So, three years ago I bought our Cocker Spaniel from a KC Assured Breeder. The breeder was very helpful (I had no previous experience of the breed) and seemed very thorough in her questions to us, as well as the answers to our questions. Her setup was lovely, and we met all her dogs. The puppies seemed very well cared for. It was not until we arrived to collect our puppy that we were told she might be a carrier for PRA (mum was carrier, dad was clear) and that she had not had any vaccinations. I know this is something that divides opinion, but at the time I was quite shocked that we had paid quite a premium to buy from an AB and the pup had not been vaccinated.

However, puppy came home and I stayed in touch with the breeder. Two years later we decided to breed our girl, and sought the advice of her breeder. She was very helpful and recommended a stud dog, worked out breeding coefficients etc and arranged everything. I took our girl for all the relevant health tests/DNA tests and then arranged her visit to the stud.

The breeder we visited was also an Assured Breeder, and good friends with the breeder of our girl. She told me that her dogs had never, ever failed to get a bitch pregnant. She said she would be very interested in a puppy from our girl, and that she would take a puppy in lieu of stud fee. On visiting, our girl was not very interested in the dog, and so the breeder suggested we leave our girl with her for a few days. As we had travelled 200 miles to the breeder, we felt this was a better alternative than keep travelling back and forth.

After a week I get a call from the breeder to say that she has mated our girl, but changed her mind on wanting to keep a puppy and we now need to pay the full stud fee, plus boarding. She had initially told us she would not charge for board. I asked for bank details to transfer money and she said it had to be cash.

Funnily enough there were no puppies, and the breeder said we could have a free return on her next season. She was quite rude and said her dog had never missed and it must be a problem with our bitch.

On her next season, I had scans done to make sure she was 100% ready for the dog as I did not want to leave her again. The breeder was a bit of a pain, and didn't want me to go during the week, so we had to hope everything fell right on a weekend. I took our girl down to her first thing on a Saturday morning, and she was quite happy to be mated.

Now, the funny thing is, at this point the breeder turned to me and ADMITTED that the previous year she had not managed to mate my girl, and that her dog had failed to get 5 bitches pregnant!

She wouldn't do another mating, stating she only ever did one mating and that had worked in the 40+ years she had been breeding.

Sure enough, our girl was not pregnant this time either.

The breeder has said that if we want to use her dog again we must pay another stud fee. TBH I wouldn't touch her with someone else's barge pole as I feel we have been well and truly led up the garden path. She's had nearly £600 out of us for boarding and stud fee, not to mention the lies she blatantly told and the miles we had to travel. I thought we were doing the right thing, using our breeder's suggestion for a stud dog, using an AB etc. Lessons learnt the hard way!

We have found a new stud dog to try on her next season, and this breeder seems very reasonable and helpful.

My question is this; do I have any come back at all on the original stud dog owner? If our girls gets pregnant with this new dog on her first attempt, will that be proof that there was something amiss with previous dog/breeder and give us leverage to recoup some money? Is any of this worth reporting to the Kennel Club, or would they simply not care? To me, what has upset me the most, is the lies that the breeder blatantly told, the fact she changed from wanting a puppy to wanting payment, then adding boarding fees, then admitting she never mated the dog, and then admitting her dog had missed on five bitches (having claimed 100% success). Is there anything I can do, or is it just something to be chalked up to experience and move on?

I have to say I think you are BOTH at fault here. Very, very few people would ever consider leaving their bitch with a stud dog owner they did not already know very well. I even refused to leave a bitch with my best friend for mating. You need to be with your bitch both to make sure she is okay (it can be a traumatic experiences for some bitches once they tie) and to witness the mating.

You pay a stud fee for the mating, you don't pay for a guarantee of pups. So the dog owner was totally wrong in charging you when no mating had taken place, but she could have charged you for a mating even if there were no resulting pups. I see nothing wrong in charging for boarding although of course it should have been mentioned at the start! As for changing their mind on whether to have a pup or a fee -I don't think that is unreasonable because all sort of things could have happened to change the breeder's circumstances, making the timing for a new pup unsuitable.

All of this goes to highlight that the conditions should all have been written in the stud contract that you should both have signed. As an ABS the stud dog owner must have such a contract and this is where you could make a complaint. When she is inspected the KC will want to see her contracts and stud records.

As for a puppy not being vaccinated -there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and unless the puppy was older when sold then I would never expect a pup to be vaccinated when bought. Giving just the first vaccination might sometimes be necessary for a breeder if the pup fr instance stays until say 9 ½ weeks but it DOES cause problems when the new owner's vet does not stock the same brand of vaccine. I've just had one of my pups collected a week earlier than originally planned when the new owner discovered not one vet in their area stocked the same vaccine that my own vet uses. If you collect a pup at 8 weeks then the best and most logical option is for the new owner to take the pup to their vet for the first vaccination, together with the vet check you should always have done on a new pup anyway.

I wouldn't leave any of my dogs with someone I didn't know at all... But this woman is very good friends (in fact they are now in partnership) with the breeder of my bitch, and I was assured by her breeder it would be ok to leave her. Trust me, it is not a mistake I will make again!

The whole changing her mind with regards to puppy/stud fee would not have been a problem had there been any puppies, but it seems like this happened purely because she KNEW she had not mated my bitch and therefore wanting something.

I fully expected to pay for board, this was not the issue, the issue was she told me she would not charge me (when I asked outright for a price at the start) and then suddenly hits me with the bill (at £20/day) afterwards!

I do agree that I was rather naive going into this, and placed far too much trust in her because she was an Assured Breeder and friends with the breeder of my bitch. TBH I've written off the money, but I am very cross that this happened, and am sure she is conning other people in a similar way, so perhaps she does need to be reported to someone... However, my view of the KC is that they never want to get involved.

Now, the funny thing is, at this point the breeder turned to me and ADMITTED that the previous year she had not managed to mate my girl, and that her dog had failed to get 5 bitches pregnant!

In law a dog is legaly classed as 'property'.

The admission gives an indication that the dog is not functioning 'properly'.

'In law' the breeder has to provide you with 'a reasonable  duty of care', any reasonable person would reasonably expect the dog owner to have told you that, in the same way it wouild be reasonable to tell someone buying a tent that the tent has a leak in the roof.

Personaly I would ask for a refund in full with 7 days & then, if they did not pay, I would demand they pay & warn them I would take them to court if they would not, & I would carry that threat through.

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Chalk it up to experience, you write off a LOT of money when breeding dogs..and the KC won't be interested.
As Goldmali said....many consider the stud fee for services rendered ..not a guarantee of a litter. I personally don't agree with this but that's the way it is.

However, my view of the KC is that they never want to get involved.

Your view or your experience? If an AB has a dog at stud and did not use a contract that spelled everything out (I am assuming that is the case?) then they will want to know about it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a puppy being unvaccinated at point of sale.  In fact, because vet practices use different brands of vaccine, it is far better for them to be unvaccinated and to receive both jabs with the new owner's vet, than to risk the new vet wanting to start the whole vaccinations from scratch just because the first jab was of a different brand.

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with her being a carrier for PRA either, as long as she is only bred to a clear dog.  If we excluded all carriers from the gene pool, it would be massively reduced - which would lead to other health problems.  Your breeder did her homework, bred to a clear dog, and let you know pup might be a carrier so you could also ensure testing and mating only ever with a clear dog.

I don't think the original breeder has done anything wrong at all here.

The stud dog situation does sound wrong, but where it is wrong depends on what is normal for your breed.  Some breeds only take payment if a successful mating happened, some offer free return, most stud dog owners offer 2 or even 3 visits - even after one good mating.  What breed are we talking?  You need to get input from other experienced breeders of your breed, hopefully independent ones.

I'd say you should have found out all of these terms before agreeing to use this dog.  Before using a dog, I'd want to know:  How many visits do I get, what is the fee, etc.  Then you agree with all of that in writing (at least in emails) to be referred back to. 

If the dog was never mated the first time at all, then yes, she should not be charging you a fee if a breeding didn't happen.  But it's going to be her word against yours - she could easily switch her story again and say a mating did happen.  Fact is - no one knows because the dogs were at her house.  Boarding, well - she boarded your dog, whether or not the mating happened. 

I would report what happened back to your own breeder, if she knows the stud owner and recommended her.  And then I would try to argue with the stud owner a bit and point out the unfairness and see if she offers anything back.

> Very, very few people would ever consider leaving their bitch with a stud dog owner they did not already know very well. I even refused to leave a bitch with my best friend for mating.

Traditionally bitches visit the stud and did stay with the stud dog owner.

This is certainly still the case in many breeds.

Some stud owners will take a photo of the tie if they don't know the owner well just to prove a mating did occur.

Stud terms can vary widely between breeds, and even between stud dog owners.

For example in my own breed for at least the last 20 years it has been the norm to pay the stud fee (which is normally the price of a puppy, whatever the dog) once the bitch whelps, or at least is confirmed in whelp.

Stud dog owners are usually very keen to ensure a litter results and bend over backwards to be accommodating and certainly as a breeder I'd expect at least two matings unless both dog and bitch decide no.

Very few of our males sire many litters in their lifetime, a dog siring half a dozen or more litters in a lifetime is considered well used.

As for which is at fault if a mating doesn't take, they are not machines, a bitch may fail to ovulate, a dog may have low sperm count from overheating months earlier, but more often the timing is wrong, and they succeed next time or both go on to have pups with other mates..

Do you have any comeback? - unfortunately no.   One to chalk up to an unfortunate experience.  

I had a similar situation out in Canada.   Took my maiden bitch to an American Champion who was living in Canada and had to leave her there.  When we picked her up, she literally shook all the way home to the point I knew she'd not have conceived and wondered what exactly might have happened to her!    As it happened, she wasn't pregnant, leaving me wondering if she'd even been mated.   However later on I heard that the dog had missed to several other bitches who had gone to him - probably why he wasn 't kept by his breeder much as people were tending to use his sire down in America as can happen.   I was offered a repeat mating, to one of their other males actually, but didn't want to put my bitch through all that again, and took her on a 12 hour car trip to another American Champion, in the States.

I'm not sure I'd have paid for boarding unless you were told about this, right off.

Sometimes it's best to learn a lesson (the hard way) rather than get into what could be a difficult situation.   Protect your own reputation, and move on.    Maybe that dog wasn't right for your bitch in any case!!!

ps   Reading the subsequent comments now, I have always regarded the stud fee as being for the SERVICE not for the result, much as with an unproven male, I'd not take a fee until there was a litter on the ground.   Further my Stud Agreement stated one puppy doesn't constitute a litter, two or more does - and as such a free repeat would be given.   And I never got into a puppy in lieu situation.   Too potentially messy.   Stud service from a proven male = a fee.

Sorry I do not breed but just have a question

Two years later we decided to breed our girl,

Why did you decide to breed, is it because you want another puppy of your own, or are you planning on becoming a breeder more than just the once. I am just interested to know the reason for the decision. Do you have people waiting to buy the pups?

Lots of sound reasoning here but the fact remains, according to the OP, that the stud dog owner lied! Of course proving this is problematical to say the least.
At best this is a case of both sides being unclear what is required or expected and at worst very "sharp" practice indeed!

Notify the KC, they are so "precious" about ABS, they just have to do something about it. As far as the stud dog owner is concerned, she/he has been fraudulent by taking money for a mating that did not happen. I do take bitches overnight or however long it takes to mate them, however I would always photograph the tie and have never charged for board. I do also help out the bitch owner as I feel it is my responsibility as the stud dog owner to to this for the sake of my boy's puppies. Today I have delivered one of my whelping boxes (on loan) to a bitch owner whose pups are due in 2 weeks. I will also be there for to help out with the birth

I think the most important thing in this, & it is very important, is get everything in writing before any money changes hands, that is security for both buyer and seller because it is a contract.

Taking into account there are currently several posts at the top of the 'General' section & both the forums & FB comprise of only very tiny number of people related to the estimated (defra) 8 million dogs in UK, there seems to be quite a problem with dissatisfactions of buyers, they could all have been solved right at the begining of everything was done in writing!
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Now, the funny thing is, at this point the breeder turned to me and ADMITTED that the previous year she had not managed to mate my girl, and that her dog had failed to get 5 bitches pregnant!

Do you know it's going to get to the point where we should carry dictaphones around with us or use our record features on our mobiles when talking to breeders/stud dog owners, as it stands it would be your word against hers, for a complaint to the KC.

For the life of me I don't understand why one earth she would admit the mating didn't happen, knowing she still charged you, especially when her time and effort to try and mate were recouped in charging you board, madness! Tbh my mouth would have dropped open there and then, the trust would be gone, no wonder you think she is a scam artist, can't blame you for thinking that. Shame the admission happened after the 2nd mating as I'd certainly have asked for my money back at that point.

However, seems a second mating did take place, this was for free wasn't it? If so, then there is nothing to claim for really is there? As you'd already paid for the mating once, even though no pups arrived the 2nd time either, it is the sperm you are paying for, not the fact that they may hit or miss I'm afraid, 2nd and 3rd chances to try again are discretionary to each stud dog owner also.

If the stud dog has had success in the past not much anyone can do, the KC will not be interested in his misses, he may have missed with 5 bitches, but he may have been mated countless other times, (5 might be a small number, some stud dogs do the rounds) she may have not been admitting fault with the stud dog, just letting you know that it happens....wrong dates for the bitch are generally the reasoning, it can just be the wrong time, or for some reason no compatibility.

You've not had a great experience or a great start, your girls breeder may well not know she did something like that, (charging for no mating) we don't always know people as well as we think, so I wouldn't blame your girls breeder..........you can but write it off, unless you find out this stud dog has never had a litter.

I hope you have a good experience next time around and have the litter you are planning for.

Lots of sound reasoning here but the fact remains, according to the OP, that the stud dog owner lied! Of course proving this is problematical to say the least.

The lack of a contract should be enough to get something done as it is breaking ABS rules.

> What breed are we talking?

The OP states the breed in her very first post.

Do you know it's going to get to the point where we should carry dictaphones around with us or use our record features on our mobiles when talking to breeders/stud dog owners, as it stands it would be your word against hers,

Nothing wrong with that, by the sound of the practical everyday working of & based on other related posts on this forum it seems KC AB assures conflict, dissatisfaction and regrets for years after collection of an 8 week old puppy. How sad is that??????
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What breed are we talking?

It's a Cocker.
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Nothing wrong with that, by the sound of the practical everyday working of & based on other related posts on this forum it seems KC AB assures conflict, dissatisfaction and regrets for years after collection of an 8 week old puppy. How sad is that??????

Well also based on what you read here, according to you ALL KC registered dogs are unhealthy and the ONLY good dog is an imported Dobermann. So I wouldn't take CD as a representative of the entire country as it clearly isn't. It's like vets mainly seeing sick dogs -people don't often come on here just to say what a good and easy experience they have had buying a puppy from an AB. I can assure you my puppy buyers do not end up with problems and conflict.

Nothing wrong with that, by the sound of the practical everyday working of & based on other related posts on this forum it seems KC AB assures conflict, dissatisfaction and regrets for years after collection of an 8 week old puppy. How sad is that????

I guess sometimes it seems like that..........

Remember also that the KC is not the law, or a legal body, they are but a scheme with rules, (if you want to be in our club, you have to do this ) which is why I suppose recording conversations would be fine for proof of their rules being flouted, if we had to go down that road, (it's not a court room) and I think sometimes it is needed. They need to have written or recorded proof of what is going on, they can't take sides without it.

Every organisation is full of people, some will be good at what they do, be honest and produce what they say they are producing, (on the whole I think this is so) but, there will always be bad seeds (we generally get to hear of those first ) people who will bend the rules, lie...........it's not the organisations fault it is the human race as we know it,

They are trying, but IMO there are not enough people to check quickly enough or enforce with efficiency........ and unfortunately, they like the law, make rules and expect people to adhere.........when they don't it is difficult, but not the fault of a scheme which tries to bring order.

The KC ABS is a good scheme, it's just some of the people in it........are not!

according to you...................... the ONLY good dog is an imported Dobermann.

I did NOT, at any time, say that! rather than graphically illustrate yourself as being untruthful link the post where I said that!
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I did NOT, at any time, say that! rather than graphically illustrate yourself as being untruthful link the post where I said that!

Maybe instead you could link to a post where you have said ANY other breed bred in the UK is good?

Maybe instead you could link to a post where you have said ANY other breed bred in the UK is good?

Not only have I never said any other breed in UK "is good", I have never said that about any breed, anywhere - its just a subjective term that only means something to the individual who says it, in fact I rarely if ever think of things in terms of "good" or "bad"....I might & quite have used the term "good health" or something meaning that, although I don't remember it, I simply don't think of things in terms of "good" & "bad" & for the record I would not refer to Dobes anywhere in terms of "good" or "bad"........I might pick out some specific characteristic of something (not just dogs) & say that element is good......e.g. if your driving over 5k per annum then an LPG conversion is good idea, 54.7p per litre in one place I know.
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All that said by me..........after reading a few recent posts on here involving KC AB scheme it seems that at least as far some buyers here it has become nightmare in KC clothing, understand this, I have outright ownership & full responsibilty of my dog & all that means.

Based on what I  have read from some in recent posts who have bought from KC AB registered breeders, those who have bought from AB & posted couple of posts here only have partial ownership of their dog and some 'diminished' or greatly reduced rights as to what they can & cannot do with it, thats nightmare ownership!
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My most recent dog came from an assured breeder. She has been very helpful, always there. Even to the point of looking after him while I went to discover dogs to compete with my older dog. Yes he is endorsed, I would expect that. But in the (unlikely) event that I did want to breed from him dependent on health tests and sensible mating these would be lifted.

The bitch had done very well showing. I had a queue of people lined up wanting puppies (reputable homes, show and pet). I am already an experienced breeder in other breeds, so it wasn't the typical 'oh wouldn't it be nice to have a litter' whim.

Sadly I placed my trust in an assured breeder as I am inexperienced with this breed. I felt it was the best way to go. I have learnt from my mistake, written the money off and moved on. I was just concerned about others getting conned by this very dishonest breeder.