I'm curious after reading one thread regarding an accidental litter produced by a Golden Retriever and a Greyhound, a few said cull litter, few said puppies hard to be homed others said will make lovely pets. I kept thinking and questions round my head are,  Are all cross bred puppies seen by the professional world as no-no's?  An abhorrent to be rid of? We have yes, lots of designer fluffettes and such with Cockapoo, Labradoodle,  yet we have a few that are accepted a golden Retriever and Labrador, why is this acceptable and not others? The Sprocker has really seen a large force of people breeding and campaigning for it to be recognised a local breeder here working hard to push for recognition,, plus large, large numbers of Heinz 57 breeds of dogs in homing centres!  Should these said dogs have been pts straight away? What are acceptable cross breed  puppies? Have any of our modern breeds started as  an accidental cross breed? Are not all puppies entitled to life unless not healthy? Yes I know too many abandoned but what is the answer?
I know it's a touchy subject but I'm in the dark and genuinely would like to know the why's, reasons against/for from both pro and con groups.
hope a good debate

I personally don't have any problems with mongrels or crossbreds. Infact I quite like rough haired Lurchers & probably would have one if I didn't show at KC shows!
What I don't like is those who have got on the bandwagon of the labradoodle(which the 'founder breeder' regrets ever doing!) & A) charging astronomical prices for them (quite often a hell of a lot more than the pedigrees of the crosses they used). & B) using the stupid names, pretending they are a breed & people who buy think they are a breed, rather than the cross that they are! Sprocker is one of the few that has been around for a long time & I remember seeing adverts for them back as a child in the early 80's. And finally & probably my biggest bugbare, the HUGE misconception that joe public have, that a cross is going to be a healthy dog just because its not a pedigree...WRONG!!
There are some other things that I have missed but I am sure some others will pick up on.

You could argue that Golden Retrievers started out as crossbreeds, if you read the history. However, there has been a century of consistency in the breed and, as with others breeds, a breed standard to adhere to and a function to fulfil. I have a photo of my Grandad with one of the very earliest GRs. Modern crossbreeds seem to occur at the whim of the owner/breeder with no real thought(IMO) beyond 'ooh that'll look cute' and with no real idea of the appearance/function if any of the next generation. I am not an expert, as you know genetics is not my thing and I don't breed myself, but I love the variety of breeds we have already, some of which are diminishing in numbers rapidly, so why faff about with trendy crossbreeds, shouldn't we concentrate on maintaining quality in the breeds we already have?

Are all cross bred puppies seen by the professional world as no-no's? 

I would have thought "the professionals" are the ones that have no problem with them. i.e. the vets, the puppy farmers etc. Nobody else in dogs is a professional!

A good crossbred puppy would be one that has been bred from fully health tested parents and for a PURPOSE. As that purpose cannot be showing, it would have to be working ability, such as the crosses that are carried out be the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, or occasionally by the police and army and gundog people. Just producing puppies to sell because they are cute and make money is NEVER a good reason, and it doesn't matter the slightest then whether they are crossbred or pedigree. As long as parents are health tested with proven good temperaments, buyers carefully vetted and given lifetime support, and pups produced for a real purpose, then it shouldn't matter what they are. But you will find there is no such thing as a proper purpose for most of the designer crossbreeds to be produced -you won't see the Cocker x Poodles used for gundog work or police dogs, as just one simple example. The Labrador x Poodle started out as an experiment to produce guide dogs for people with allergies so that was absolutely fine -but the whole point was it FAILED and now they are just produced to make money.

I think it's more that there are so many crosses (mongrels for lack of a better word! Not that breeders see it like that!) in shelters that why alow breeding of them when there are living ones in shelters that will be euthanised or left there for the rest of their lives.

> Are all cross bred puppies seen by the professional world as no-no's?

Main issues (though not in this case of the Goldie x Grey accident) there are fewer these days that are true accidents.

So that said I object to any irresponsible breeding that is not done with full health testing to maximise a healthy outcome (the above mentioned litter, the dam is full health tested and sire one of the few breeds that really doesn't need hip and elbow scoring).

Secondly I feel that it is important that a dog and owners needs are most well matched, increasing the chance of a lifelong good match.  This is best done by knowing the likely traits of the canine and matching the breed to the owners preferences, home and lifestyle.

For example the Elkhound cross collie litter of pups will suit neither someone who wants collie traits or those that admire the Elkhound.  The self willed independent traits are interfering with the high trainability owner co-operation traits of the Border Collie, and are adding too much 'go' to the Elkhounds self willed hunting instincts, and unfortunately sharpening the usually mellow easy going temperament (may be the particular collie sire).

Crosses between similar breeds with similar purposes and character traits, is not so much of an issue.

Two Spaniels, Retrievers or even two sight hounds etc, are far more likely to be fairly predictable re character traits and drives and needs.  Ditto even some of the small companion breeds, though some of the coats are likely to be problematic, but many are breeds that need professional groomers as pe5ts regardless of breed or cross.

The worst crosses are those of very different breeds.  A beagle and Pug for example, short faced exercise compromised lapdog with an active hunting hound????

Also as a bitch only owner, when putting my girls at risk I want their breeding potential maximised.

Why would I waste the few breeding opportunities of my health tested typical breed representative/excellent qualities on producing a litter of crossbreeds? 

Any crossbreed advantages are lost beyond the first cross, so they are in effect a dead end and their only purpose is as pets with unpredictable traits.

Over half of the breeds recognised by the Kennel Club only make up 2% of KC registrations and probably only 0.5% of the total canine population of the UK.  So every decent bitch needs to be used for helping maintain her own breed, and try to preserve genetic diversity.

There will be plenty of pups from any well planned litter to be purely companions for those not interested in doing anything else, (and the whole litter are of course companions first and foremost) and at least their traits can be fairly accurately predicted.

I agree with lots of the points raised here. Why did the breeder who "designed/created" the Labra-doodle  decide to do it apart from a possible anti allergies point of view (surely thou many short haired or silk coat breeds already established cover this?) If said breeder regretted decision would it not have been pulled the breeding programme? Did the US President by having one not set a trend?
I see lots of new pictures of Spoodles now and a colleague recently brought one because they were so cute

Did the US President by having one not set a trend?

He doesn't he has a Portuguese Water Dog

I agree with lots of the points raised here. Why did the breeder who "designed/created" the Labra-doodle  decide to do it apart from a possible anti allergies point of view (surely thou many short haired or silk coat breeds already established cover this?) If said breeder regretted decision would it not have been pulled the breeding programme? Did the US President by having one not set a trend?

I will find the link to the article, but he was asked for a guide dog for an allergic person, tried a Standard Poodle and found it was not suitable (for the work), so crossed a Larbador with a Poodle. Like I said it wasn't a success, and back then he couldn't even get people wanting to puppy walk his crossbreeds as nobody wanted crosses, so he came up with the name Labradoodle to try to gain interest. He deeply regrets it now! But yes, the breeding programme was discontinued as it simply did not work -the great majority of the pups produced were NOT hypoallergenic at all so not suitable for those allergic.

The American president never did get a Labradoodle, his dog is a Portuguese Water Dog.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201404/designer-dog-maker-regrets-his-creation

Oops I thought Obama had a Labradoodle☺

Wow interesting to read the reference created "A Frankenstein". Are there still then breeders for Labradoodle? 
Not seen a Cockapoo  but dislike the name. So why are people paying fortunes for designer hybrids?

I had a friend who said they would never buy a miniature poodle but would happily have a cockapoo. Their reasoning was because "poodles were posh pansy dogs and not very fun". My family have poodles and I couldn't stress how far from the truth her reasons were. She didn't believe me :(

People dont actually know the individual qualities of these breeds they are crossing. Funnily people who want labradoodles often list their reasons - and every point is a characteristic of the poodle. Yet they don't want one. They want a labradoodle. It just trend!

> So why are people paying fortunes for designer hybrids?

I think people like something different (certainly true for me but I went for uncommon purebreds) and I doubt the average man in the street could name more than 20 breeds.

Perhaps with 200+ breed to choose from in the UK alone someone should be able to find something suitable, and in the less well known (so fairly uncommon/rare) breeds they are more likely to find breedrs who prime interest is their breed, and not just producing puppies to sell.

So often crossbred is casually/irresponsibly bred. Yes this can apply to purebred too.

It doesn't help that those who dislike pedigree dogs and dogs shows, other canine pastimes, and breeders especially will continually push the often erroneous message of crossbreeds are healthier and adopt don't buy from a breed5r.

What they forget those rescue dogs have more than likely been bred by someone not as careful as a good breeder and perhaps been badly homed, so ended up in rescue in the first place.  Good breeders will endeavour to re-home dogs they have bred privately.

So why are people paying fortunes for designer hybrids?

1. Because they have a funny name.
2. Because celebrities have them.
3. Because the breeders of them claim they are non shedding and healthier than pedigree dogs (none of it true).
4. Because they typically cost a lot more than a wellbred pedigree dog, and as they are so expensive people see them as a status symbol.

The Wonder of dogs BBC 2 on now is talking about selective breeding. Probably will be on iplayer, it is a repeat.

A lady who I see often over my local park has a Labradoodle,apparently you get different sizes of them just like Poodles,her bitch is the largest type and liver in colour,lovely dog who's friendly with everybody she meets be it human or dog. They did do some research on various Labradoodle breeders and wanted 1 due to the no shedding claim,whether the breeder they chose health tested or not I have no idea but they paid over £1200 for their dog!!! Since having the dog the owner has said that she didn't realise how much grooming this dog would require,they have her clipped a couple of times a year and she said they do brush her but every time she visits the groomers they say that her coat is matted underneath so obviously only the top part of her coat is being brushed/combed. She's nearly 4yrs old now and I know that the dog has got some kind of problem with her hip or leg but I'm not sure on what the problem actually is as I haven't seen her for a while,I know that the dog had previously under gone surgery for this problem and she was saying how expensive it was. I love all dogs but paying over £1200 for a x breed is absolutely ridiculous. Over my local park there is 1Cockerpoo,2Labradoodles and a lady who has 2 Cavapoos that I know of and there becoming more popular by the minute but the prices that they've paid for these dogs is astronomical,much much more than what they would have paid for a pedigree dog with heath tested parents. Silly!!

Since having the dog the owner has said that she didn't realise how much grooming this dog would require,they have her clipped a couple of times a year and she said they do brush her but every time she visits the groomers they say that her coat is matted underneath so obviously only the top part of her coat is being brushed/combed.

This is such a good point. They want these crossbreeds due to wanting a non shedding coat. Well in other words they want a POODLE coat, and a Poodle needs clipping, at the groomers, every 6 weeks! With brushing at home in between, of course. Twice a year simply will never be enough. And the bigger the dog the more expensive it will be! Which a good Poodle breeder would point out to all puppy buyers, but it seems the crossbreeders conveniently forget to tell their buyers this.

From my experience the problem seems to be the word or term grooming.  Now when I asked about grooming I meant all of it but the breeders I asked took it to mean clipping so in reply to my question how often does the dog need to be groomed the reply came every 6-8 weeks.  This was poodle as well as poodle x breeders. 

This was after discussing health tests etc which they did, we wouldn't have got as far as talking about grooming if they hadn't.  I can't workout whether I used the wrong term grooming or not but what else is brushing and combing called?

The Australian Labradoodles are all neutered before going to their new homes at 9 weeks.  These seem to be the most expensive ones.  £1500 + I'm wondering what health/behavioural issues they will have because of the early neuturing.

omg 9 weeks ! good point about grooming too

9 weeks!!!   

That is totally wrong.  I am disgusted.

Neutered at 9 weeks
that's just so wrong!

As a groomer I have experience of grooming these so called "designer dogs". I did actually lose a client as it took me 5 , yes five hours to get rid of all the matts, not at one go I must add as I would not put any dog through that. She wanted him fluffy so he would look like the breed standard (didn't know there was a breed standard for a cockerpoo). His coat was appalling as it was wiry and matted so easily. When I explained that it was his cross breeding that had caused the problem, she took the huff and I have not seen her since. Lovely dog with good temperament but crap coat. This dog was a first cross and looked like a hairy terrier type. I also groom a "cockerpoo" ( and still do) who looks like and has a coat like a poodle but has long ears. Again a first cross. How on earth can breeders of these crossbreeds make any claims when they do not know how they will turn out. When I asked the owners about health tests, they looked at me blankly. Just a money making excercise. Sorry....rant over.

I think you are entitled to rant! They've chosen a dog, with no real understanding of how to look after it properly and then expect you to make it right when the poor little blighter's coat ends up in a mess!!

I have a friend who has a Yorkie x Chihuahua.  It is Black and Tan.  Apart from that it has a harsh wiry coat, short legs, long back and huge sticky up ears.  It looks nothing like either of it's supposed parents, it is much bigger than either of those breed
.  But it is the most lovely dog and she is very loved.

No they shouldn't be put down, but for me, accidents apart, it would be better that they shouldn't be conceived in the first place.

This article is worth a read I think - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2564373/The-hidden-suffering-dogs-bred-cute-Adorable-looks-Cuddly-names-like-Labradoodle-But-trend-cross-breed-dogs-raises-disturbing-questions.html

It is a subject that bring out a lot of 'emotion' but again for me, the biggest no-no lies in the fact that BYBs are the people doing this, using often untested stock that was originally sold as just a pet.   Only top quality animals should be used in a breeding programme and logic should suggest that these breeds are not that.   And further, that whereas in the past, when the various breeds were being developed, they were done for a reason, hunting, herding, guarding, just companions and so on, these days BYBs are doing it for MONEY.

Of course every puppy produced needs a good permanent loving home, but rather than pay a BYB for a mix-bred puppy, it has to be far better to adopt from a Shelter, if 'breed' isn't essential.   If I'd spent years developing a breed like the Golden or Labrador, I'd not be happy to see them bred together.

I'd suggest very few of the breeds we have today, started out as an accident in the way you suggest.    Most were carefully selected for the qualities needed.    IF BYBs used sound, typical stock and TESTED before they mixed, then I might be more accepting of this kind of breeding.   And for sure, IF breeders producing purebred animals were the same, this might help redress the many people who suggest that all purebred dogs have problems.  Which is, for me, an urban myth.   Most reputable breeders don't set out to produce cripples, physically or mentally.  If problems do appear (and all livestock breeding can throw up the unexpected), good breeders know not to repeat that mating, and head off in another direction.

ps  I'm just getting over seeing the pictorial result of a Chow Chow X Norfolk Terrier.   It's a pity the puppy is so darned cute, but clearly his coat alone will give any groomer nightmares.

> but I love the variety of breeds we have already, some of which are diminishing in numbers rapidly, so why faff about with trendy crossbreeds, shouldn't we concentrate on maintaining quality in the breeds we already have?

TOTALLY AGREE!!!!

And why do people buy into mix/designer breeding?..... because they are being conned into thinking they are buying something that will be 'healthier than purebred dogs' - so not, and that hanging a fancy name on these mixes makes them special - again so not.   And that they are 'rare' - so not!

The fact that people even come up with ludicrous term like 'CavaPoo' makes them seem worthy. They should be referred to as 'mongrels', which is all they are.
Inflated prices also make them more appealing to those who have more money than sense.

There are many breeders of purebreds who breed with no real goal in mind though other than them just making good family pets. So I'm not sure I agree that it's ok for purebred breeders to be breeding 'just' pets and the crossbreed breeders being slammed for the same thing.

I did quite a few searches for crossbreed breeders as a result of subjects like this, and I've come across some really good Labradoodle breeders, some who do breed for 'working/training' purposes and fully health tested dogs with waiting lists for their puppies etc. None I found via free ad sites. If you only base your 'knowledge' of such breeders from those sites you're going to have a skewed view of their intentions to begin with. Cockerpoos have their own 'club' of sorts which also provides more info and breeders that are doing things right as far as they can be doing with crossbreeds. In all these searches I found, not one of these breeders stated their dogs were purebred, purely hypoallergenic, or non moulting and seemed to at least provide some honest background info.
However, I am yet to come across really good breeders of other popular mixes. Perhaps because most of the other 'designer' mixes are more one off breeding's where Labradoodles and Cockerpoos ( like it or not ) are more established.

I'm all for responsible, ethical, breeding of both purebreds and crossbreeds.

Dogloverlou, I think your comments are fair,

Apart from all the previous comments re: grooming not going into at purchase stages (I agree my groomer also complains about the Poo's coats always being mated.)

You know what it is, it's the exuberant prices, some breeds warrant a high price tag because they don't have many in a litter or whelping is extremely difficult in breeds like the Bulldog etc, a higher price tag is understandable, but why and where do the prices come from for some of these x-breeds? (More expensive than pedigrees from reputable breeders) This is why it may go from someone wishing to create a cross for a certain purpose......... to a scam, there is no warranting for the prices. It is why these crosses with fancy names leave a nasty taste in ones mouth.

Must admit I feel that the Labradoodle is not so popular now, (in the pet world) haven't seen any for a long time.......the Cockerpoo more so, must admit some are very pretty dogs, but the coats hummmmm, but I think a lot of these crosses will have their day over the next 10 years, they are not turning out to be what their owners thought.

There are many breeders of purebreds who breed with no real goal in mind though other than them just making good family pets. So I'm not sure I agree that it's ok for purebred breeders to be breeding 'just' pets and the crossbreed breeders being slammed for the same thing.

Like I said in my early reply, I find it TOTALLY unacceptable to breed ANY dog for no real reason- and just churning out pets is NOT a good reason. Makes no difference if it is a pedigree pup or a cockadoodlepoodoodilahdidah.

"cockadoodlepoodoodilahdidah" Will this be a short haired, total allergy free, doesn't eat passports, doesn't run off, bark without being asked, walk itself dog? love the name thou.

If I get a totally matted doodleywotsit or other such fluff in I shave it, never mind the owner and I will tell them that beforehand.  I will not put a dog through dematting if it's bad, no matter what.  If they want it to look fluffy and to the "standard" - whatever the heck they think that means - then fine, but they'll have to wait while it grows back and I get it into a shape over a few subsequent visits, and they'll have to brush it (or bring it in frequently enough that I can brush it out before the mats start, I do a few that way).  If they don't like that they they can bog off!

What I really object to though - and I get it with purebreds as well as doodlywotsits - is when people's appointments are delayed for whatever reason, and they then blame me for the dog getting matted because it's overdue!  Well, deary, get off your backside and brush your dog and it won't happen, will it?

I think basic grooming/brushing/combing/check over body,eyes,ears etc is totally being ignored by owners who think because they take their dog (whatever the breed) to the groomers twice a year its the groomers job and they shouldn't have to bother.....wrong! The most common reason I hear is "He/she won't let me brush them" no they won't because the dog isn't used to being brushed. Many people used to see me grooming my old ESS and ask how do i get him to stand still long enough to be groomed,if done on a regular basis from puppyhood the dog will come to enjoy it. I always thought basic grooming was just part and parcel of owning a dog but maybe I'm wrong. Rant over.

If you don't want the 'ordeal' of grooming and the need for a groomer then get a short coated breed, yes we all know they still need a groom but the coat won't matt!!

Love the last 3 or 4 posts

cockadoodlepoodoodilahdidah" Will this be a short haired, total allergy free, doesn't eat passports, doesn't run off, bark without being asked, walk itself dog?

If it can also make me cups of tea and buy me chocolate then I might consider getting one!!

I must be very lucky in my area, I do get a few cockerpoos and Cavapoos but they are never badly matted, no more than a few knots on belly or armpit and quite frankly I have pedigrees that come in in a far worse state, the PBGV is one of my worst offenders! :-p

In our dog training class tonight, of eight dogs five were doodles of various shapes and sizes.

> If they don't like that they can bog off!

A woman after my own heart I see.