I bought a puppy from a breeder 3 years ago.    I had no papers but was given a signed note that I had purchased without papers and that they would follow.  I was very stupid in my choice of breeder .....The supposed reason for the lack of paperwork was the BVA being behind time.   
Also a piece of paper with R Endorsement and X Endorsement  ...added to this a penalty of £5000 should I breed a litter without breeders permission.

I felt there was something strange as the Deposit had already been paid by cheque and had to be made payable to his girlfriend..?? Why ?? No account.
He has recently refused to lift the Endorsements and the Penalty and has been quite rude.    No dialogue can be entertained.    6 months after buying the puppy I happened to see an article in his local newpaper that he was actually in prison until a week before I went to see the litter.  A violent offence for which he got 2 years .... out after a year.   So when the dogs were mated he was in Prison not a free man.   I find it incredulous that a person like this can be a Member of the Assured KC Breeders scheme.   I am a responsible person who in 25 years has had dogs , never bred but now feel totally duped.   I want them lifted.   Any advice ?? 

Yes looks like you were duped.
Can't see why you'd want to breed from the puppy ( assuming that's why you want the endorsements lifted) when
A....you have no paperwork
B....puppy's pedigree could be entirely false
C ....the nasty violent man feels he has a hold on you.

If you feel that the ABS is being brought into disrepute ..write to the KC with your concerns.

The paperwork came after about 6 weeks.   The Bloodlines are really good. All Champions on sires side.  He had imported a stud dog from Sweden which was obviously mated with his own bitch when he was inside.  He used to show a fair bit....but then so did I ( in another breed).    Noone is going to tell you they have just come out of prison, are they for GBH to a policeman. I paid a lot of money for the dog who he knew I wanted to show.  To my thinking the £5000 is an illegal money - making clause.

To my thinking the £5000 is an illegal money - making clause.

There's no way it could be enforced. The dog is yours, you can do what you want with it. Sure you wouldn't be able to register pups, but that's a different matter.

If it is an Assured Breeder (and have you checked they still are?) then you need to report them to the KC as there is no way they can do anything if they don't know what is going on. No AB can register pups now without having been inspected and believe me, it ISN'T all that easy to pass the inspection (I mean good breeders can, anyone dodgy -forget it) and they do check your paperwork very carefully and certainly your contract and they would not accept a contract that stated a £5000 fine.

Thank you for your advice, It made me feel less negative!  It is as I thought about the penalty clause.  If I had a litter and her bloodlines on her fathers side are too good not to continue, I would never do it unless they could be KC registered.  She needs to contribute postively to the genepool. And she has a wonderful temperament.   Interestingly there is nothing about health tests at all....he is not interested in her health obviously!!     He is definitely on the KC AB list when I checked yesterday.  The Endorsements were never explained to me. Just given to me. I never knew what X meant till I researched.   In my other breed ( Rottweiler) which I had for over 23 years ...I had 3 bitches 2 of them did not have endorsements as it people did not readily endorse then as now. And last who was born in 2002 did have endorsements ( but lifted on health and temperament tests being met) I never bred. This is because I am a cautious responsible person and I was concerned where they would go.  So I am not one to breed lightly!

Apart from the fact that if you hadn't liked the conditions of sale you should have moved on (??) I'm actually more on the side of this breeder.   Endorsements are usually put on for good reason (which shouldn't be to make money at a later date, via a fine or otherwise btw) and I sold all my immature stock (puppies) endorsed, with the one exception I made when I sold 2 to a fellow breeder, with no endorsments.   Because I trusted her.   Would that I had endorsed them - at least re being exported because when they were approaching a year, they were both sold out of the country, and only after they'd gone, was I told.   I had a stud agreement on the male.   Lesson learnt.

As for the ABS, if you have problems about this with this breeder, get in touch with the KC.    I hope the KC doesn't agree to go behind the breeder's back and lift these endorsements which presumably were there for good reason.  If the pup isn't registered, why would you want to breed her in any case?

Add -   It's true that a non-breeding endorsement only means the puppies can't be KC registered in any case.  Sadly it still means the bitch can be bred.   Just as with not for export - the dog can still be exported, but just not eligible for an Export Pedigree, so couldn't be registered with an overseas KC.

"The Endorsements were never explained to me."

This is wrong - the KC requires that all breeders explain endorsements fully to the new owner and I may be wrong, but I thought in writing, and signed.   I would just say that it's normally up to the owner of the stud dog to decide about continuing his lines.   Champions don't always produce Champions - and very often, it's the unshown/unsuccessful brother or sister who proves to be the better dog in terms of what they produce.   I do agree re contributing positively to the gene pool, giving something back to the breed.

I will contact the KC and explain fully.   Regarding the Sire....He has not done much in the Showring himself but his grandfather and great grandfather and back on both female side as well have produced wonderful progeny and had great results.  Going back to the original matter.....Money is obviously the God as he suggested 6 months ago of me putting my other bitch with his Stud dog conveniently forgetting the restrictions on her ....( Her contract is legal and she is from a reputable breeder)  all terms explained etc.   I think his stud fee is something around £2000.

As the terms of the endorsement weren't explained to you Id imagine the KC will overturn this.

Did you not complete the assured breeder 'Feedback form' that you should have got with your purple wallet with all the information that assured breeders are required to give over.

The purpose of the forms is for the KC to be able to monitor things.

As for endorsements to be upheld you would have been required to sign something that informed you of them being in place and you understood.

There of course is no endorsement to prevent you showing the dog.

If you were not given the Assured Breeder Puppy wallet with all the required details and feedback form, and have not signed acceptance and understanding of the endorsements then contact the Kennel club.

firstly to give feedback on the Assured Breeder and secondly if there is no signed acceptance and knowledge of the endorsement by you then they will not stand.

He has been an AB since 2008 I discovered on checking things out. I did rush the sale as I had lost my last dog suddenly and in tragic circumstances. I think I was stressed and it was not until 7 months later ( family illness also got in the way) that I found out he had been in prison until about 10 days before I saw the advert.  I think he probably met his litter for the 1st time when they were 6.5 weeks old.  This in itself shocks me.  He is making money from prison.  How can the KC call him an AB.   He probably thought he would never see or hear from me again.  I have a piece of paper with the endorsements on which were sent to me. Also I paid a deposit of £300 and then cash the day before I picked the puppy up. So the intention to enter into a Contract was when I paid the deposit I have heard that good breeders show their puppy contracts when prospective purchasers view the litters.

He has been an AB since 2008 I discovered on checking things out.

But has he got the green tick? Doesn't sound like he would pass on his paperwork/records and if so won't be able to register further pups under the scheme.

Forget the abs at the moment.
Re contract was this ever signed by you and him at the time of sale? I understood it has to be signed by all parties involved in the selling and purchasing of said puppy.
If sent afterwards and nothing was signed then I think you have a case to put to the KC.
I would call them and explain and see what they say and also add on your findings re this breeder and also explain showing as abs.

Also a piece of paper with R Endorsement and X Endorsement  ...added to this a penalty of £5000 should I breed a litter without breeders permission.

That constitutes a contract, if you or they break the terms of the contract either party is liable in law (conditional on you admitting in court you received it if/when in court.

I understood it has to be signed by all parties involved in the selling and purchasing of said puppy.

Paying for any property and accepting the terms of sale is a contract. "I do this if you do that"
.

Just found this as part of the abs the contract must be signed by all parties

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/14641/guidepupsalescontract.pdf

Well it sounds as if no puppy contract was signed by both parties and no signature re the endorsements, so the KC will most likely find in your favour.

Especially as all ABS breeders (whether visited under UKAS yet or not) are required to issue the puppy wallets with extensive information, worming, grooming traits of the breed etc etc, and of course include the feedback form for the owner to let the KC know their experiences.

If you had received the feedback form you would have completed it and raised your issues and the Kennel Club would have investigated and pulled him up, or removed him from the scheme.

As to him being imprisoned this really is not relevant to the issues here. Obviously his partner looked after the pups.  I am listed as a sole breeder, but my husband is just as involved as I am.

Well it sounds as if no puppy contract was signed by both parties and no signature re the endorsements,

It does not need to be signed or in writing, any oral contract or agreement is as rock solid in contract law as a signed agreement, maybe more difficult to prove without witnesses though. The current owner was given the conditions of sale at the point of sale, she accepted them & the property (the pup) at that time, now she's having second thoughts, she can change nothing from the original terms and conditions without the other parties consent.
.

It does not need to be signed or in writing, any oral contract or agreement is as rock solid in contract law

Totally irrelevant. The Kennel Club will NOT let endorsements stand unless they have it in writing, signed by breeder and purchaser.

I have actually discovered that my puppy was Registered at the KC on 13th July ... I actually took possession of the puppy on the 8th July ....a whole week later... so I dont see that he could place endorsements on a puppy that was not in his physical pssession.   Any thoughts.   But right now I am appealing to the KC.

Totally irrelevant. The Kennel Club will NOT let endorsements

You are quite right, the KC stuff is totally irellevant - it is also irrelevant to what I was talking about, which is, the £5000 the buyer (puppy owner) must pay if she breeds from the pup (see first post).

Kirsty3 wrote: "added to this a penalty of £5000 should I breed a litter without breeders permission"
.

" I have actually discovered that my puppy was Registered at the KC on 13th July.  I actually took possession of the puppy on the 8th July ...."

This being the case, then he clearly didn't follow the rules re endorsements so I can't see them being allowed to stand.   I would just say that if the dog wasn't in his possession, then registering them a week on, after you bought her, apart from the endorsement situation, is very odd, on it's own.

I think you need to discuss ALL this with the KC.

Bottom line - since none of this makes much sense, if you want to breed this bitch, IS she worthy of being bred in any case - top quality?

since none of this makes much sense,

Probably the most sensible element of a post on here so far
.

I have gone to the KC ....Will apply to them.        No  it doesnt make sense ..But then if he was " inside" till 22nd June....the litter wasnt his priority.
2 of them died.  Also he had no time to get the paperwork ready.

It is important to realise that the Endorsements do not stop people breeding. They just stop Progeny being Registered. 

I expect more from the ABS

I expect more from the ABS

Well they don't have spy cameras or crystal balls, so if there is a problem it is the buyer who MUST make a complaint -otherwise it will not be found out until their next inspection.

> I expect more from the ABS

That is why you should have sent in an ABS feedback form.  If you did not receive one and all the required other paperwork, then you need to let them know, in writing.

I am A Breeder and don't know where to post this I had one of my Puppies 17 month old dumped on my Door step and now Owner refuses to give Paperwork back. Have now taken action as having Bitch spade and have found new home for her. But whats more Important that Person advertises she is expecting her first litter from another Bitch she owns in new year. Now that sadness me as how can you dump a 17 month old Bitch back to Breeder and then they I have a litter with one of my other two Bitches. Sorry thats sick

AS the breeder you may find that the kennel club will transfer her back to you as the owner has given her up.

Thats where you wrong Kennel club says private matter nothing to do with them I have a Contract when selling my Puppies means jack shite to Kennel Club so now I;m having Bitch spade and know she won't want her then found fantastic new home for her so no worries there. But want to let future people puppy Byers now don't buy a Puppy from that kennel as they are false wrong Dog not a machine

Fortunately when I had dogs back without the papers they were still in my name

Not being able to register a litter because of the non-breeding endorsement used to mean something.  However when these days BYBs can ask as much for their mix bred 'designer puppies', maybe even more, than a purebred puppy, not being able to register a litter is no protection!    I have no answers for stopping this - but if I was still breeding, I'd still fully endorse my immature puppies.
ps  One option could be to run all the bitches, at least, on until they can be spayed and then sell them

> One option could be to run all the bitches, at least, on until they can be spayed and then sell them <img title="razz" class="fsm fsm_razz" alt="" src="/images/epx.png" />

Well that would mean most of us would have to give up breeding ;)

One option could be to run all the bitches, at least, on until they can be spayed and then sell them

I had 8 bitches born in my last litter LOL and they shouldn't really be spayed until 2.

Why do you think I added a to that suggestion (spaying before selling).   Clearly this isn't viable.

Yes I realised, that's why I added a wink to my reply ;)

Sorry.  The 'wink' didn't show up.

And I added a "LOL".

> The 'wink' didn't show up

I did it the old fashioned way semicolon and closed bracket, haven't got used to click on them now.

The supposed reason for the lack of paperwork was the BVA being behind time.   
Also a piece of paper with R Endorsement and X Endorsement  ...added to this a penalty of £5000 should I breed a litter without breeders permission.

You know what? this AB scheme sounds like a blueprint for career criminals, sounds like just matter of time before they come across it & gear in to all the loopholes.
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You know what? this AB scheme sounds like a blueprint for career criminals, sounds like just matter of time before they come across it & gear in to all the loopholes.

I have said until I am blue in my face that not only would this not be legal, but there is NO WAY that contract would pass the ABS inspection. So how can it be the fault of the ABS???

Marianne, as usual you are talking to a brick wall that doesn't have any ears

True tatty-ead.

I too have had a problem with an ABS breeder. Although I have a case against her for breach of contract (verbal, with a witness) it could cost me thousands, which I can't afford.  I have gone through the whole KC process, and basically they are not interested that their AB was, in my opinion, a crook and a bully. I was considering joining the scheme, but don't think I will bother now. The KC will uphold your application to lift endorsements as you did not have a signed contract and the breeder did not have possession of the pup at time of registration. As for the monetary demands..forget it.

KC expected Standards all over

The KC will remove improperly placed endorsements, so where are they to blame here?