Hi all,

I have a litter of 5 day olds and one of the pups is not nursing as vigorously as the others. He is not gaining like the others either. He does latch and does feed but just not with the strength of the others. It's not terribly obvious and my husband thinks he is doing ok ( and he has a fair bit of experience) but you know that feeling when you can see that they are just not as they should be but it's very subtle.

I don't want to jump too soon into supplement feeding him as she has enough for everyone and I am ensuring he doesn't get knocked off once latched. I feel the formula will not be as good for him as the bitch's....what are your thoughts please? I have some colostrum that says can be used up until 3 weeks but feel I would be better keep plugging him on to a teat that has been started off by a stronger puppy.

He is having nutridrops every 6 hours,don't know if I can safely give them more frequently? Did phone vets who were bl**dy useless...I know you ladies here will understand far more what I am asking!!

Anyway sorry for rambling...lack of sleep and I want to make the right decisions for him so appreciate your thoughts. At what stage would you involve the vet for trying antibiotics etc? I don't want to jump into this unless necessary especially with my vet being over half an hour drive away and don't want the pup away from heat lamp for too long...

Thankyou to anyone who has experience of this x

I had a little dot of a puppy that seemed to be much weaker than her siblings. i was sure that her weight gain was not a patch on the others, but when I looked at in percentage terms rather than actual ounces gained I was surprised how well she was doing. She was content between feeds, gravitated toward mommy and siblings without issue and although much smaller than the others looked plump and well. I supported her exactly as you are with nutridrops and protecting the teat whilst she fed.

On the other hand, in another litter I had a boy who at birth was the same weight as others, but just never really seemed to get going. Even with extra milk, antibiotics, puppystim and nutridrops mother nature had different plans for him and he passed at eight days old. He always looked skinny, was always a distance away from his siblings, and was at times ignored by an excellent mommy.

Sometimes, because we spend 24 hours with the litter our tiredness makes us interpret the smallest change or action out of proportion, so the very subtle change you are feeling may be just a combination of nerves, adrenalin and lack of sleep. i do hope this is the case.

I would suggest that if the puppy is increasing in weight at a consistent % growth, looks content, is being accepted within the sibling group, is a nice colour and "plump" then I would not intervene with either supplement feeding or antibiotics at the moment. However, if the puppy does not tick all of these boxes then a course of synulux would be my next course of action.

With regards to travel, i have always used a hot water bottle in a box underneath a blanket to keep pup nice and warm if I have had to make vet trips. Wishing you and the puppy all the very best.

On the one hand I had a tiny puppy last year, just about half the size of the others, I supplemented him for a couple of days and then made sure when he latched on that he was not pushed off by the others. He thrived and was the first one selected for his new home, he reached full size albeit later than the others and was the first one to escape from the whelping box. On the other hand I also had a puppy that did not thrive and much as I tried, I took her to the vet at 6 days to be told that she was not "comfortable" I chose to do the kindest thing. Only you know your puppies and it is so difficult, but please do not let the wee thing suffer.

> On the other hand I also had a puppy that did not thrive and much as I tried, I took her to the vet at 6 days to be told that she was not "comfortable" I chose to do the kindest thing. Only you know your puppies and it is so difficult, but please do not let the wee thing suffer.

I'd have to agree with this.   Are you weighing them all - daily?   Is he weak, or just small?    I'd have to say mum's milk is always best however, so as long as you latch him onto a middle teat, ahead of the others, with luck he should keep up.   Is he being pushed off and getting chilled - a morbidly chilled puppy won't nurse, with the obvious conclusion.   Has he been checked for abnormalities by your vet?

It is possible that if you did more than one mating, this puppy is the result of the second mating, so may just not be quite as advanced as his siblings, in which case he should catch up?

It is possible that if you did more than one mating, this puppy is the result of the second mating, so may just not be quite as advanced as his siblings, in which case he should catch up?

Somewhat confused by this. Lots of conflicting arguments. As far as I am aware, there is just one ovulation and bearing in mind that the dogs sperm can live up to five days, them why would puppies not all conceive at the same time?

I don't want to jump too soon into supplement feeding him as she has enough for everyone and I am ensuring he doesn't get knocked off once latched. I feel the formula will not be as good for him as the bitch's....what are your thoughts please?

If it was my pup, I'd top up with a bottle. There is no harm in it. It's just helping him along, not taking over fully. As soon as you hit 2 weeks you can start the pups on solid food and then everything becomes easier.

Thankyou all for your replies.

Darwinawards..thankyou for your kind words...just what I needed today! I did take him into vets tonight as he was quite dehydrated which was what was worrying me. The vet as expected was pretty hopeless, not someone I would have liked to have seen at the practise, so nothing gained from that.

So, I am supplement feeding him with whepi and giving nutridrops every 6 hours. He is latching I think a bit tighter now,pushing his way in to the milk bar and doesn't look quite so bony over the hips.

To answer a few of your questions yes,no chance of chilling, box well heated with heat lamp same as I have done for my previous 12 litters, no chance of being from a later mating as only one mating( I don't actually believe you get different age pups myself), not being bullied off by littermates as I am holding him and shielding him from being pushed off...he just doesn't seem to be as strong as the others and his suck reflex is not very strong.

Any success stories of puppies like this would be appreciated.....he doesn't not seem to be in any discomfort and we will work round the clock to help him.

Thankyou for all opinions and experiences x

> Lots of conflicting arguments. As far as I am aware, there is just one ovulation and bearing in mind that the dogs sperm can live up to five days, them why would puppies not all conceive at the same time?

My understanding is the same.  Even if a bitch is mated by different dogs the pups are all conceived at the same time.

3 a.m not having any luck getting pup to take from bottle teat. He is latching mum stronger and he looks plumper. He is 30 grams heavier now than he was this afternoon.
I am worried that if I force the issue with the supplement feeding from bottle I could cause him to have fluid in his lungs. I have a catac feeder and can't get an ideal flow...it either drips out or if you're not careful flows too quickly when you release your thumb. I am trying to drip about half a teaspoon in and hope he swallows some but most is going down his chin. Any tips greatfully received as have not much experience bottle feeding. He really is not keen,will not suck bottle teat at all but if put on mum gets stuck in now...wondering if I would be better just keep plugging him on mum. Oh, and vet said just keep getting bottle milk into him, you can't over do it but my feeling is that this could cause him to have the runs and get further dehydrated or aspirate to his lungs.....can't see it's right to over feed him so have stuck to the 5 ml maximum recommend by whelpi

Thankyou for any advice....it's so hard to think straight when it's your own litter x

When they are frail BUT still got a good suck ...I hold the puppy up to feed,often in the palm of my hand,
it reduces the effort therefore the calorie expenditure.
When you are clinging onto life..every little helps.

In this way you can supervise every feed and if mum has sufficient milk, no top up is required.
I've just reared an 80g puppy without top up..mum had great and copious milk and as you say...upset tummy and dehydration can kill them

Thanks Toolz,

He has a weaker suck than he should but can still latch and will suck....I am doing as you suggest holding him up level and will carry on doing this. I'm thinking of using an eye dropper to drip some whelpi into his mouth to keep him hydrated as well. Feel very uneasy forcing him with a bottle when he's struggling against it and as we all know vets can't be trusted to give the right advice sometimes when it comes to breeding.

I would far rather go by the opinions and experience on here...thankyou x

Unless you have antibiotic drops on hand, I'd do anything OTHER than risk aspiration pneumonia.

If he is gaining over an ounce in a day then he is getting there, and nothing beats mothers milk.

I'd stop trying the top ups which will be harder for his digestion and get him on Mum every chance you get, waking him when others are asleep.

Thankyou Toolz and Brainless,

I would feel happier doing it your way. He has gained around 40 grams since yesterday afternoon although it is hard to be accurate with these didital scales and moving pup. By eye he looks better to me.

Do you think a few drops into the side of his mouth by dropper would be safe...he is still a bit dehydrated but I am not going to bottle him. He so wants to feed,pushes his way in but where the others gorge them selves and then drop off and crawl away he will stay there for ages still trying...it's like he just can't get enough to fill his needs due to his weaker suck. I will keep plugging him on while the others are sleeping.

Thanks again x

You can certainly overdo it, no question about it, so if he is GAINING, no matter how little, don't bother. If he is not gaining or losing, top up. It's only for just over a week. For a weak pup I would just put a drop of milk on the tongue at a time and not expect them to suckle at all. I always use syringes, cannot get to grips with bottles -but then I spent 25 years breeding almost 80 litters of kittens and in at least two thirds of those litters I had to top some up so I can syringe feed in my sleep -although puppies are very different to kittens as their mouths are so different.

I saved a Papillon puppy over Christmas. He was very small when born, and his mother rejected him 100 %. (She accepted his sister as there were two pups.) Would not let him anywhere near her. I was able to foster him onto another bitch but she had four pups literally THREE times bigger despite being just a week older, so he would never get enough from her.  I managed to get milk into him and he grew, then at 3 weeks of age he got ill and would not take any (that's where one drop on the tongue at a time came in), also we got antibiotics from the vet as something was clearly wrong, and I gave him Life Aid several times a day. He was so ill, I remember sitting here looking at him just knowing he was dying and it was awful. But the Life Aid perked him up a lot (it's similar to Nutridrops but for cows and VERY VERY cheap, and my vet said it was fine to use which I had done for years anyway) and eventually he got stronger.

He is now coming up to 6 months of age and he's a perfectly normal puppy, absolutely full of it -he is CONVINCED he is a Malinois and not a Papillon, he is one of the gang of big dogs, they're his best friends, and he's my little shadow. I called him Mickey as he was small as a mouse and black and white and of course I could never sell him. After I lost my dog in a million last year, a Mali, I had felt like I had no dog that was all MINE as all the others like the rest of the family as much as they like me, whereas my old girl had been all mine and that never changed. Then Mickey came along and suddenly my special ALL MINE dog is a tiny little Papillon and I can't explain how much he means to me. You'd NEVER think now that he was bottlefed and tiny and weak.

Edited to say: The Life Aid is easier to get into pups and it will prevent dehydration.

"Impregnation

Impregnation occurs when a female dog mates with a male, and his sperm fertilises one or more of her eggs. As well as fertilisation, the egg must implant into the nutrient-rich lining of the womb, where it will begin to develop into the ultimate puppies. As the bitch produces several eggs during ovulation and they can remain viable for fertilisation for several days, it is entirely possible that once one egg has been fertilized and implanted within the womb, other eggs remain viable for fertilisation too."
Source - Pets4Homes

As I wasn't sure what I was talking about (!! - what I think I know gets challenged all the time around here) I searched and found the above.

Mamababs....the embyros don't implant until 21 days....I guess that is why they all implant together regardless of being fertilised at different times. The first egg would not have fertilised and implanted way before the others as it wont implant for 3 weeks ....the other eggs would have been well past it by then if not fertilised. This is from the book of the bitch....probably a more reliable source than pet4homes. Interesting though

> he just doesn't seem to be as strong as the others and his suck reflex is not very strong.<br />

I am not a breeder but I have been a breastfeeding mum. My breastfeeding group recommended breast compression to speed up the flow of milk and it is not painful. Maybe this could be adapted to work with your bitch? Gently press then release the breast tissue between fingers and thumb just back from the nipple as the pup is suckling. Your pup will get more milk for less effort. Hope this doesn't sound too crazy!

Wait for the other to instigate maximum 'let down' of milk flow then ensure baby is fully latched.
This saves all the pummelling and potentially missing out on the gush.
If the pup is truly dehydrated boiled/cooled water is safest but I think you will find that a full tummy of mothers finest should do the trick.
As has been said, if gaining..leave alone.. just breast milk.

My protocol for weaklings is the advice above...plus antibiotic cover, bolus of Ringers soln under the skin and live natural yogurt plus nutridrops.

But I appreciate most vets are pants at this stuff and mine comes here..I wouldn't ever take an ailing tiny to a vets surgery

Lunamoona.....thankyou...I have been doing just that today,trying to copy what a strong pup would do with the paddling and it certainly makes him keener. Thankyou for clarifying i'm doing the right thing.

Goldmali......thankyou....I find the bottle feeding worrying and have now got a dropper in case he gets weaker again....I guess I can use this in a similar way to a syringe? If my scales are right and god it's hard to be accurate with these damn digital things, he has gained 60 grams in just under 24 hours and he certainly looks plumper....being hopeful but realistic x

Thanks Toolz......you guys put vets to shame

You're doing a grand job

> probably a more reliable source than pet4homes

Quite possibly - I don't go for that website normally, but I felt it went at least some way to support my understanding of all this - and I've only been breeding between the years 1979 - 1997.   Hey ho.   As I say, never to late   Clearly I'm an 'old wife' .... crawls back into hole.

he has gained 60 grams in just under 24 hours

I don't know the size of your breed and suppose it might be different if it is a giant breed but I'd be ENTIRELY happy with this gain for my large breed that is around 25 kilos as adults for bitches.

Yes, Goldmali, mine are around 25 as adults ( think Andrex!) Thankyou for that....it is really hard to be accurate with the sensitive digital scales...think I may have to go back to the dial ones and weigh in ounces.

Just by eye and energy I can see improvement....I even just mistook him for his litter brother at a glance so feeling positive. Now getting stressy if any of the other look slightly less plump. I have two monsters in the litter,very big pups,very strong and incredibly greedy....I am thinking they may be emptying some glands before the others can fill up but then again I guess they will increase milk production.....aarrgghhh.....overthinking again

I have a tiny pup at the moment - he was getting pushed out of the way, so I've had to intervene.   We are tube feeding, which I find is much more successful, as he was taking forever to get an insufficient amount from a bottle, and I was worried about inhalation pneumonia..

He's a little soldier now - trying to latch on to Mum but not very successfully.    He's on ABs and colostrum as well as Welpi, and the little bit he can manage out of Mum.     

You do need to slightly underfeed the amounts given on many charts - I rather overdid it at one feed, and had a crying pup with colic - had to use Infacol (too thick - gripe water would have been better) and actually had to tube the excess out - not recommended!

He is naturally going to the warmest part of the box - they say that if it is caused by CHV they need to be very warm indeed to kill the virus.

Jo

Jo....thankyou for your reply.

Tube feeding frightens me although I fully understand you doing it....I don't think I know what I'm doing enough to risk it.He is latching,paddling and quivering his little tail now so must be getting some flow through. Looks a different pup to yesterday,will still get knocked off teat if not careful but dropping off and sleeping now rather than carrying on trying to fee which makes me feel he's fuller and content.

Yes, I have heard that about the virus...I always keep my box very warm mainly for that reason but did raise the lamp a bit as I was concerned about his dehydration but there's plenty of room to crawl away from the heat so I may lower it in case.

I appreciate the advice on not over feeding....the damn vet I saw said just get as much as you can into him...you can't over do it,shrugged and said he's probably just a 'fading puppy..the right age'....vets need muzzling when it comes to breeding.

This is my 12th litter and it's such a lonely feeling when something goes wrong...you just know that in most cases the vets are going to have no idea and without the support on here I could well have lost my puppy. For now he is plumper,stronger and heavier thanks to your help x

As I understand it all the fertilised eggs reach a certain number of cell divisions and implant, so puppies cannot be different ages, will not more than a few hours.

A bitch ovulates over at most 2 days and the eggs stay viable for only about 2 days after they mature (two days after ovulation) so there can't be a big age difference between pups regardless when the bitch was mated.

To be honest, although we used to tube feed lambs and calves in a past life, I had never needed to tube a pup.   Of course I didn't have a tube on hand.       It was an emergency - Sunday night job.   Vets' emergency number out of order, so had to phone a friend, who is a nurse there.      Luckily she reported it , and the vet nearest the surgery sorted us out (and his phone lines!!!).    They didn't have a feeding tube, but we have a catheter tube,which is working very well indeed.

Once you have the instructions, it's really very easy, and worth learning about for another time.      The only thing is that if you mix the milk at the right temperature, it's always cold by the time it gets to the pup, but found that with bottling as well.

BTW - always make sure a pup is hydrated and warm before attempting to feed by whatever means.

Jo

> he is CONVINCED he is a Malinois and not a Papillon, he is one of the gang of big dogs, they're his best friends,

That is so lovely to hear.  I've not seen it since I lost my eldest Bearded Collie.  She was the matriarch in the pack.  I have so many photos of tiny Chihuahua puppies crawling over her.  She used to lay down flat to make it easier for them.  Even when she lay perfectly still you could still see the end of her tail going.  She wouldn't move while puppies fell asleep all over her.  It took a long time for my vet to truly understand the connection between such totally different sized dogs. 

Marianne I am so very pleased that you have such a bond with this little guy. 

My old girl was all mine and I know the feeling of losing a dog in a million.

How's the puppy doing?
I've got a young litter and it's been hard work with weaker ones and as mum doesn't have sufficient milk for all I've had to supplement.
These little ones were born early so it's been really hard work, I'm essentially on my own and mum is a little lazy so in also stimulating them as she doesn't like Poo!!
Thank goodness for my friends who have offered help and been around for advice and also for coming to help too.

Hi Suejaw and everyone else who has helped me.....well the little guy is not so little. He is plump and if my weighing is accurate as it's not easy with the digital scales he has gained 100 grams in 32 hours. He is feeding a lot stronger and I am trying to be at every feed to make sure he's well on when the milk is let down. Really worth the effort when you see the change in him. Still giving him nutridrops every 6 hours though.

Suejaw....sorry to hear you've had problems..hope all your hard work soon pays off. How old are your litter and how early were they? It must be hard to know how much to supplement as you want them to feed off mum to encourage her to make more milk but can't leave hungry pups...good luck.

So pleased to hear that he is doing a little better....

Oh that's great news to hear he is improving, keep at it.
Mine were 2 days early but we can't be sure which mating she took on so anything from 2-4 days early. They are all gaining weight and I've had a number of breeder friends to hand to help me and guide me through this as it's also my first litter.
I just make sure that the smaller and while not weaker as such but smaller in weight and less greedy ones get onto mum first and then I put the bigger ones to her to do the pee and then do I do the pooing as even when I smeared a wee but of butter on the area she licked that off and one starting pooing so she pulled away :-/
Also give them a bit of supplement while they wait for their turn as we have a large litter and not enough nipples to go around. The larger ones will push the others off the hind nipples if allowed.

Once smaller ones have stopped on mum I then do their stimulation and too up on the feeds.
They are 4 days old today and it's only me here so I'm knackered..

Hi all,

Just updating on my little man....he is doing very well I'm still watching him carefully at each feed ( well,admit to missing one or two at night) and he is latching well and hanging on for the 'gush'. He is also now dropping off and crawling away content which he wasn't doing.

I have been giving him Nutridrops every 6 hours for 3 days now.....I don't know if I should give it long term or stop/lessen it now he's stronger. Can you over use it?

SueJaw.....hope you are getting on ok and your pups are thriving.

The glucose in the drops gives a few extra calories but if you think he's full then I'd phase them out.
Sounds like he's here to stay...a great success!

Thankyou Toolz.....I think you are right. He's a different pup now......it will be a tearful day when he goes to his new home that's for sure!

I will phase them out and thanks again for your support and experience x

All are gaining weight well and we have good milk so no need for top ups. My friend dropped by earlier and said how my girl was dripping milk, she found it odd that I was pleased with this lol
Still pooing them as even with butter on the bums she would stop at the sight of poo... Roll on when they can go themselves :-)
Glad your little one is on the up x

Hi all,

I just wanted to updated you all on my little man and to thank you for helping me through a difficult time. He is looking super! Feeding strongly,in fact I've just been watching him feeding from Mum while she is sitting up and he hanging on like a bat!! I have slowly reduced the amount of help I gave him during feeds and just watched him to make sure he was not knocked off as I wanted him to learn to push his way in and gain confidence that he could do it.

So,thankyou again.It was so lonely sat with him in the middle of the night and you lovely ladies really held my hand

Great news.

Fantastic news and well done to you. Great to see and read all your support given on here. sorry I'd been away so couldn't see thread before but hope he carries on thriving.

Hi bucksmum, I've also got a smally in my litter - although the pup was never weak, just low birth weight.  Just curious as to what the weight of your pup was at birth and then one week, if you don't mind saying.  Just looking for a bit of reassurance on mine really.  He's fine, but really was a lot smaller/lighter than his littermates at birth. I'm helping to ensure he gets the back teats, but other than that not doing too much else.  And hoping he will catch up more once I start weaning....

The litter my dog came from had a smaller pup. When she came out she didn't start breathing and needed a lot of help. Finally after what must have seemed ages to the breeders, she got going. She was noticeably smaller then all the others in the litter (10), but was fine. They decided to keep her and she is still smaller then average for the breed, but bosses her brothers around with no trouble.

Hi Kennel Maiden,

I have to confess I didn't weigh them at birth..I never have,just gone by eye and how strong each pup was and if everybody was feeding ok. It was at 5 days I noticed he was looking thinner than the rest and had a weaker latch.He was also slightly dehydrated and just not plumping up like the others.

I weighed him at 5 day and he was 326 grams ( gundog breed, think Andrex) which was a good 100 grams less than the others. But by latching and holding him on every feed day and night and Nutridrops every 6 hours he gained a whopping 60 grams over 24 hours...I think that's about just under 3 ounces. I think a lot of his problem was dehydration hence the rapid weight gain when he got strong enough to feed. I continued to weigh him but my digital scales are rubbish for weighing wrigglers and I was stressing myself  out so decided as he is looking so well,plump and as strong as the rest I will go by eye until worming this weekend.

He was weak, not just small. I have a small bitch in this litter but she has never been weak, is small but plump, and feeding well. She is catching up with the others now and just looks as you might expect a bitch pup to look size wise compared to dog pups. I've had several litters that have had smaller pups and they tend to have the biggest characters and get chosen very quickly so if he's healthy,feeding and growing I wouldn't worry.

Good luck

Oh that's fantastic x

Suejaw.....How are you getting on?

Thanks, that's interesting. I have similar Andrex type ;)  and my smally was pretty much the same weight at that day, but that's around 250-300g less than the other 'heavies'!!  This pup is not a weakling though, and can suck fine.  Just a lot smaller/lighter.  On day 14 it is now around 900g, whereas my heaviest is around 1450g!  I do think they will even out more once on solids. And I am actually starting to think that it is just the other pups that are abnormally heavy in this litter!!! LOL