I know I'll be shot down for being irresponsible, you can't make me feel worse than I already do.
6 weeks ago when my girl was in season, I thought we'd done such a good job of keeping her and her 10mth old son apart,never saw them together at all! Now though, I think she's pregnant, she's thicker round the middle and has that dreamy look in her eyes. She's had 2 lovely litters and I'd planned to have her speyed.I was at my vets Friday with one of the others and talked to her about my concern (only started to think it that day) She said it was too late to safely use Alizin or spey so the only option is to let her have the pups . I'm having her scanned next week.
My question is, has anyone experienced m/s puppies and were they deformed? They have no other common relatives and are not a kc recognised breed.

Why did you not have your 10 month old boy neutered once he was old enough, there is a chance any pups can be "deformed" even thou there not related lets hope the scan is negative

He was bred to hopefully be our future stud/show dog, part of a long term plan.We show nationally on the country fair scene, not kc  but still very competitive. My mistake was not having his mum speyed before her season.But I agree, lets hope the scan is negative.

Let's hope scan is negative for you, such is life when you want them to be they aren't and when you want them to be positive they aren't.

Might be worth seeing if some 'old time' breeders can help, obviously not allowed these days by the KC and I note your breed isn't but people used to do close matings like this. I guess it depends on how close te lines are behind both of them which could have an added impact:

This is contraversial but would you consider culling the litter at birth? Would the vet do it? Can't answer whether I would or not but a question to think about.

No point going over the "Why didn't you" if its done its done.
It was a common mating at one time but now banned for KC registered puppies of course.
If you go ahead with the litter (assuming there is a litter) then cope with what you get..unlikely to be "deformed" but may have a double helping of deleterious genes which may manifest themselves later as health conditions.

In this instance I wouldn't cull....but...Be straight with buyers and take the consequences..what all conscientious breeders would do...good luck....it happens.

I couldn't cull no.It would be distressing for her, she's such a good mum . If she is in whelp I just hope they arrive safely and she's ok.Valuable lesson learned.

Ok, whats done is done.. Those questions of why didn't I/you are a bit pointless now!!

Lets hope the scan shows no pups, which will be best for both her & you. You know you want to spay her so that can be done in a couple of months(should the scan be negative).

There is no reason why the pups are deffinately going to be deformed with a mother/son mating..it is a higher risk than a less related mating. I have known this kind of mating take place with no problems at all. This not a mating I would ever have done myself, just incase some of those reading think I agree!

If she is in whelp, I believe there would be a chance to not let the pups survive(read it on another recent thread). Someone maybe able to help with a better response there? This may sound very harsh & a sharp gasp of breath but not as 'bad' as an unplanned litter. As you know having litters are hard work if done properly.

I'm sure there will be other responses but please keep us updated...when is the scan taking place?

I think your worst problem will be finding homes as most (if not all) people are unlikely to want a pup from such a mating these days.

Maybe try to persuade the vet to do a gravid spay, surely no worse than a C section at full term, I have had my two of my girls spayed at same time as a section, absolutely no problem.  After all it should  be quicker as your not trying to revive puppies...

There is no reason for pups to be unhealthy unless both parents are carrying something nasty.  of course any negative traits are more likely to come through from such a close breeding.

Also such a litter may be more highly strung temperamentally, so the temperament traits of parent maybe a consideration.

With close matings like this, how the result might be would depend on what common faults the parents have, both seen (dominant) or unseen (recessive).   Years ago, before the UK KC refused to register litter from such mating, experienced breeders might risk doing this deliberately, to see where they had got to in their breeding programme.   But they knew to go out again with the next mating!   And to be ready for the unexpected/unwanted.   Breeding this close over generations may not produce deformities, but it will eventually mean you loose vigour, size and so on.   So again knowing when to use a complete outcross is essential.

You could go for a gravid spay, even now?   If not then you just have to trust to luck, and get her spayed with any proceeds so this can't happen again.

I know the vets have  distaste for a Gravid spay, but technically it cannot be any riskier than a section.

as others have said this was once a relatively common mating to fix type. Close in breeding can only demonstrate faults and problems genetically carried by the parents and thus if the line is not known to have genetic problems there is no reason to believe the pups would have issues. I believe the KC may register pups but they would have automatic endorsement progeny not eligible for registration which would not be lifted.

I have owned some very closely bred dogs over the years and all have had happy healthy long lives. Personally would not be concerned about owning a pup from such a close mating BUT I am not your typical puppy owner. There again most that are so hung up on genetic diversity want cross breeds anyway

I believe the KC may register pups but they would have automatic endorsement progeny not eligible for registration which would not be lifted.

No they cannot be registered. If you wanted to register puppies from a mother/son mating you would have to ask for permission BEFORE the mating takes place, and have "exceptional circumstances".

> I believe the KC may register pups

No, first degree relative mating has been banned by the KC since January  2008 or 2009.

This was the same time they banned registration from a bitch if she already had two litters by C section.  to both this applies: "save in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons and permission has been received,"  So would not apply here.

I believe the OP's is a breed not recognised by the KC anyway.

Whoops! 

Do you know what I'm finding more strange than anything, I'm scratching my head as........ you're not a novice?

You have a dog which you are rearing to be a potential stud/show dog? (So you obviously have good genetics here to even consider this stud as a viable one, one would hope?)

The bitch concerned must also be of good standing genetically and health wise for you to have bred two litters from her already?

Asking whether two apparently genetically good dogs being mated may cause deformaties I find a really strange question from someone who breeds?

It's a question that a bystander may ask, not someone who shows and breeds would ask. (Regardless of it being a KC recognised breed or not)

I find the whole thing just strange......... two genetically sound dogs regardless of relationship will breed good pups, but you should know your dogs backgrounds already? And you should certainly understand your dogs genetics if you are breeding.

It is unacceptable to mate like this today due to most breeds having large gene pools with no need for close matings, but it was done for years and years in the making of most breeds we have today, ...........unfortunately and alas today,  most breeders are amateurs and are breeding health problems into breeds as they don't know a good line from a bad one and often continued to mate close relatives for convenience rather than checking what health issues they were causing. 

The damage has been done by 'breeders' like this in many breeds already, hence the KC trying to claw back some sanity by outlawing very close matings. (Although in the right hands and with the right breeders matings like this actually helped some bad lines or genetically small breeds, but ce la vie.............)

Due to your question in asking whether deformaties may occur, or rather genetic issues (a magnitude of types)........If you are not sure of the health issues and genetic implications then you should not go ahead, and should not even be breeding IMO, which is why I am confused, I hope that your homework has been done on the dam and sires lines thoroughly regardless of this mess. No breed, KC or not, needs inherited health issues passed on.

I thought we'd done such a good job of keeping her and her 10mth old son apart,never saw them together at all!

Well, they were either together or they weren't? Only you know if they were allowed to be in the same room/garden etc at the same time.....if they were allowed to be together then that is a big and careless mistake, they should never have been anywhere near each other, but............

If they were not allowed in the same area together all the way through her season (fingers crossed) then it is probably a phantom or she has just got bigger, or........ could another dog entirely be involved? You have to watch in-season bitches like hawks many seasoned dams (as she is after two litters) will be even worse than the dogs desperate to mate with anything that moves.

Here's hoping that she is not in whelp and that the scan is negative, but if a pregnancy needs to go ahead, if you are happy with the lines....... then there should be no problems and the pups will carry the health, temperament and looks of the parents lines, here's hoping. :-)

I thought we'd done such a good job of keeping her and her 10mth old son apart,never saw them together at all!
We're they ever left alown together then? If not she could be having a phantom.

My question is, has anyone experienced m/s puppies and were they deformed? They have no other common relatives and are not a kc recognised breed.
The biggest risk is ressive health problems I'd say. As inbreeding increases the likely hood of ressive genes wether good or bad pairing up. You say the breed is not kc recognised but is there genetic testing for common health problem in the breed? If so is your girl a carrier for any of them.

Why did you not have your 10 month old boy neutered once he was old enough
I wouldn't class 10 months old to be old enough to be neutered myself

It is definitely not advisable to castrate a 10 month old puppy.

> It is definitely not advisable to castrate a 10 month old puppy.

100% agree with that one.  But thinking they were never together?  Odd.  As I keep both sexes, in large numbers, and cope very well with ensuring boys don't meet girls that are in season.  I know nothing can happen.  But the OP does not appear sure, and it puzzles me.

"No they cannot be registered. If you wanted to register puppies from a mother/son mating you would have to ask for permission BEFORE the mating takes place, and have "exceptional circumstances".

Correct (unless the rules have been changed, again ).   Even with half brother to half sister, the KC urges people thinking about doing such a mating to take the advice of somebody with a good deal of knowledge of the breed first.  They will, however, accept registrations from such a mating.  Again unless the rules have been changed

It's not a KC breed

I am a bit confused, the op says it is not a KC registered breed and in a later post it is said the dog puppy was kept in the hope of showing and using at stud?

I am a bit confused, the op says it is not a KC registered breed and in a later post it is said the dog puppy was kept in the hope of showing and using at stud?

They say they show nationally on the country fair scene but not kc reg breed so I'm guessing some sort of working lurcher, hound or terrier as they have shows for them at country fairs and game shows.

I'd suggest this is showing at 'fun' matches and using at stud for working purposes too?

I would have thought the most important thing to do would be to ascertain for sure if she is actually pregnant. Does it really need to wait until next week? Has she got no other symptoms other than weight gain? Because she may have just gained weight. I know my dogs go through phases of being visibly slimmer and fatter despite having access to the same amount of food.