I've have just put a deposit down on a beautiful Orange roan, show type, English Cocker Spaniel but I am a little concerned about her eyes. They look really closed, kind of droopy but it's not from the bottom lid it's more from the top lid. It's so hard to explain because the skin doesn't look loose or baggy around her eyes but the dog looks dopey to the extreme! When holding the puppy it just has its eyes closed the whole time but when its on the floor it does open the but they're still very small. The whole litter had dopey eyes but it's just more extreme on my pup but she's the only one of lighter colouring. I have 2 older Cocker spaniels and neither of them had eyes like this when they were pups. In any of your experience, is this something to be concerned about or is it something that will improve over time? Thanks x

Hi Kerry, it's difficult to imagine just what these eyes look like, so I couldn't comment on what, if anything, might be wrong. I can only say what I would do in the same circumstances. If I had any doubts whatsoever I would walk away. I would not be leaving a deposit on a puppy that I wasn't 100% happy with. I hope you work this out in your own mind for the best.

Regards Dawn R.

Thanks Dawn. I wish I could show you a photo but can't find a way to do it on here. The thing is I have been looking for a while to find a puppy whose parents have been fully DNA health tested (which this puppies parents are) and I guess I'm hoping that the dopey eye thing is just what some Cockers are like. Everything else about this pup is perfect, it's being brought up inside a busy home with children etc.. The pup is going for a vet check with the breeder this week so I would hope they would pick up if it's going to be a problem?!? I think experienced breeders can often know more than vets on their particular breed so that's why I'm asking here as well x

I hope you have a wonderful time with your new puppy when you bring her home. I would go by the vets checks and also as your breeder has health tested possibly puppy is fine. If you are still concerned why not chat with the breeder?

I've just changed my profile picture thing to a pic of the puppy so I can show you. This is the widest it opened it's eyes if you can see it very well! X

Thanks saxonjus. I haven't yet asked the breeder as this is her first Cocker Spaniel litter and so i don't know what her breed experience would be. And secondly, I don't want to offend the breeder (I know this is a wimpish thing to do), but you're right. I should ask her and see what she thinks! Thanks again for your advice both x

You can put a link to a better photo in your profile I think

Without seeing a clear picture of the puppy and without knowing the current age of the puppy it is difficult to give advice.. Please be aware however that cocker spaniels can be prone to many eye issues which are not part of the health test schemes.

An experienced breeder would spot many of these issues as early as four weeks old in many cases and would be careful to research both pedigrees for instances of these eye issues before breeding. This is because many of these eye issues are recessive, so may not be visible in mom or dad but can occur in the pup as they could both carry the faulty gene. For example: distichiasis (extra eye lashes), entropion (ingrowing eyelids) and ectropion (sagging, loose eyelids) are all known in cocker spaniels.

If you would like to pm me a picture with the pups age I may be able to give you more guidance. Without being rude, as this is the breeders first litter it is unlikely that she would recognise an eye issue in its early developmental phase.

It may be much ado about nothing, but as it has made you question what you have seen, I would be honest with the breeder and seek further advice.

The pup is going for a vet check with the breeder this week so I would hope they would pick up if it's going to be a problem?!?

Maybe you could ask for a written vet certificate as proof. When I get pups vet checked I get the vet to put the entire litter on one sheet of paper, stating KC name, KC reg no, microchip number, colour and sex for each pup, and any comments about each pup -even if it is just to say the pup is perfectly healthy. I then copy this for EACH buyer so that everyone can see that the entire litter has passed without problems.

Thanks darwinawards and goldmali. Thanks both for your great advice. I tried to pm darwinawards but I can't find a way to send a picture (I've never been in this forum before), it's a bit cheeky of me but if you pm your email I could send like that? But I will follow your advice and speak to the breeder and ask if she can get a written certificate or notes from the vet. If they say all is fine, I will still tell her I will take the pups to my vets to be checked within 48 hours as well. After that should I expect or ask her for a full refund and return the pup if my vets think there's a problem? Thanks again for all of your brilliant advice, I really appreciate it.

Are they very wet? Is there excessive skin on the head just above the eyes causing weight to push eyelids down over the sockets?
I'd want to rule out entropion - turned in lids or distichiasis - eye lashes  growing into the eyeball...quite common in show cockers I believe..you're need an experienced person or a vet looking at the puppy if you are worried.
It's a long and expensive commitment with a puppy so be SURE before you buy.

I'm looking at your avtar picture on a tablet, so I can zoom a bit. It looks to me as though there might be some discomfort there. It looks like the puppy is finding it difficult to open the eyes due to soreness. I apologise if Im proven wrong and the small picture isn't perfectly clear, but I have a feeling this might be entropion. I would want a vet to see this.

I really do hope I'm wrong, fingers crossed.

Dawn R.

I must admit I do agree with you on looking like the pup is in some discomfort. Hard to tell by the avatar though. Puppies should be bright and playful,the description the OP gives sounds like something isn't right with the poor little mite. Definately something I'd want a vet to take a closer look at if your concerned. Fingers crossed for both you and pup.

I tred to zoom in as much as possible. Maybe the puppy has an eye infection? You advise thou when put on floor the puppy opens eyes more? I'd certainly take on board advice given on here and chat with breeder about your concerns and wait for vet's  report.
Re money back from the comments,advice I've  seen here from members a reputable breeder would give deposit back and keep puppy. Not sure if you take the puppy after breeder's vet's  advises ok and your vet says no its  not ok. I'm  sure a more experienced member and breeder would help you re this.
Best of luck

I have sent you a pm. In a different pc i have also zoomed and although very blurred something does not look right.
I am happy to help if required x

I just picked up on this thread and can only suggest that if there is anything about this puppy/litter that worries you MOVE ON.  There will be other litters.   Alternatively if you really want this particular puppy, I suppose you could take it, on the basis that you need to have him checked by YOUR OWN vet and if he feels there is something significantly wrong with these eyes, you'll be bringing the puppy back.

Having a main breed that has been having loads of eye problems across the breed in recent years to the point that recently puppies with 'excess skin' have their eyelids tacked to allow them to 'grow into their skin'!!  Seriously - and what's more it's apparently considered 'normal' to have this done! if there was any departure from what's correct in a puppy, I'd spend my money elsewhere.   FWIW

I am a little late coming in to this thread but I would be a little worried that it is something like Entropion. (The turning in of the eyelid) This is deemed to be a genetic fault but remains painful and would require surgery to put right. (Possibly more than one surgery) Entopion on my mastiff cost approx. £800. Whilst it is the lower lid that is more common it can quite easily occur in the upper lid. Unfortunately, through experience, I can advise that not all Breeders will always tell you the truth regarding any such Vet Checks. I would certainly advise that you ask about it and possibly ask to see a Vet Report. Of course it may very well not be Entropion and the Breeder may be totally honest but I would certainly check this out. if the pup has to have an operation (entropion) then it would possibly not be allowed in the Show Ring if that was something you were considering.

Hi again all, sorry I've been quiet and not got back to you all - it's been quite stressful getting to the bottom of it with the breeder. After all of your great advice I did express my concerns to the breeder and she acted as if she hadn't noticed and that the puppy was fine but said she'd get the vet to check over the pup and let me know. This is the message I then got from the breeder after the check....
"All went well at the vets.
Orange girl does have weeping eyes.
Vet said it's a cocker thing. As she'll grow do will her eyes.
There is a slight risk of her eyelash underneath turning inwards so she could possibly need the an operation to remove them.
The vet couldn't say 100% either way what would happen.
Said it's more common in cockers and it's not hereditary at all.
Do if you don't want her I can refund your money no problem as I've another lady who was wanting me to let her know if the sale fell through.
I'll send a copy of her certificate so you can have a think.
I'm ok with whichever you choose to do.
There's no infection in her eye either.
Xxx"

After which, I pulled out and asked for my deposit back as definitely feel there's a problem there! The decision has been heart breaking but definitely the right one. I'm incredibly relieved to have found out and walked away at this stage before it went any further. I am so so grateful for the advice and support I've received from all of you on here, and in particular Sally, that private messaged me and even spoke to me on the phone late at night to console me and lend her support! Thank you all x

> There is a slight risk of her eyelash underneath turning inwards so she could possibly need the an operation to remove them.
> The vet couldn't say 100% either way what would happen.
>Said it's more common in cockers and it's not hereditary at all.

It most certainly is inherited!

What a heartbreaking decision but think you've done the right thing. The advice and knowledge given out on this forum is THE best and people really do care. Hope all works out for you in the future.

It doesn't make sense to say that something is common in a certain breed but isn't inherited. Sorry this has happened to you and hope you get the puppy you want soon.

It doesn't make sense to say that something is common in a certain breed but isn't inherited. Sorry this has happened to you and hope you get the puppy you want soon.

If it didn't feel right then it's for the best for you. I am sure you will find a lighter coloured roan puppy soon. Lots of luck

Well done -you did the right thing. Not easy but far better than getting attached to a pup with problems. What kind of breeder does not notice a problem, and what kind of vet (if indeed the vet DID say it!) claims a problem wellknown to be hereditary is not hereditary........

Kerry I know how upset you must be feeling, but I believe that there was more heartbreak ahead if you had bought the pup, fell in love, and had to watch her go through operations.

It is so lucky that you came to the best dog site for advice.  Sometimes we may come across a bit emphatic with our answers, but, without a doubt the people on here put dogs first and foremost.

Well done on making the right decision. That condition is hereditary whether it's direct from the parents or a throw back. I wouldn't touch that litter with a barge pole and I would look further into those lines as well if you consider getting a puppy from similar lines in the future.

Oh Kerry, I'm so sorry it turned out this way. As the others have said, it's hard on you now but it would be even worse the further down the road you got. It's sad for the puppy to have a painful eye condition though and I hope she gets the treatment she needs quickly. You will find the right puppy and you are now armed with some experience to know what to look for in the future. :)

Dawn R.

> Vet said it's a cocker thing.

> Said it's more common in cockers and it's not hereditary at all.

If it's a cocker thing, common in cockers, ipso facto it's an inherited trait.

I hadn't seen droopy eyes in the few litters I looked at. I feel for the poor puppy and wonder what will happen to her? I feel my heart strings being pulled and trying to resist urge to offer help

I feel for the poor puppy and wonder what will happen to her?

Hopefully the breeder will not get it sold, have to keep it and fork out for surgery, and will then think twice about breeding again. Or it gets sold and the new owners  sue the breeder for the costs. The worst thing that could happen is that it gets sold and the breeder gets no come back at all.

That's a bit mean, the parents are fully health tested and it's the breeders first litter, so they have tried to do everything right and had the misfortune to turn up an unexpected issue.

From the original post, it would seem the whole litter are affected, so it needs a serious rethink on the sire and dams breeding potential.

Quite agree that the breeder will now have to sort any issues.  After the costs they will have been well and truly put off breeding again.

It may be that eyelid tacking will sort out the issue and pups will be fine within a few extra weeks, but should be sold fully endorsed not to be bred from..

As others have said this is hereditary, too much loose skin. I had a similar issue with my first 2 Chow Chow pups, the breeder called it 'wet eye' and told me it was common in Chow pups and that they would grow out of it. He was half right, the bigger pup with more bone grew into his skin with no problems but the finer boned pup needed 2 surgeries to correct the problem.

You have made the right decision as it really could go either way.

That's a bit mean, the parents are fully health tested and it's the breeders first litter, so they have tried to do everything right and had the misfortune to turn up an unexpected issue.

It said it was the breeder's first litter of THIS breed so I assumed they have experience of breeding others. Hence they should have realised there was a problem.

Without disclosing too much information the breeder has indeed got experience of breeding, just other breeds. From the pictures I was able to view I cannot see how the breeder could have possibly missed what looked to me like a very obvious and serious issue with both eyes.

I will say no more; other than I am pleased that the OP was intelligent enough to ask for advice, was confident enough to seek a second opinion when she was being told it was a "small" issue that should not overly concern her and brave enough to walk away from the whole sorry situation.

did right thing to walk.  My beautiful weimaraner who I wouldn't be without her breeder made out that the sight weepiness of eyes of litter was bit of dust in air etc and that vet had said them all good. turned out at first vet visit she had extra eyelashes top and bottom both eyes- too severe to be opperable so eye drops for life and a dog with bad eye sight which has caused some temprament issues.  Made out at time that she was dismayed at the vets finding but went on to repeat the mating and have another litter with same breeding.  I should have walked. I wouldn't be without my girl but I won't be caught out like that ever again as this is a lifelong problem and not to be taken lightly.

Would it be unusual for the whole litter to be affected?

I would think so, very bad luck indeed if neither parent affected to have more than one.

It is true that in particularly loose skinned pups a temporary tack will sort things out allowing the pup to grow into it's facial skin.

> Would it be unusual for the whole litter to be affected?

If there is an abnormal amount of skin in these puppies, it could well affect all of them.   It does with Basset puppies who are 'over-endowed' with loose skin.   This should surely NOT affect Cocker Spaniels!!    Not that it should affect Bassets either but in the recent past, it has, because of all this 'more is better' thinking.   NONE of my puppies had to have their eyelids tacked before they'd grown into their skin.  And to me, if things get to that stage, tacking the norm, then there is a serious problem within the breed.   And as a result of all this excess, our Breed Standard has been 'adjusted' to hopefully prevent exaggeration.   Yes, the breed should have loose skin (there originally to prevent ripping when hunting through the bush) but to the point that puppies eyes routinely need tacking???  

I don't think any dog which has to be tacked should be bred from. Shar pei's are known to have to have this done too, whether it's the norm I don't know but if you read up about it a lot refers to that breed

Just wanted to say tacking should only be done as a measure to prevent damage and pain in the pup, such pups should not of course  be bred from, and the trait allowed to become 'the norm' but something needs to be done to help pups already born, when resorting to surgery might be overkill.

Of course it does require both breeder and owner to be honest, (with themselves and others) as if it comes right as the pup matures, the owner may be unaware and breed, thereby perpetuating the fault.