When a breeder has their puppies 'vet checked' what does the vet check?   For example, eyes, ears, heart, paws, hips, worms, fleas?
Does the breeder get written results for each puppy and if so are these passed onto the new owner?

When the new owner gets the puppy checked at their own vet do you think the same checks are carried out?

Well, an unusual question, if some breeder or other told me there was to be a vets check before I collected it (if you mean something like that) then I would certainly want a copy of the vets report as part of the sales contract.
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Is it an unusual question because new owners have told me the majority of vets don't do this unless specifically asked for and paid for by the buyers.  That is countrywide.   Also when I had my current dog vet checked the vet charged me but most local people have said the first check is quite often free so that you continue with that vet.

That is the question, and really I suppose it all depends what rh vet understands as checking puppies.

Thsin is an issue I have with it now beign required under the ABS.

I have a breed that doesn't really have any congenital issues to look for, not anything you would not notice yourself.

I do not take my pups anywhere near a Vets practice unless I am worried there is something not right

I don't want my pups near the risky vet environment (after all sick animas will have been there) before they are going to be vaccinated..

Also at what age does this vat check need to be done in order that it has some meaning to the new puppy owners?

If done weeks before they take their pup what use is it? 

I expect them to take pup to their own vet, but on the other hand having the Vet look at them might cover the breeder if new owners maintain their vet finds something  you should have.  It's a mine field.

I would want something that was for each pup, perhaps design a proforma with tick boxes on the computer if vet doesn't already have one.

Will have to ring my vet and ask him what to include if he doesn't have one.  Now the ABS are required to do this I will I suppose do so even though I am not a member any more.

Just had my Peni to the Vet on Friday (having had her pups Tuesday Afternoon) as Thursday night some of her mammary glands had become badly engorged , not yet mastitits but in danger of it, if not dispersed.

With a weekend coming I thought it wise to see the vet and was prescribed AB's, which I would only use if the hot and cold compresses did not continue to work.

Obviously she found the vet visit stressful being away from pups, and produced a lovely poo soup on leaving.  I now have a loose bitch who is only eating half what she was. grr

As an AB I have to get my pups checked -but bizarrely I don't have to get it in writing. However I am asking my vet to list all the pups (I have a litter of 12) on the same sheet of paper, complete with microchip numbers (I will e-mail them a list of pups in advance) and simply make a note next to any pup should there be anything to comment on. I will then copy this and give a copy to each buyer. As I have so many pups I also don't want them all to go the same weekend, so some will go when they are 7 ½ weeks old. As an AB, again, this means my vet must put into writing that they are happy that the pups are ready to go at less than 8 weeks, so I will ask for this to be added to the certificate.

I've had certificates like this when getting pups from other breeders; NON ABs in fact.

It will give me peace of mind and this time I've actually had some buyers ask if the pups will get a vet check before they go.
Now the fun part will just be to get 12 pups to the vet..........

Thank you Brainless, I'm sorry to hear about Peni.   I hope she is alright now.   You are absolutely right.  Don't take freshly born puppies to a vet if not sick because of all the animals in the surgery.  That should be put in block capitals for all to see.   The breeder uses the worst vet in town and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.  I didn't say that to the breeder though.

Yes, Goldmali, if you wish to be an approved breeder you have to follow the rules that are laid down.  My present dog was eye tested amongst other things and I received the results in writing about the eyes only.   There was something on the paper that I couldn't read and queried it with the breeder and she said she didn't know what it meant either.   I asked her to find out but she never got back to me.   After 2 years I now know it reads bi-lateral because the eyes have taken that long to be defined.
One chooses their puppy and takes a chance.

A lot of vets offer a "puppy pack" chipping, inoculations, worming and general check. We went with the breeders vets "puppy pack". Our puppy had had first inoculation with this vet and a quick check over (nothing written down to us thou)
When we took our puppy to our vets for registration, we made an appointment end of surgery, carried him in, did not put him on the floor. We are amazed how many people put new puppies on vets floor! Our receptionist asks how old is the puppy? And advises best carried in as a few sick pets come in!
If breeders are to do a vet check and written copy for buyer, who pays? Is it added onto the fee? Or is it for the buyer to enquire, seller to do and buyer pay separately?

This is my worry I won't have my pups vaccinated before 10 weeks, when their immune systems are a little more mature, and advise new owners to do the same.

New owner had reaction in a pup in one litter.  The pup ended up with hay fever symptoms all through it's puppy hood which caused swelling and scarring of the eyelids, needed an op too loosen the lid, and of course can't be shown..

Anecdotally this multi vaccine from the states has also made dogs poorly when used as a booster.  One dog getting a  booster reacted in the car and needed emergency treatment for anaphylaxis.

It is a USA one and has many more components than are need in the UK.

If breeders are to do a vet check and written copy for buyer, who pays? Is it added onto the fee? Or is it for the buyer to enquire, seller to do and buyer pay separately?

It's up to the breeder, of course -and I don't see why the cost should be passed on to the puppy buyers- no more than the cost for microchipping for instance is.

Our puppy had had first inoculation with this vet and a quick check over (nothing written down to us thou)

I forgot to say -this is a bad idea. If the breeder gives the first vaccination only, it often creates problems as not all vets use the same vaccine, and unless the buyer's vet happens to stock the same vaccine, they will insist on the course being started over again -or the buyer will have to find a different vet. Which could be hours away. Hence it is far better to give no vaccinations or BOTH -not one.

> I don't see why the cost should be passed on to the puppy buyers- no more than the cost for microchipping for instance is.

Well of course it is, as the breeder has to take the extra cost into account when pricing the puppies, so in the end the new owner is paying for it.

Well of course it is, as the breeder has to take the extra cost into account when pricing the puppies, so in the end the new owner is paying for it.

If you take that attitude you should also charge buyers for the food you send the pups home with, the toys, blanket etc, and to me it simply isn't right. You send your pups off with as much as possible, and it's all part of the price. If others breeders charge the same but give their buyers less, then that's up to them.

> If you take that attitude you should also charge buyers for the food you send the pups home with, the toys, blanket etc, and to me it simply isn't right. You send your pups off with as much as possible, and it's all part of the price. If others breeders charge the same but give their buyers less, then that's up to them.

I do the same I like to send pups with everything they might initially need, including a good collar that will last through to adulthood, lead, bowl, bedding  etc.

All I am saying is that the breeders costs (especially the unavoidable/essential ones) are part of what sets the puppies price, increases in breeders costs mean they have to put up the price of puppies.

There will always be those that charge the usual and skimp on thing which is wrong.

Anything that requires vets input though tends to add quite a lot to costs.

My pups always have had a 10 point health check, that includes all the usual heart, lungs, eyes, ears, mouth, abdomen palpating, skin/coat check, weight, temperature, full body/limb look over, flea check etc.

I've always done it the day before puppy collection........for me, for my peace of mind, that even though I know my pups have no problems, I like that peace of mind. I pay for it........ it is not added onto the price, it is something I choose to do. I tell my puppy owners I do it, there is no paperwork for them, just a cover note from my vet for me. I guess on request vets would do singular paperwork though.

But, it is of no use to my puppy owners, I always insist that within 48 hours of collection my owners need to go to their own vet to register the pup who will also do a 10 point check and continue with worming and advice etc.

There are many vets out there who take advantage of new puppy owners, if they know that the breeders vet has already done a 10 point check and all is well they are less likely to try on the 'puppy murmur' worrier which seems to be rife in some places.

I knew of a lady who bought a pup which apparently had a broken leg........whose to know whether before or after purchase, but it covers things like this as best as can be, that all pups prior to collection are fit and healthy.

WARNING!
Some unscrupulous breeders use this vet check as a way of saying that their pups are healthy as they have had a vet check.........nope, it should never be confused with health checks done via the parents prior to mating, i.e hip scores and other inherited ailments (breed related) the 10 point vet check is just a basic look at a pup it does not tell a vet what is going on inside longterm or may be inherited.

I always encourge anyone who breeds via my little circle that the vet check should be done to cover them, but it is not a must do, each breeder to their own.

My pups always have had a 10 point health check, that includes all the usual heart, lungs, eyes, ears, mouth, abdomen palpating, skin/coat check, weight, temperature, full body/limb look over, flea check etc.

I've always done it the day before puppy collection

Do you mean you check or a vet comes in & checks?
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> I've always done it the day before puppy collection........

My problem is I rarely have pups all going the same week.

I prefer not to have more than two pups go on any day, and most owners have a fair way to travel so weekends are a must, (which is why I will allow some to go at 7 1/2 weeks) sometimes a certain weekend is not free for them, so they go later, or holding a pup due to holiday etc commitments.

I'm thinking of making a proforma unless someone has one or can find one that vets use.

it would list al the pups with columns for things checked.

I could then photocopy one for each owner.

Sorry but if I needed a vet to check mouth, ears, skin and flea check Id give up.

Mine examines thoroughly, listens to heart ( she's a cardio specialist) checks patellas, lymph glands,
lungs then I have the head of the eye panel certify them clear of hereditary eye
disease.

> Sorry but if I needed a vet to check mouth, ears, skin and flea check Id give up.

Exactly, which is why mine have never been checked routinely, as they are not prone to anything I would not spot myself.

I'd be ashamed if I didn't know what a 'visibly' healthy pup looked like.

I had a dog which appeared to have been born with a heart condition which wasn't recognized by the breeder or at the breeders vet check.  Or they knew but didn't tell me!!   So with my next dog I asked my vet to check the heart and she said the dog was too young to be able to be diagnosed.  As I say the breeder knew but didn't tell me or my vet is useless.
Also my dog was born incontinent and was on Incurin all her life.  The breeder sold me a duff dog.
My question is how can I trust a breeder?

My question is how can I trust a breeder?

Get to know them well in advance -long before a bitch is mated. Meet them and their dogs. Google them, make sure they come up with show or working wins (whichever they do) so that they are not just churning out pet pups for a profit. And ask if it is possible for you to speak to previous puppy buyers of theirs as a reference. Not all buyers would presumably be happy to talk to strangers but most good breeders would have many buyers that they have become close to since they bought a pup and that would not mind -many puppy buyers tend to become almost part of your family. I am sure I could come up with at least ten people that would happily speak about the dog they've bought off me,should anyone want references.

My breed can be born with and without tails. I normally get the litter checked at 3 days old to confirm tail status by my vet, who records it on his computer records. Just before leaving to go to their new homes, and after being chipped, I take them back to the vets to be health checked and each puppy has a letter confirming tail status, linking in with their microchip number, and that they are healthy.This may involve multiple visits for me, depending on when each pup is leaving.

When I had my 'keeper' pup from my last litter vaccinated I was also having vaccinations done on 3 of my other pups in the litter that were staying a little longer. The vet checked them all thoroughly and gave me a print out for each puppy which I photocopied and sent away with the pups when they left.

I'd be ashamed if I didn't know what a 'visibly' healthy pup looked like.

I have never bred, I am a 'buyer', good grief what maladies have I been missing all these decades thinking I was looking at healthy pups when all the time they might/must have been on the brink of maggot infestation.
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I had a dog which appeared to have been born with a heart condition which wasn't recognized by the breeder or at the breeders vet check

CM only shows/can be detected after a few years & heart 'murmers' occur at any time of life including very late in life as an age related normal part of the general age related physiological degeneration.
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For insurance purposes I'm sure you have to have the puppy checked over with your resident vet? If puppy checked over by breeders vet would insurance companies accept this? Even if it's a few days/weeks before collection?
I've just received email asking me to choose between puppies from a photo, leave a deposit and then view at weekend! If not happy have deposit back... mmm not sure re pick and pre deposit before visit!

If you have doubts then don't.

Do you mean you check or a vet comes in & checks?

I take pups to the vet for their 10 point check, they used to also have their vaccine at this time, but due to the controversy of different manufacturers I stopped doing this, and left vaccines to my new owners vets unless I was keeping a puppy overdue which happens quite frequently.

My problem is I rarely have pups all going the same week.

Agree, the pups would go in batches to match their pick up dates, it also gave them their first chance to go in the car, prior to pick up, another socialising boundary.

Sorry but if I needed a vet to check mouth, ears, skin and flea check Id give up.

I don't do it for that reason, many breeders do the 10 point check and of course we are all knowledgeable and capable of doing our own pups which we do from birth, vets automatically do this every time we take our dogs to the vets, it is just backup, in this day and age I think breeders need all the backup we can get, it is why the KC ABS recommend it too, who would take their pups to the vets if they thought they wouldn't pass with flying colours? I certainly would not turn it into a flippant remark that we breeders who do it, can't judge our own pups, it is quite insulting. It is an extra service that is all, and myself and many others like to do it.

Since microchipping is going to be compulsory soon, maybe those folk who don't chip themselves could get a vet to chip and vet-check at the same time...?

mmm not sure re pick and pre deposit before visit!

The mention of a deposit alone would make me run.

> Since microchipping is going to be compulsory soon, maybe those folk who don't chip themselves could get a vet to chip and vet-check at the same time...?

A mobile chipper can come in long before the vet check is needed (if required) and it could be a much kinder experience done at home by a trained person who is used to chipping.

> The mention of a deposit alone would make me run.

Well it's pretty normal practice with many breeders actually recommended in the book of the bitch and fortunately something my puppy buyers have been perfectly happy with the last 20 years.

I have just had to turn away 10 people on my waiting list to other breeders, taking deposits from those who definitely want a puppy enables me to do so ASAP after a litter is born, and hopefully they are able to get on another breeders list in a timely fashion.

Those who are getting a puppy and I can then enjoy the rearing period exchanging photographs and information and getting to know each other better over the weeks.

I've paid a deposit before but after a second visit with breeder and puppy. I've not been asked before to pick a puppy from a photo then pay then visit.
I feel a deposit for me starts a contract between myself and the breeder happy to pay once selected puppy or if seen breeder before litter due and both happy I'd leave one then.
I'm not sure who it was here but I recall if a puppy had one inoculation already and you take puppy to your vet. Maybe a different variety of inoculation used and may have to start again?
We chose our breeders vets puppy pack and travelled to have him inoculated there after bringing him home . After this we registered with our own vets and had insurance forms filled out.
Do all breeders offer their vets puppy packs?

I take pups to the vet for their 10 point check, they used to also have their vaccine at this time, but due to the controversy of different manufacturers I stopped doing this, and left vaccines to my new owners vets unless I was keeping a puppy overdue which happens quite frequently

OK thanks, I understand that now.
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> vets puppy packs?

??? What is this.

If it's one of those vaccinations and wormers for life offers to keep you at a given vets, then no, would not apply as I have never had a puppy go to a home local to me.

Most people who have a puppy from me have been researching the breed and found  me via my own website or the breed club. 

Have then gone on my waiting list up to a year before pups arrive, have met me and some of the dogs at shows, (I initially encourage people to meet the breed people and dogs at a show more local to them than I may be, or visit a fellow breeder) usually visited me too.

Some will have come via other breeders who have met them but didn't have enough puppies.  I pass vetted folk to other breeders in the same way, chances are they may also have met them.

Taking deposits (once pups are born and we are allocating who to offer a pup to)  means I very rarely have to make a last minute decision on people for an unbooked pup to home.

Received:

"Deborah Fenwick-green says: When our oldest dog was vet checked by the breeders vet, they picked up that he had a mild puppy heart murmur. Which allowed the breeder to get in touch explain the situation, and asked if we still wanted the pup. Of course we said we still wanted him, as we had already made the commitment to have him. Out of the kindness of the breeders heart she then knocked off 1/3 of the price. When our pup went for his 6 month check, as predicted his murmur had gone. If nothing else the open honesty of the breeder confirmed to use we were getting him from a quality breeder who cares about her pups and not just money."

>When our pup went for his 6 month check, as predicted his murmur had gone.

Did you then pay her the other 1/3, as the pup turned out to be perfectly healthy?

Just got back from our morning walk and whilst out  I got talking to others.  The reason some health issues aren't mentioned when buying a pup is because of insurance.  If you know that the pup has a condition insurers won't insure or they will insure but not for that condition.   So it's best to take out an insurance not knowing.   Does what I've written make sense?

Yes it does, for example puppy flow murmurs are common in young puppies which resolve by the time vaccinations used to be given at 10+ weeks,, and with pups being vaccinated earlier than in the past or maybe now being pre sale vet checked before 10 weeks, will show up more often, which may mean perfectly healthy pups will end up with heart issue exclusions and hiked Insurance premiums.

Puppy pack is for their first inoculations, worming tablets, micro - chipped it's not one of those for life packages.

Well none of that would be any use here unless pups were not leaving until past 10 - 12 weeks as I won't part vaccinate pups.

I worm pups before they leave and advise they are done again at 11 weeks a week in between any vaccination course so the pups don't get loads of chemicals at once.

Again pups should not need flea treatment, as they would be treated her if I ever had an infestation.  I did find hedgehog ticks once, and pups were treated with frontline, which would last them into their new homes.

I'm not sure some things we could detect without this 10 point vet check. All the pups I've had have been to the vets for check ups within the 7 days before they go to their new homes. I don't think it's a bad thing and I would expect it personally. Whether the vet comes to you or you go to the vets it doesn't matter

What I'm saying is that's a lot of vet visits if your pups are leaving over several weeks.

Just glad I now have access to a car and driver, in the past I had no transport of my own.

Do all breeders offer their vets puppy packs?

I think that most vets today do offers with first inoculations/microchipping etc, they seem to be on offer everywhere today, but, as has already been said most people do not live in the breeders area, and unless you belong to a very large chain where they can continue in their own area, it is pointless making recommendations, puppy owners are not going to travel hundreds of miles for a veterinary offer, (I'm hoping you didn't travel further than 50 miles for the second vaccine etc ) you'd lose any savings in petrol charges. although it would be nice if you called in on the breeder again if in the area.

I've only ever had one pup live near me, which is nice as she is a regular visitor.

I'm not sure who it was here but I recall if a puppy had one inoculation already and you take puppy to your vet. Maybe a different variety of inoculation used and may have to start again?

This is why I stopped and I know many others too, it seemed a pointless operation and a waste of money to offer that first vaccination anymore, when more often than not their vet would use a different manufacturer and the whole process would have to begin again..............

.

agree with goldmali comment re vaccinations the last thing you need is the vaccination being done all over again because the vet cant use the same vaccine. I am more than happy to sort that myself. also with mothers immunity covering pups usually after until around 12-16 weeks  so I wouldn't want them vaccinated early as it more than likely wouldn't take.  mine have all been vet checked before leaving but what exactly that means and is it more than a good breeder can do anyway ?  as an example I had one who had retained testicle later found in the abdomen  when the vet said at 12 weeks he had two showing.

Our puppy farming neighbour advertises that all her puppies have a "vet check" yet we know for a fact that they never leave the farm, let alone see a vet! They are not vaccinated either, and this has nothing to do with follow on vaccines, and everything to do with money!

I don't "buy" the argument from breeders that it is better not to give vaccines in case the new vet cannot continue the course... Vets can look at the type of vaccine given initially and if they do not stock a suitable 2nd vaccine, they can order it in no problem. I've had this happen before, and the vet got hold of the vaccine within 24hrs!

> I don't "buy" the argument from breeders that it is better not to give vaccines in case the new vet cannot continue the course... Vets can look at the type of vaccine given initially and if they do not stock a suitable 2nd vaccine, they can order it in no problem. I've had this happen before, and the vet got hold of the vaccine within 24hrs!

If an owner insists and is savvy about vaccination, maybe, but 7unfortuantely many pet owners think their vet is god and believe him when they say Oh we'll just start again it will do no harm as we have a set price for the course anyway.

Personally experience now leads me to advise not to have first vaccine until 10 weeks and never finish the course until past 12 weeks.

I don't consider vaccination 'harmless' but a two edged sword with benefits and dangers.

All my puppy owners are give a copy of this article:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/
and urged strongly not to vaccinate to soon. 

This is the only reason I am considering having pups pre sale vet certified, (as I resigned from the KC ABS) as then new owners may not just get pup vaccinated straight away anyway.

Well it's pretty normal practice with many breeders actually recommended in the book of the bitch and fortunately something my puppy buyers have been perfectly happy with the last 20 years.

It must be your breed Brainless. I've NEVER come across a good breeder asking for a deposit -other than you. The word deposit tends to go together with "First to see will buy, been fleaed and wormed" in my experience.

Many of my buyers ask if I want a deposit, I've seen 4 just this weekend, and my answer is always no.

Vets can look at the type of vaccine given initially and if they do not stock a suitable 2nd vaccine, they can order it in no problem. I've had this happen before, and the vet got hold of the vaccine within 24hrs!

Most vets will NOT do this as they cannot order a single dose, they will have to order an entire box and why should they if it is not their preferred brand? I've had it happen to me personally with a pup I got from a friend down south. Same friend had a pup off me and found the same problem when she wanted to collect pup after first vacc. One of my current puppy buyers asked about first vaccination so I told her what vaccine my vet uses, she checked with ALL her local vets and not one used the same vaccine as mine. If anything it seems to be a north/south divide.

Nope not just my breed, and as I said it is advised in the homing section in the book of the Bitch.

Having had problems with people letting me down and having sent away god potential homes on my first litter I have taken deposits for the last 20 years and I can then concentrate on my puppies and the chosen owners.

So there is no one cut and dried right  way and comes down to what different people choose to do, to ensure the best outcome for the puppy, breeder and new owner..