We have recently improved the Champdogs Waiting List.

Litters can now be further qualified by distance and/or by show or working type.

However I have noticed a few people incorrectly (I think) specifying working type for breeds where this is not appropriate, i.e. the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

Which breeds have a distinction between the show and working strains ?

Is it simply all Gundogs or is it a subset of Gundogs plus some other breeds ?

Incidentally on Champdogs we have 88 breeds which have had a litter where the breeder has classified the litter as a "working" litter, that surely cannot be correct can it ?

Surely the term working should only be applied to puppies bred solely to do the work the breed was developed to do.

For example-Border Collies ISDS registered bred from.parents that work stock, not obedience, flyball, agility as these are activities not true work.

Gundogs from parents that work to the gun & again not obedience etc

Terriers from parents that are used to control vermin.

Hounds from parents that are used to legally to hunt(including Bloodhounds used to "clean boot" track)

Pastoral breeds from parents that are used to herd & again not obedience etc. This doesn't include GSDs as the breed has 2 distinct types & dogs from lines that compete on VPG can be described as "working" but not dogs from obedience "working" parents as the breed's full abilities are not used in obedience, agility etc. Also Long coated GSDs from obedience lines are not working dogs.

I know others will disagree but the true "worth" of a working dog should be judged by it's ability to do the work the breed wad developed to do

/>Is it simply all Gundogs or is it a subset of Gundogs plus some other breeds ?<br />

Don't forget the sledging breeds, there is a breeder near me who regularly takes hers out and competes with the dogs pulling and racing but she also shows. The dogs have huge energy levels and are quite full on and so I suspect would not be suitable to live a quite family life, and so it would be sensible to advertise as working.

Iv seen many European breeders use there dobermans/ Rottweilers/ Bullmastiffs for protection work and again compete In conformation shows, it's almost like we need a 'duel' register for people who compete in both.

I'm taking my bullmastiff to a gundog school and he is working his way through the tests and will be Certificed with the KC (this was originally the gamekeepers night dog after all) however I would not register him as a 'working dog'.

Tommee thanks for your response. Some interesting points but I don't think it is quite addressing the question I would like answering (although it could be).

I am looking to determine for which breeds the general public would consider there is a difference between the working or show type.

For example I think we will all agree there is a clear distinction between a litter of  "working" and "show" Cocker Spaniels irrespective of whether the parents of either litter actually work or are shown. There may be other breeds were some dogs actually "work" and others don't but where they still essentially look the same.

If the distinction isn't really relevant, then I want to remove the option to specify a difference so as to avoid any confusion to the general public.

Because I suspect the unfortunate person waiting for a working CKCS will have a long wait !

Triona

Thanks. You have made some similar observations to Tommee which are also entirely valid.

However as you have noted the distinction is not always entirely obvious and some dogs would fit in both categories.

With that in mind I have come to the conclusion that I want to make this a simple as possible and only include the "working" option where there is a clear and noticeable difference (even though it is going to be a lot harder for me to code). I find the more options you give people the more likely they are to make a mistake.

So the breeds I have so far are :

Cocker Spaniels
Labradors
Golden Retrievers (?)

Anyone got any more ?

Yes the BSD Malinois is most definitely split into show and working lines -with a big difference in looks, and working line pups now outnumbering show line pups by at least 3 to 1.

Then you have the awkward  people like me who insist on mixing both types in an attempt to breed true dual purpose dogs -and of course you will also find dual purpose bred gundogs -well certainly in Golden Retrievers you do, that I know for sure.

Oh and of course you definitely get show lines and working lines in Border Collies and German Shepherds.

>Because I suspect the unfortunate person waiting for a working CKCS will have a long wait !

My Cavaliers work very hard at lying on sofas looking pretty, alternating with rolling in fox poo on their walks....

It's not clear cut.  for example in the minority Spaniels most do not have a distinction in type, but clumbers do.

There is a distinct difference in type in English Springers.

Some of the HPR have no difference in type, but some lines are dual purpose some not so much.

So it depends on what your option really means, are you distinguishing Physical type (your GSD could be English Germanic or pet types, often all three used for Obedience etc, but only some used for non hobby work, such as Police, services etc).

Maybe it would be more useful to have  a question asking if parents are shown, or worked (or both) and have an option to say what kind of work.

Maybe it would be more useful to have  a question asking if parents are shown, or worked (or both) and have an option to say what kind of work.

That still leaves the problem of those that are neither shown nor worked -or indeed those that are shown despite being of working type. They won't win CCs but they can still be shown, and it does happen -even at Crufts. Certainly a working line Malinois should never be kept as a pet, they need to work and seriously so (i.e. either competing or in a professional capacity) and it is really important for puppy buyers to understand what type they are seeing advertised. In fact much the same would be true of Cocker Spaniels I dare say -and there we see so many people who bought a puppy as a pet and had no idea it was from working lines.

Flatcoats as well; you need to have some recognised working qualification  (FTA, KCWGC on game preferably, SDC, not I think, the Show Dog Qualifier)) in the parents and grandparents I think, to be genuinely working bred.      You can be lucky to have both working and show awards.

Trouble is, you need an in-depth knowledge of the pedigrees of the breeds in some cases to know which are genuinely working and which are (mainly) show.

Jo

English springer spaniels are also split into 2 different lines,working or show and there is also a vast difference in looks/temperament/energy levels. Again as Goldmali said previously the working type also outnumbers the show type in this breed as well. That's not to say that people with show type dogs don't work them as I've heard of people that do but talking from experience the show types definitely make better pets,they have an on/off switch and are more laid back generally. My friend has Italian spinone and think that most of these are dual purpose bred with breeders who incorporate both types in their lines.

Yes, Whippets can be Show, Working, Racing or Lure coursing in types & there can be significant visual differences in them, on occasions ;)

> Trouble is, you need an in-depth knowledge of the pedigrees of the breeds in some cases to know which are genuinely working and which are (mainly) show.<br />

This is similar case with Whippets, which I mentioned above...

Goldmali
Certainly a working line Malinois should never be kept as a pet, they need to work and seriously

Do you know if many of the working line Mals ended up with owners just looking for a 'pet' Mal? I'm interested.
.

Do you know if many of the working line Mals ended up with owners just looking for a 'pet' Mal? I'm interested.

Yes, many do -and those are the ones we now see in rescue on almost a weekly basis, often as young as 3-4 months old. I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I have never heard of a working line Malinois live in a pure pet home successfully for life.

and those are the ones we now see in rescue on almost a weekly basis,

That comes as no surprise, I don't see many of them & non close up enough to ask the owner anything, in fact I steer clear on the odd ocassion I see one 'cause I cant tell what kind of owner it has or know what line type it might be.
.

I think it would be helpful to possibly have a show type only option.
It is really annoying, when trying to find a show type Labrador, or even worse a show type springer spaniel breeder and having to trawl through all the working types.

As Floppyears said previously it can be extremely hard when searching for a show type English springer spaniel breeder (or for any other breed that has 2 distinct types) when the person has little or no knowledge of the different breeders/prefixes,some breeders specifically only breed working types,same goes for show types but then some may breed both. Or worse still is the fact that many people are not aware that some breeds have 2 types. Over the years of owning my previous boy (Harvey,Sarzeau I Have A Dream,show type English springer spaniel) I had many people approach asking me if he was a x breed or what type of breed he was as they'd never seen a springer as big as him,as most of the springers people generally see are the working type who are a lot smaller.

Bearded Collies have working and show lines

> <br />My Cavaliers work very hard

   

As Floppyears and Champ76 have said, for the more popular breeds which have distinct differences between show and working lines (thinking for my part of Cocker Spaniels in addition to the breeds mentioned), it would be very useful to be able to select for show-type only.  At present it is possible to select only for working-type. 

It might also benefit the dogs by raising awareness that there are two distinct types, and encourage people to think about which type would suit them and their circumstances best before they acquire the dog (rather than rehoming when its requirements cannot be met).

Thanks for all your helpful posts. It would appear it is going to be quite tricky to determine exactly which of the 200+ breeds have a clear distinction between the different types so I will leave it to those who know best (the individual breeders) to make their own choice how to categorise their dogs and litters.

> it would be very useful to be able to select for show-type only

Consider it done :

Show Cocker Spaniel Litters

I have also added a "dual purpose" option for those who need it.

> Consider it done :
>
> Show Cocker Spaniel Litters
>
> I have also added a "dual purpose" option for those who need it.

Thank you, Mark!  It looks very good

Thank You

Thank you Mark,the changes made will make it a lot easier.