying another puppy  but wanted  one with our dogs blood line esp from the same dad but he's now a retired stud dog and we know the breeder sold her mum days before we collected our puppy this I was not impressed on , I would not dream of polluting the breed standard any way

I will also point out this is going to be my dogs only litter I have no intensions on being a breeder yes I want puppies but more I wanted a direct blood line to my dog to keep this seemed the only way I am not in it for money nor will any puppies go to unsuitable home all care will be given with with lifetime advice and option to return puppy / dog to me at any time should they find the worst that they can not give it a home any more I hope to be always in contact with the potentional owers but I am not deluded I am aware this is rare I am one I give my breeder updates on my dog send her Xmas cards and photos if I could kc register them I would I live in hope that my breeder may still live up to her agreement with me and the stud dig I used has my breeders blood lines in him And it's not about having puppies to play with as my mum lives 5 miles from me I am always over helping her

But Koda, you can't control it now.......... a KC dog is an institution of hereditary, it enables us to protect our breed, to keep it pure, to endorse and protect the long dog lines, you have just thrown all of that away.

It matters not what you put on paper, what family tree you may make, it is no longer official, no longer means anything, you may as well have mongrels now.......you've just thrown away those genes and all of that history, your puppies, their puppies they are a dead line now.

They will never be of any help in making your breed healthy or keeping it to breed standard, as you have now terminated their line, they can never be used.

What was the point in breeding them.........don't say for pets, as KC pups are sold as pets after the picks of the litter.........what was the point?

I can't agree with your decision, it is a waste and a shame, but I hope you find them good homes and they don't end up producing crosses now, which is what normally happens to unregistered dogs, and please, please be very wary now of puppy farmers, they will just love to snap them up, check every address carefully the puppy farmers will be like vultures, they don't often get the chance to grab your breed.

But yes Koda, appeal again and again to your girls breeder to please lift, it is an absolute waste otherwise...........although I would have done the begging well before any kind of mating..... perhaps if you still offer a stud fee, or price of a pup it may sway her, although if she is dead set against the mating (for her own reasons) it may be a no go...........I just can't believe any reputable stud owner mated with your bitch, what a mess..............

As a breeder, the fact someone has ignored the endorsement, had carried on to have a litter, would not change my mind in any way. Although I would still want to be in contact with the bitch I bred, I would find it hard that my protection of the breed/my breeding had not been adhered to