I'm not sure whether this is a behaviour or a health problem, so am open to either possibility.  Sorry it's so long.

Since before Christmas my 9 year old entire male has been waking at between 4.45 - 5.30 am.  The dogs (this 9 year old and a 3 year old) normally sleep on the landing, and my bedroom door is ajar but babygated.  Sometimes the older one will wake me - not deliberately asking to go out but by shaking his head so that his ears and chops flap, or rolling and kicking the wall before running noisily downstairs.  Usually by the time I have got dressing gown and slippers on he has pee'ed in the kitchen - always the same place, so I have taken to putting down newspaper there overnight.  I let him straight into the garden, with no scolding or rebuke, and change the paper.  If I then let him go back to his bed on the landing he will start crying for his breakfast half an hour later, and is likely to go down and pee in the kitchen again.

When this started, I took him to the vet who gave an external examination and found no problem, and the sample of urine I'd taken tested normal.

He is normally very clean in the house, asks - by a look or by going to the back door - to go out when he needs to, and can be left for at least 4 hours (they're never left longer) without accidents.

So far, I have tried without success:
- "letting him know I'll always let him out by going down straight after him and letting him out";
-  I crated him (crate is in the kitchen) overnight for four weeks, no accidents in his crate but sometimes crying from about 5 - 5 .5.30am;
-  letting him out later for a last wee - usual time is 10-10.30ish, have tried 11-11.30;
-  giving him a couple of extra biscuits at bedtime;
-  waiting to see if the recent clock change would do the trick.

The next thing to try is treating him like a puppy and setting the alarm for 2.30 or 3 ish, although when on a couple of occasions the younger one has asked (by whining) to go out at that sort of time, and the older one has gone too, there has still been a morning puddle from the oldster.

If he were the only dog, it would be less complicated, but I don't want the youngster to learn this behaviour. I have always got up at 6 am (6.30 at the latest) so if he could just hold on for another hour there wouldn't be a problem.  Has anyone any ideas where I go next with this?  Should I
- ask for a more in-depth/internal (x-ray or scan) vet examination,
- bite the bullet for getting up in the wee small hours,
- or crate him every night?

My current reasons for not wanting to get up in small hours are that 1) youngster then wants to go out too and I don't want him to get into this habit, 2) the youngster objects strongly and loudly to birds tweeting; 3) the small amount of evidence I have suggests that it may not work; 4) I find it difficult to get back to sleep once wakened.

Any ideas?

I think I'd crate him and when he wakes take him straight out ensure he pees and back in the crate.

That will at least break the habit of peeing on kitchen floor (clean the floor with non bio etc so the smell for him goes away), and then you could try leaving him just a little longer when he wakes to hopefully make him stretch that extra hour or so.

As above.  Pup may learn the early habits but believe me, they can be unlearned later - I've been through it with 5 different dogs.  Most recently with my foster, who in his previous home was up at 6am every morning and had never learned to hold it at all as he and his sister went in the porch (garden not secure).  It's been a bit of a trek with him but by doing as Brainless says, we have just about cracked it.

I did the same with the other dogs, Saffi had the same issue with not holding it and she did take considerably longer but unlike foster, who is just turning a year, she'd been not housetrained properly for 6 years before I got her but again, we got there.

Thank you, Barbara.  I did try crating him overnight for 4 weeks - obviously not long enough - so will give it another try for longer.  Before I started to put paper down on the floor, I did wash it with a solution of bio washing detergent, and I also use bio solution for the routine kitchen floor washing.  I use enough layers of paper that no urine passes through onto the floor, and the paper is also turned up to protect the object he lifts his leg against and the plinth of the unit behind.

Thank you, Nikita.  You have certainly got a lot more experience of this behaviour than I have .  This dog, who I've had for 3 and a half years, has always been clean in the house and during the day and evening will ask when he needs to go out - as well as being offered the chance to go out at regular intervals.  It's just the last 4-5 months this behaviour has started.  After he's pee'ed in the kitchen he'll come to the foot of the stairs and whine, but he won't vocalise before he pees.

Have you any idea how long it might take realistically to break the habit?

Hard to say, really.  The foster has taken roughly 4 or 5 weeks, but he's young; my little daycare has taken most of the time she's been here, but like Saffi, she's got a longstanding habit (about the same amount of time) and is not housetrained at home so it's a constant battle with her.  I've never crated her but I do have to be vigilant, but again like Saffi, she'll go in the daytime too - I find it easier and quicker if it's just nighttime as they are mostly asleep, so not active and needing to go more often.  Easier to restrict overnight too - that was the key to Saffi in the end, making sure she couldn't get access to her preferred surface overnight (vinyl).

If you're really consistent and vigilant I would think you'd crack it fairly quickly but if there's any medical trouble underlying that could delay it.  Part of Saffi's trouble was her thyroid - with her it manifested as false UTIs (a genuine one initially but then repeated false ones), so she was weeing and drinking more.  She did take a long time to sort out before that began but getting her on meds was the final piece of the puzzle.  I'd be making sure he's totally healthy (if you haven't already, of course) and maybe considering some cognitive decline interfering with his normal routine (or perception of that routine, anyway).

He has a slightly underactive thyroid, for which he is on medication and is due for his 6-monthly blood test next month to check that the levels are still good.  He also has mild spondylosis, for which he has Metacam daily.  My first thought when this problem started was that his spondylosis had progressed and was causing it, which is why I had the vet (who initially diagnosed the condition and whom I take him to preferentially) check him over both for that and for any other medical cause.

Interesting you suggest cognitive decline - how would one test for this?  He has always been a fairly calm, placid dog and although a total sweetheart seems not always the brightest little button.  I have been doing gentle obedience training with him which is helping to develop his brain.

I crated him again last night, gave him a couple of extra biscuits (he is a very hungry chap and I have an unproven theory that hunger may wake him early and then being awake he finds he needs to wee) and put a darker cover over. I heard nothing until 6 am (but I was very tired last night so may have missed earlier sounds).  However, his crate bed was dry and clean although he was very glad to get into the garden.