Not sure what opinions you will all have but I needed to share this as I am so upset.  Sorry for the lengthy post in advance!

We decided to breed our lovely girl - I have had litters years ago but am not an experienced breeder. This was not about money - we wanted a pup and wanted to reproduce the best litter possible. We did things by the book taking advice at every stage and went for a recommended stud and paid the fee £950. I thought something was not right at the scan stage when I was told 2 possibly three, a second scan at 50 days confirmed this, (my breed usually has about 8 - 12). However the stud owner said this was not unusual.

My girl went 2 days over full term and went into labour - it was the most horrendous experience of my life. One not fully formed foetus came out and one full sized puppy whose tummy was not fully formed. We rushed to the vets - of course it was the middle of the night - as we thought there must be another inside due to the scans. There wasn't and we had a heartbreaking few weeks watching our beautiful girl pine for her pups. The stud owner never enquire days to how our girl was - btw she is fully recovered and as gorgeous as ever.

Whilst at first we couldn't even contemplate another go, 8 weeks on and following advice from my vet and various breeders it seems the consensus of opinion is that we were very unlucky - no reason identified but could have been congenital or maybe unknown exposure to pesticides - but we were so careful with her. Apparently there is no reason why she could not produce a healthy litter in the future.

Although the stud contract only offered a free mating if there was no pregnancy, advise from vet and other breeders was that in these circumstances they more than likely would offer another mating - with another dog.

I still don't know that I could put us all through this again but enquired with the stud owner about my options. I was told in no uncertain terms that their dog is proved, caused a pregnancy and basically that they have no obligation.

I accept that legally they do not have an obligation but on grounds of common decency I did not expect this response and it has astounded the other breeders that I know.  I am so upset with their uncaring and money based attitude and overall lack of concern for my dog at the time of the birth.

I would now not want to go back to them but just needed  to get some views on maybe trying again and views on the stud owners harsh response.

How very sad. I dare say most people I know would offer a free mating. The problem perhaps is the wording in the contract (but of course, that is up to the stud owner), as if it was me I would say if no LIVE pups born then a free mating would be offered. But of course, technically speaking the stud dog and his owner has fulfilled their part, but yes I fully agree that the nice thing to do would be to offer a free mating, especially considering how high the stud fee was.

Now years ago I had a litter of deformed kittens and I contacted Roy Robinson the famous geneticist (now dead). He told me that when you get several deformities in the same litter i.e. both different types and in more than one offspring, then outside influences are far more likely than genetics. So yes I think you would be okay to try one more time.

> Now years ago I had a litter of deformed kittens and I contacted Roy Robinson the famous geneticist (now dead). He told me that when you get several deformities in the same litter i.e. both different types and in more than one offspring, then outside influences are far more likely than genetics. So yes I think you would be okay to try one more time.

Totally agree.

There is a breed of stud owner who takes the money for "their services" and to hell with everything else.
Sadly it's not always possible to identify such hard hearted people and indeed there are some posters here who would say the stud owner was " within their rights".

Maybe so...but it goes against the grain for those not quite so 'professional' ....shall we say.
Yet another case of Letter of the law-v-spirit of the law.

Consolation?...there are many who would be gutted for you and go out of their way to  help....just saying!

I'm so sorry - what a horrible addition to a sad experience.
I had my girl scanned last week (day 60) as, although the vet said he confirmed pregnancy (palpation at around 30 days) the last few weeks I was concerned she wasn't showing much.  An ultrasound confirmed she must have absorbed and she is now having a phantom.  The stud owner has offered another mating.  I can't comment on the legality but it seems heartless, particularly considering the high stud fee - mercenary and like a kick in the teeth in what is already a gutting experience.

Good luck for next time if you go for it.

> it seems heartless, particularly considering the high stud fee - mercenary

After all the aim of a mating is a litter, we don't pay the fee for the dogs to have a bit of fun.

In breeds where stud fees are low, the fee really does only cover stud dog owners time and trouble, ensuring the dogs eye tests for example are up to date etc, but when your talking a stud fee the price of a puppy then it really is almost money fro old rope.

Other than boarding the visiting bitch, and said up to date health tests the stud dog owner has no expenses after they get their fee, and rarely need to take any responsibility for the puppies for the rest of their lives (quite rightly as they don't control where the pups are homed).

I know stud dog owners that board bitches for weeks, meet the bitch owner half way travelling, or bring the stud to the bitches home if transport is an issue, and if no pups result they take no fee despite having incurred expense and time and trouble..

Blimey!  I charge £250 max and would offer a mating next season without hesitation.

Just to say that there are far more nice folk out there than the stud dog owner that you used.  Write it off to experience and don't spend wasted time thinking about them.

Good Luck next time. 

>I know stud dog owners that board bitches for weeks, meet the bitch owner half way travelling, or bring the stud to the bitches home if transport is an issue, and if no pups result they take no fee despite having incurred expense and time and trouble.

I won't even begin to tell you what a wonderful stud dog owner is doing/has done to ensure my girl gets pregnant..it defies belief. But as she says....it's for the breed.

I'm sorry to hear about your dog absorbing JenP it's so sad, I'm sure that like me you will have been so excited planning and preparing - good luck to you next time.

And thanks to everyone for your comments, it's nice to know there are lovely stud owners out there.

Also thanks for the genetic info, that's made me feel a bit more confident about trying again.  Any views on how long I should wait, I was thinking of letting her have her next season then trying the following time but will of course consult with my vet.

I'd mate on next season, it's a long time otherwise, and she won't be getting any younger (I assume it's a first litter).

Yes I agree with Brainless, go for next season.

My stud contract, based on the Contract used by the owners of the first stud we went to, down in the States (from Toronto), stated a free repeat mating would be offered in the event of no puppies and further, that only one puppy didn't constitute 'a litter' so there'd be a free repeat also.   Whether a free repeat would be offered, in this case, would depend on the wording on the stud agreement.    I tended to look on a stud service as that - you paid for the service but I also liked to look on each situation as an individual situation - it's a good idea to keep a good standing within the breed!

Sadly 'stuff happens' with breeding but it must have been ghastly to be faced with what you had.   And that's a hefty stud fee to be walking away from ..... in our breed the stud fee does represent the cost of a puppy however and that would be 'the norm'.    Gone are the days when we were active - £450 was the average cost of a good puppy and also a stud fee.

I'd be hesitating about whether to mate (to another male for sure!) on her next season but that would depend on her overall health/recovery, and her age now too.    She still went through a pregnancy after all.

I had a similar situation.  C section 3 puppies (very small litter for the breed) all of whom had cleft palates and had to be pts.  The stud dog owner did ask how my girl was and was nice about it. I never asked for another mating with their dog but nor did they offer a return or a refund of the most expensive stud fee I have ever paid.  I was also told by my vet that all 3 puppies being affected strongly suggested environmental influence and I did put her in whelp on her next season to a different dog.  She whelped 9 puppies completely naturally without intervention, all strong and healthy without any issues.  Her daughter has gone on to have 2 litters without any malformations. So don't be afraid to try again, I was unsure about it and was so very glad I did.

> She still went through a pregnancy after all

but pregnancy itself takes very little out of a bitch, it's the rearing does that, and the pregnancy did only result in tow dead pups so not a large litter to be a drain on the bitch either.

When I had a bitch lose a litter (2 pups) I mated her at the next season again. It was nothing at all like she had reared pups, she never lost condition.

Thanks Zajak and everyone - will probably be a total nervous wreck for the 9 weeks but if we don't try again it will always be an awful memory. Expect lots of future posts from me asking for advice and reassurance

> but pregnancy itself takes very little out of a bitch, it's the rearing does that,

That is exactly what my vet says. 

If it were me I'd not offer a refund as the dog did produce a litter...  however i would offer a free return with the same sire or the choice of another male in my kennel., alternatively if you didn't want to breed the bitch again I'd uphold the free return on another bitch for the future even if you came back a few years down the line.

I'd want to be as fair as possible :)