I have to agree to a point with the "Fit for purpose" tests. It is not cut and dried though, There are breeds who now no longer have a purpose such as the Bulldog, and some that never really did have one like the lap dogs and companion dogs. Better by far to have a temperamnet test these days as the main purpose of dogs now is as companion animlas. Can you tell me what "fit for purpose" tests are done on the continent ? Lets just take my breed for instance The Bernese Mountain Dog, as far as I know the Europeans do not have to pass any drafting qualifications in order to breed. Could you quantify exactly what these European wide standards of manditory "Fit for purposes "  tests are for me ?

Thank you Aileen

PS my breeding stock have so far all passed a basic first draft, I also hip and elbow test my stock and have them pass a temperaments test.

My breed are only fit for pet dogs nowadays. Their original purpose is long gone.
I think the EU oversees enough doesn't it. Where will it all end.

I checked the link for the German Dobes. A tad confused. It does state that parents have to have a training certificate to breed, sorry, does that make them "fit for purpose". The local mongrel can have a training cert.

Most of the "Fit for function" tests carried out in Europian countries (as far as I can see) are focussed on type, conformaty, heath tests and temperament assesment. They do not cover assertaining if the dog is "fit " for its original purpose at all. So Hethspaw, in effect we do the same in the UK. The only difference being that we regard our show results to be a gauge of Type and conformaty and our health results to be a gauge of health. The only thing missing is a temperament test. I would love to see every breeding dog having to pass a mandatory temp test. I would also love to see some regulation to say that every pedigree litter must have been accepted by a breed club as having passed all these tests. That still leaves the millions of cross breed or working dogs to do as they please. So the Europian dogs are basically no better. The breed clubs have better control and we could take a leaf out of thier books in that respect.
May people advise new owners to go to the breed clubs for advice, and rightly so but in the UK many of the officers and committees have a variety of people who can give conflicting advice as to who they consider "GOOD" breeders, get the wrong person on the end opf the phone and they may well recomend someone I would not touch with the proverbial barge pole.
Aileen

I don't know if it's all breeds or some but in Germany and possibly other countries they have breed wardens who assess a dog for it's suitability for breeding, so health clearances, temperament tests - Rotts have a breed suitability test which the sports club over here have adopted when they hold them. I haven't watched them to see the full in's and out's of the requirements. To be a ch not only do they have to prove themselves in the breed ring but also in the working field which is along the lines of IPO.
I do think that many breed clubs have higher requirements and standards than the ABS, it's a shame that our breed clubs don't all sing from the same song sheet in respect of health testing and what is mandatory.
At least Bernese have a main GB club to work down from and I really think it's one of the best clubs around from all the health info and work going on behind the scenes to the lovely handbooks and magazines we get. I've shown many people in different breeds them as they are impressed in the quality and content, however because the breed has a main club it therefore has the hold of numbers in membership to can afford to do this.
Keep up the great work Aileen and co :-)

In my breed the dogs purpose is still tested in the field as a versatile gundog. Minimum requirement is that the dog passes the first two stages of frield testing which tests natural ability and responsiveness  to training. The polish and advance tests come later and are usually undertaken but are not essential. The dogs must also pass hip,score testing and must be assessed in conformation with minimum conformation grade at championship shows or more typically at breed shows run by the regional breed clubs. All test results stamped onto pedigree.

Lyneb
I checked the link for the German Dobes. A tad confused. It does state that parents have to have a training certificate to breed, sorry, does that make them "fit for purpose". The local mongrel can have a training cert.

The link below is to an english translation of the German Dobermann clubs ZTP test, only they (club) can register a dog & issue a pedigree, one health pre-requesit is that only HD free dogs can be licensed to breed.

http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Rules/ZTP_Rules.php
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Lets just take my breed for instance The Bernese Mountain Dog, as far as I know the Europeans do not have to pass any drafting qualifications in order to breed. Could you quantify exactly what these European wide standards of manditory "Fit for purposes "  tests are for me ?

Certainly not, sit down for a couple of days & do your own, same as most adults have to do.

I did however do a breeder search in hungary & came up with this breeders pedigree, I notice she's made a point of putting all the ancesters HD scores on it, no idea of that is mandatory testing or not. I did find that the breed has an exceptionaly high % of cancers in the breed compared to other breeds.

Hungarian breeders pedigree with HD test results.

http://www.maglod-falvi.com/tkvdiamond.htm
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Nothing new about that, ethical breeders don't need to be forced to do things properly or for the best for their dogs. 

I have always included such data on my pedigrees, (and posted on my website) which is why I write my own and don't order and pay for ones that the Kennel Club will sell me. 

Unfortunately the UK kennel Club does not include pedigree details on registration forms for dogs, only the parents name3s and health screening from officially recognised schemes is included.  You have to purchase a full pedigree certificate, so most breeders have always written their own, as more info can be included.

For example many Bernese breeders check for longevity when breeding to try and reduce the short lifespan/cancer issue. 

I know I have spoken to one who deliberately chooses long lived studs from longer lived relatives.

Lyneb.
It does state that parents have to have a training certificate to breed

I have never heard of a "training certificate" in germany, do you have a link to the site where you read that?

The local mongrel can have a training cert.

Yes of course, nothing wrong with being mongrels anyway, many of them have outstanding attributes quite suitable to be used as working dogs, remembering newspaper reports of the time numerous mongrels were used as SAR dogs in the wreckage of 9-11.
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Unfortunately the UK kennel Club does not include pedigree details on registration forms for dogs, only the parents name3s and health screening from officially recognised schemes is included.

Yes they do. The pedigree is now printed on the reg cert. However if it is still there once a new owner has transferred the dog and received the new card type cert I don't know, but certainly the pup I kept from my litter in 2014 has her pedigree printed on her original reg cert -no longer just parents' details.

Not bred a litter since 2013, so haven't seen the newest versions, though had heard early 2014 they were just a small slip of paper when sent to breeder???  Have they changed again?

Saw the card type at eye testing at Crufts and no pedigree that I could see, ans tiny font :(

Last year the pedigree was printed on every reg cert.

Well with luck come May I will see for myself, what they are putting out.

I'm by no means an expert or anything, but when we lived in Germany back in 2000 we researched and bought a St Bernard from a breeder who was a member of the German St Bernard Club (St. Bernhards-Klub e.V). I'm fairly certain that at that time their requirements for breeding suitability were much stricter than the German KC ones. I don't know if that still applies.

I'm not sure if the rules have changed since, but at that time they were only allowed to register 6 pups a year from a dam. Our Molly was one of 11, so the breeder had a choice to either cull the 5 extra pups or not to breed from that dam the next year (so 2 years before she could breed her again, which is what she chose to do).
This limit is set so that the market isn't flooded with St. Bernards and at that time they also set the price range that was allowed (it was between 1200-1500DM) and the breeders had to sell them for this price.

No Saint (stud/dam) could be bred from without passing an in depth assessment, consisting of the recommended health tests (hip/elbow/heart/eye) as well as a full temperment test. The persons carrying out the tests were well qualified and trained and the dogs had to be of a certain age before breeding and I'm fairly certain that, as in the UK, they had to be retired from breeding by a certain age.

She was a lovely dog with a fantastic temperment and no health issues whatsoever throughout her life, dying from old age (heart failure) at 11 yrs old, at a time when average life span was just 8yrs. If we ever have another Saint we'll definitely be buying him/her from Germany as I think the rules that they have in place are great and I believe that we should follow the same procedures, especially with regard to temperment testing, for all breeds.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion

Nik

member of the German St Bernard Club (St. Bernhards-Klub e.V). I'm fairly certain that at that time their requirements for breeding suitability were much stricter than the German KC ones. I don't know if that still applies.

As far as Dobes are concerned its the same, the german KC have no say at all in the breed, if the german KC wants a recognised dobe breed judge to judge dobes at one of their shows they have to apply to the german dobe club (DV) for one. No idea if that applies to all breeds, i just assumed it did.
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Chi-mum
and no health issues whatsoever throughout her life, dying from old age (heart failure) at 11 yrs old, at a time when average life span was just 8yrs.

Hethspaw
I just googled to find some links to UK average dobe life expetancy, my own Euro only genetics only bitch is 12 years 4.5 months and getting on with her days without problems, I came up with the site below which gives UK Dobes an average of 9.5 years, I was surprised to see the site give negative comments about KC standards here including 'puppy farmers' can still register KC pups.

http://www.aritaur.co.uk/health.htm
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> my own Euro only genetics only bitch is 12 years 4.5 months and getting on with her days without problems<

My UK genetics only bitch is 12 years and 3.5 months and is also getting on with her days without problems

The following link has the facts about Dobe health in the UK

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/16406/dobermann.pdf

Whether badly bred dogs are KC reg, mickey mouse reg or unregistered they still exist and people still breed, buy and own them.

Good breeders do the right thing, they don't need to be forced to health test etc.  It is up to potential owners to educate themselves as to which health tests are appropriate and assure themselves of the kind of temperament of the parent stock.

The main issue temperament wise with UK dobes was that they had become soft, but that is exactly what the majority of puppy buyers want, as most dogs of any breed are required to be pets. 

Personally my view in modern UK society in our crowded Island, there really is not room for dogs of the guarding dog breeds, to have this trait at a highly developed degree.

Such dogs should be bred and kept only by the armed forces, Police etc and should never be allowed in the hands of the general population.

It scares me that there are people deliberately importing foreign breeds with very heightened guarding/fighting/protective instincts.  Many were bred to do their job in remote regions and not expected to be social.

Breeds with other traits like hunting, herding and retrieving are lass problematic as they can be safely managed.

My own breed has a strong hunting instinct, and it can be a pain that recall is more problematic to train, and more care needs to be taken if you wish to allow them off lead.  ditto many terriers etc. 

Thankfully these traits are unlikely to make them a dangerous liability to own in amateur hands.

There are other breeds with high work drives that make them poor candidates as pets unless they are with an owner who can give them more of an outlet than a daily walk, which is what most pet dos will get if lucky.