In view of the post about mother/son mating, I was curious to know what sort of dogs are not approved by the KC. I am aware of crossbreeds for example, all the doodlepoos, but the only other one I have come across is the Boerboel. What others are there?

There are probably 100s but some are, Plummer, Patterdale, Jack Russell (not to be confused with the Parson Russell), Sprocker, Saarloos wolf dog, Utonagan,English Shepherd, Northern Inuit, plus all the ones like American Stafford, American Bulldog, Old time Bulldog etc.       The list goes on forever. Plus, of course, any 'pure bred' dog when either one or both parents are not registered.

Also offspring from any KC registered dog that has its registration endorsed "No progeny to be registered".

Here is the full list of KC recognised breeds: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/Default.aspx

Any dog that isn't on the list of 'recognised breeds' would be unapproved.  But there is a difference between unapproved, and not recognised.   None of the offspring of mix breeding would be approved.   And in terms of inbreeding, that would exclude father to daughter, mother to son, and sibling to sibling.   Including full brother to full sister, later litters.    As said, if a half-brother to half-sister mating is planned, the KC advises advice be taken from a more experienced fellow breeder within that breed before doing the mating. 

This is all sensible although if breeders today were more knowledgeable, this kind of restriction shouldn't be needed, has to be said.

What I can't go along with, although I do appreciate the reason put forward (and I did write to the KC about this at the time), is to allow one bitch to have an official mating to two different dogs within the same season.   Said to be relevant with breeds where the gene pool has become/is too small, to avoid having to breed the bitch twice, to the same end.   Obviously DNA testing would be needed to establish which sire produced which puppy.   Personally if somebody bought a bitch to my male when I knew she'd been served by another male in the same season (within days), I'd be seriously worried about infection.  Further I'm not so sure I'd be content to sign the litter application form.   But that's just me (old fashioned!)

> What I can't go along with, is to allow one bitch to have an official mating to two different dogs within the same season.

I think it's a very useful means of improving/maintaining genetic diversity within numerically smaller breeds without bitches having to have too many litters.

It's used fairly often with my own breed, silken windhounds, as there are only some 1700 silkens in the world (54 in the UK) it can be a good way of expanding the gene pool in a country without a bitch having an extra litter.

As all silken wndhounds are dna tested for parental verification anyway it doesn't matter.

No-one would do a deliberate dual sire litter just for fun.

It may necessitate traveling to two different studs within 24 - 48 hours, but paying two stud fees, then DNA testing all three adult and all the puppies.

From the breeders point of view having done this will they want to keep one of each sires pups (there might not be both).

It is a very good idea enabling a bitch to have more genetically different offspring without having to be bred several times.

Especially relevant in breeds that have large litters, where most breeders would prefer not take the maximum number of litters.

Thanks Tatty-ead, I looked up some of the dogs you mentioned, very interesting. I also didn't realise that the Patterdale and Jack Russell weren't approved (probably because I tend to obsess about GRs ) as I child I used to spend hours looking at the observers book of dogs, but there are so many types now that seem to be new breeds or maybe from other parts of the world that we didn't know about then. The discussion about breeding has also been fascinating, thank you for the responses. Any other unusual breeds?

Have a look at the FCI recognised breeds, tons on their list our KC don't recognise

I would not class foreign breeds working breeds not registered with our kc as not being approved of by the KC, more a case as no one has put in the work (for whatever reason) to get them put on the breed register.

In some breeds there are colour restrictions.
French bulldog, bulldog, chi, Bull terrier, Mini bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrie, - will not register merle
Cavilear king charls spaniel - if breeding two blenheim parents only blenheim pups will be registered (genetically the only colour possible from paring)
Dalmatian - won't register black spotted pups out of two brown spotted parents (as its not geneticaly possible)
Dobermans - any dog/pups white ancestry will have (WHITE ANCESTRY) after there colour on there papers. But doest say they won't register whites though.
Rough collie, Sheltis, Pyrenean Sheepdog, Cardigan corg, Border collie, Smooth collie, Aus show, Dachshunds,- won't register litters from merle to merle breeding
Beauceron - no tri colour to tri coloir breeding
Labs - won't register black pups a from two chocs, and if breeding two yellows will only register yellow pups

Then there are some breed specific health restrictions on registration
Briad - all breeding dogs must be hereditary clear or tested for CSNB, and carriers only to be bred to clears.
Cardigan corgi - will only register one's clear for PRA-rcd3
Irish red and white setters - will only register one's clear for  CLAD and vWD
German wirehaired pointer - will only register one's clear of vWD
Irish setters - will only register one's clear of PRA and CLAD

I wasn't aware of so many breeds not recognised by KC! I hadn't heard of the silken breed before either? Do you think the many doodle breeds in time will be recognised?

doodles aren't breeds they are crossbreeds. 

'A breed' breeds true with offspring looking and to some extent acting like the parents.

It's incredibly complex, I don't think many people fully appreciate the wealth of knowledge and experience that responsible breeders bring to bear when planning a litter and that's just the family history of the dogs concerned. When you add to that all the health tests and knowledge of whelping....... I am very grateful and fortunate to have two dogs who come from such backgrounds. I take my hat off to all of you who do this. thank you.

Crossbreeds just made up like the numerous Poodle crosses will/can never be recognised. The way to get a breed new to the UK recognised is to import a breed that does not already exist here but which is recognised elsewhere by an official kennel club (and if it started off as a cross, is no longer allowed to be mated to breeds other than its own so must breed true), is shown, has a breed standard etc.

This explains the process: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/activities/dog-showing/breed-standards/recognition-of-new-breeds/

I have a Dutch Shepherd, not recognised by KC

> I have a Dutch Shepherd, not recognised by KC

Now if you wanted to apply for the breed to be recognised and put on the Import Register you could, as it is a internationally recognised breed.

If they are recognised eventually, it's going to take many years and generations for them to breed true, and for the new breed to be developed for a reason other than to make money.   As has always been the case.   These people will get together to decide their aims, start breeding (and culling - taking another direction where necessary) and then drawing up a Breed Standard for the KC to ratify.   It can't be done in 5 minutes.

Personally I don't see the need for more breeds - especially when you take into account those breeds not seen in the UK /elsewhere, and so not recognised officially.   I don't see enough dedicated people out there these days either, or those with enough knowledge!

The Silken Windhound isn't a KC recognised breed.  In fact there is just as much controversy about them amongst whippet folks as there is about the various poodle crosses with the poodle breeders.  It has filled a gap in the market for a small long haired whippet sized dog looking rather like a small Borzoi and they are IMO stunning. 

Maybe the KC ought to move to a position rather like the one held by the GCCF regarding cat breeds and showing.

> Personally I don't see the need for more breeds

The geneticists largely agree: http://www.cgejournal.org/content/2/1/3

"The 20 most popular dog breeds account for 72% of total registrations with the UK Kennel Club, while the rarest 100 breeds account for only 2% of registrations, including 16 native UK vulnerable breeds............

http://www.cgejournal.org/content/2/1/3/figure/F4

One can argue that instead of trying to make a new designer dog breed based on an arbitrarily chosen aesthetic, we should focus on ensuring the future of our native established breeds, in addition to putting efforts into significantly reducing and eliminating the inherited disorders already present in purebred dogs. "

Personally I think that the Kennel club should encourage ownership and interest in the 100 lest popular breeds.  Among their number are bound to be any number that have any traits a potential owner could wish for, with the reliability of characteristics being reproduced.

Having done all that work why would a 'breed' club then even want to have their breed recognised by the KC?   Many of the non KC breeds have done and are doing just what you have suggested.  They already have their own working and showing structures in place which they control within the breed.

Just take a look at all the negative comments on here about the KC and ask yourselves if you were developing a new breed would you want to put that breeds future in the hands of the KC.

But there can't be a justification for trying to breed a new breed due to the number required to establish a wide enough gene pool and of course the high level of culling (meaning dogs that don't meet the criteria needing to be homed).

Can one justify this, as the majority of people will be getting dog that don't meet the hoped for 'breed', with the established breeds you have that reliability of outcome.

For those for whom a dog is a dog and any size shape, and behavioural traits are equally welcome (not many folk like that) have ample opportunities with the rescues available, or the occasional true accidental litters.

In theory you should be correct.  But for example where is the small broken or rough coated sighthound for those people who want scruffy or cute/pretty.  Not with the
KC breeds but with the crossbreed or new breed sector.

Ie the bedlington x whippet for those deluded pet owners who think that they are getting a mini deerhound.
the silkenwind hound for those who want a smaller sighthound with a longer coat.

Justification? How about ego putting a theory into practise.  Check out Brian Plummers 'work' in dog breeding.  I think that it can be said to have been his hobby - life's passion.  He bred obviously Plummer Terriers but also pure white Gsd's, various coloured Border Collies as well as lurchers.

Basically they do it because they want to and they are determined enough to do it.

Personally It's not something that I would do.

I agree in part with this, I dot think id want Dutch Shepherds recognised, thy are suddenly becoming the 'in' thing ive noticed lately, there are several undesirable people breeding them thinking they can make a lot of cash as they are 'like a rare Malinois'. I know one person who has done the same breeding of his 2 dutch 4 times and also crossed his dutch male with a Malinois Bitch he owns twice. You cant tell me that's for the good of the breed!

Just take a look at all the negative comments on here about the KC and ask yourselves if you were developing a new breed would you want to put that breeds future in the hands of the KC.

Far, far better than the alternatives, that's for sure.

It's difficult isn't it watching a breed or type of dog that you love being exploited and the results ending up in rescue.

I'm curious re certain breeds and how they have developed. I read in papers/online from vets/rescue centre's,  KC regarding how breeders have tweaked traits for show purposes?For example The English Bulldog with its breathing problems, The Pug too. So who is right? Have breeds been tweaked by a minority of breeders from their original features? Or are vets/rescue centres negative to show breeders etc?
Not wanting a storm in tea cup just puzzled and would like to hear views.

Welcome to the forum "Woodywhippet"

Actually the Australian Labradoodle is being line bred for type.  Hmm

It would be nice to have an on line database to see what their inbreeding coefficient is.

> Actually the Australian Labradoodle is being line bred for type. 

Yes and they have found problems and are having to introduce various c rosses due to ehlth issues cropping up due to the small gene pool.

Most designer dog breeders are not trying to create a breed, and fi the parent breeds die out,w aht will they cross then?

The majority of breeds that were not developed purely for their ornamental/curiosity value or purely as pets, do not have hugely exaggerated conformation.

Sadly the breeds with the most extreme conformation are among the most popular (don't get it myself), yet breeders are castigated for their existence???

> How about ego putting a theory into practise.

> Basically they do it because they want to and they are determined enough to do it.<br />

Would such enthusiasm not be better used helping numerically small breeds such as the Lagotta, Irish Water spaniel or Spanish Water dog, or the disappearing curly coat retriever, if doodle types are your cup of tea?

It's a bit of reinventing the wheel, and the likelihood is that the new model will have the same issues as the old..

> The Silken Windhound isn't a KC recognised breed.  In fact there is just as much controversy about them amongst whippet folks

You can't compare silkens to oodle/doodle crosses

Silken Windhounds are recognised as a breed in several countries, they have a closed stud book, a fully dna verified registry, they are extremely hot on health issues and breeding for performance as well as beauty. Show champions regularly also win sporting titles, in fact 2 years ago the fastest dog and bitch in the UK were also the only 2 show champions in the UK.

As an example of how important health is to silken breeders, a couple of years ago now a dna test for DM was found, although no silken had ever shown clinical signs of DM, despite most living well into their late teens they tested all breeding silkens just to be on the safe side. Silken Windhounds are now the only breed that we can say for certain does not carry the DM gene.

When I look at my silkens pedigrees I know for certain that the dogs listed actually are their ancestors, you can't say that either for any other breed, in other breeds it's down to the honesty of every single breeder. Of course if one breeder makes a mistake, honest or otherwise, then all health tests are also suspect. Silkens are parental dna verified, after microchipping, then health tests are done when the chip is scanned, I can guarantee their results and the results of their parents, grand parents etc.

One argument against pursuing KC recognition is that this stringent process would not be adhered too by our KC.

It wouldn't be the same though would it.  For the people who get off on creating a new breed or colour it's the new bit that gets them excited.  It's the experiment and it's success or failure that gets their blood pumping not preserving what is already in existence. 

Ah I've just thought of another non KC registered breed the Murray River Curly Coated Retriever.

Some breed clubs of working terriers do not want KC registration because they do not want their dogs to become overangulated and overcoated show dogs. I have become a fan of terrier and lurcher shows-they must be similar to the original dog shows and the owners are "old fashioned" owners where function is as important as beauty. The competion in these shows is just as tough as at KC shows but with less trimming and beauty products! I do like the look of Plummer Terriers, they are smart looking dogs but too stubborn for me ( I think Mini Schnauzers are too stubborn some days)

RR
I am aware of crossbreeds for exampl---the only other one I have come across is the Boerboel

HP
I did not understand that RR, Boerboels are an old S African mastiff type, they were bred by the Boar farmers originally to guard the farm, the farm bred ones are not pets by any measure but they are a pedigree breed & some do bred them for pets. Can you explain what you mean?

http://www.african-boerboel.co.za/Mastiff.htm

http://www.african-boerboel.co.za
.

Hi Hethspaw,
There was a Boerboel at training class, lovely dog but humongous, his owner told me they weren't recognised/approved by the KC and as this was his second I took his word for it. I looked it up on the internet and found it was an old breed in S Africa, but unfortunately didn't question what I'd been told. Mastiff breeds bother me slightly, I was fine with this one his owner was clearly responsible and training him well, but there must be plenty of others who don't. I recently saw a dog for sale on P4H which was a cross between BB/Cani Corso and two other similar breeds which I can't remember (will have a think) and I couldn't help wondering what sort of temperament it had and where it would end up.

The other two breeds were, I think, Presa and Dogue de Bordeaux. I remember thinking that I'd not seen a four way cross before, especially on that scale.

his owner told me they weren't recognised/approved by the KC

Ah, ok I understand that, I dont think they have been in UK very long, maybe 20 years or so but im not sure, I saw them out there (SA) many years ago, very, very agile dogs, not kept as pets there & then (SA).
.

I'm loving this thread. It's so interesting

came across this old post about the Boerboel and KC recognition or lack thereof. Some people who should have known better outwith our registry/club have tried to get the breed recognised by the KC. As a committee member of Boerboel UK we put it out to the members and it was unanimously voted down.Boerboel UK has mandatory health testing in hips,elbows,eyes,vaginal hyperplasia,a full appraisal system must be successfully completed and DNA must all be done on both parents before a single puppy can be registered with us or indeed any Boerboel within BUKS bred from.Caroline Hallet confirmed that they could not enforce mandatory health testing and our appraisal system before allowing people to breed from their dogs within the KC confines.For this reason,as well as many others,the vote was a resounding NO to go for KC recognition.Just recently rumours surfaced that somebody was going to attempt once more but on speaking with Caroline,she has confirmed that the application was denied and that there was a 5 year moratorium put on any other application so we shall have to start fighting against it all again in a couple of years time,first application was 2013.