....a Begium based & bred setter, breed runner up I think, was poisoned at the national dog farse show...

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/08/police-investigate-alleged-poisoning-of-dog-at-crufts
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I have just seen this on crafts on tv, how awful if it is true.  Caroline Cisco has given a 'not our fault' statement.  Poor dog, my thoughts are with the owners.

Apparently another dog has been affected too. A wanton, thoughtless act to win a trophy? It's a poor day indeed

Apparently another dog has been affected too

Oh! I did not know about that, i picked it up on thames news & did a google search, that show causes so many long term problems, whatever breed wins that breed is destined as the 'fashion breed' for the next year or so although I dont think that aspect is as bad as it used to be 'cause no one takes much interest or notice of in KC anymore.
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If they really wanted to "nobble" a dog, then they'd slip it something that affects its performance in the ring.... not to snuff it out days later.

Caroline Cisco has given a 'not our fault' statement.

Well what else could they do? ALL Crufts exhibitors ARE adviced to never leave their dogs alone. How could the KC possibly do anything more?

Bench areas should be out of bounds to all but owners and handlers at all shows. A show with such a high profile as Crufts will always be a target for the PETA crew and much more could be done to protect the dogs. It is impossible to be with dogs at all times if you travel alone as I do, if you nip to loo or are showing another dog it is inevitable that at some point a dog will be unattended. Crufts is far from exhibitor friendly and TBH the KC response  just reaffirms my view that we are a blooming inconvenience. At very least there should be a serious incident review by KC but they have made their money and will sweep this under the carpet. Time exhibitors voted with their feet and stayed away

Why would you say it was a 'farce' dog show'? Plus you are clearly a KC hater. I don't have much to do with them and I know they have their faults  but they are doing something to try sort things out albeit slowly.

What if it was another exhibitor that gave the poison? You have to look after your own dog. Most of my friends look out for each others dogs if they have to go to the loo etc but we are a numerically small breed, entry 51 at Crufts this year.

> A wanton, thoughtless act to win a trophy?

A little unfair at the present time don't you think?
Given that the police investigation has not concluded. There are private security, members of public, trade stand holders and workers, cleaners... A vast array of people with opportunity and god knows what agenda.
Let's not bash exhibitors anymore than the tabloids have already.
Some animal rights groups have very dubious tactics and incidents of poisons sewn into meat chunks have happened in parks and footpath areas up and down the country of late never mind in a show arena.

My thoughts go out to all the exhibitors affected - senseless and tragic.

It is impossible to be with dogs at all times if you travel alone as I do, if you nip to loo or are showing another dog it is inevitable that at some point a dog will be unattended.

I disagree. There are always other exhibitors in the same breed to ask for help for a few minutes.

Given that the police investigation has not concluded. There are private security, members of public, trade stand holders and workers, cleaners... A vast array of people with opportunity and god knows what agenda.

"Slow acting poison", surely nobody can pin point to the exact hour when it was given, so it also means it could include people at a hotel they may have been staying at, channel tunnel or however they travelled, etc etc. I think this is one time when it's impossible to know for certain how it happened.

A show with such a high profile as Crufts will always be a target for the PETA crew and much more could be done to protect the dogs.

The main ring isn't accessible to all yet PETA still got inside it DURING BIS this evening. Yes swiftly dealt with (as usual -it has happened so many times now that people have ran into the main ring), but "exhibitor only" areas could never have such tight security.

I would hate to see exhibitor only areas. On Friday when I showed I had 3 lots of potential puppy buyers come up to me at the benches to have a chat and meet my dogs, plus a fair few friends who just came to say hello but were not showing anything themselves -including puppy buyers. Today when we showed again it was far less hectic as it was my second and not main breed, but I still had a friend and her mother in law turn up  to say hello and meet the dog we had entered. Crufts is so often the place where you meet up with people you never see at other times during the year, such as friends who are still interested in the breed but no longer show, puppy buyers who live far away etc, plus all the prospective puppy buyers. And not to forget my absolute favourite moment in time of my entire life, when my girl got BOB at Crufts and had an entire fan club there watching and cheering -all CD members who had come to say hello without being exhibitors themselves. It would be a sad day indeed if none of that couldn't happen in future.

> The main ring isn't accessible to all yet PETA still got inside it DURING BIS this evening. <img class="fsm fsm_sad" src="/images/epx.png" title="sad" alt="" /> Yes swiftly dealt with (as usual -it has happened so many times now that people have ran into the main ring), but "exhibitor only" areas could never have such tight security.

The fact that this happened tends to make me feel even more that the benches should be private. If they are able to do this, then people with any kind of grudge against dogs or showing could do a lot worse in the background.

The fact that this happened tends to make me feel even more that the benches should be private. If they are able to do this, then people with any kind of grudge against dogs or showing could do a lot worse in the background.

It took, what, 6 or 7 people to remove one person from the main ring. How would you guard 29 rings with a lot more benches? It would simply be impossible.  All every exhibitor has to do is be responsible for their own dogs at all times.

Aren't we the only country in the world anyway to HAVE benches? Other countries tend to set aside an area for cages, making it even easier to get to the dogs.

> The fact that this happened tends to make me feel even more that the benches should be private.

And then Cruft's would eventually dwindle away.  The paying public do pay a considerable sum to enter the show.  I have often wondered how families with children can afford to go in.

Yet they pay because they go to see dogs up close and personal.  They can't go up to an exhibitor at the ring side and going to the benches they then become prospective puppy buyers.  As Marianne mentions in her post.

And then Cruft's would eventually dwindle away.  The paying public do pay a considerable sum to enter the show.

It would, but until the european wide standards of mandatory 'fit for purpose' testing of breeds are applied here then what is the basis for supporting non mandatory 'championship' shows here? the only country in europe which has no mandatory breed registration club 'fit for purpose' tests.
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I have to agree to a point with the "Fit for purpose" tests. It is not cut and dried though, There are breeds who now no longer have a purpose such as the Bulldog, and some that never really did have one like the lap dogs and companion dogs. Better by far to have a temperamnet test these days as the main purpose of dogs now is as companion animlas. Can you tell me Hethspaw what "fit for purpose" tests are done on the continent ? Lets just take my breed for instance The Bernese Mountain Dog, as far as I know the Europeans do not have to pass any drafting qualifications in order to breed. Could you quantify exactly what these European wide standards of manditory "Fit for purposes "  tests are for me ?
Thank you Aileen
PS my breeding stock have so far all passed a basic first draft.

I must say my dogs being particularly sociable absolutely love Crufts, for the attention they get from people.

We showed in the morning, done by 11.30 so we then went and joined the people doing discover dogs so eventually there were five dogs in the pen and probably at times another three sitting next to it.

It was weird as the two dogs officially doing DD were my older ones 8 year old daughter and her 18 month old daughter, so my younger one was niece and cousin. 

Do you think family recognise each other by scent as they were more than happy for mine to join them in the pen, yet investigated some of the others more???

Yes the daughter may have remembered her Mum (we rarely see them as they are in Scotland so do shows we don't go to), and my younger bitch had stayed with them 18 months ago, so the older one may have remembered her??

I just love the way dogs you have bred go gaga over their breeder even after years.

I have always found my dogs love going to shows primarily to meet up with their canine and human friends.

I did put a ? After that line , could have been a random one off act, a spat between personalities, a group making a statement no one can know yet until a more detailed inquiry finds out. It's still at the end of the day a horrible act to do. No dog, owner deserves this ever.

Can you tell me Hethspaw what "fit for purpose" tests are done on the continent ?

Well your post & Q is about the most refreshing I have ever seen on this forum, 'fit for purpose tests' are something I have been going on & on about for years & ONLY you have shown ANY interest!!!

My own breed is Dobe, other breeds have their own, the link below is to the German Dobermann clubs breeding rules & regualtions, if the breeding dog has not passed ALL the criterea involved then the litter cannot be registered as pedigree dogs/Dobes.

Dobermann Club Munich
http://tinyurl.com/o8eyork
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Hi all

sadly its not a surprise if true, i think there was a jealous shower who new that dog was better than his/hers and was bitter

If they are found and are guilty it should be prison time in my opinion

So as not to hyjack this thread I will re-post this question elsewhere..

Re the original subject............Reports say that the autopsy found 'beef chunks' in the dogs stomach.
The dog would have left Crufts, I imagine, by 8pm Thursday at the latest and died at 12 midnight on Friday - 28 hrs later -.
How long does it take for food to go through a dogs system? how long would it still be identifiable as 'beef chunks' not just 'meat or even food?

the reason I wonder is Zuma had a few peas with his feed at 6pm yesterday and they have already appeared when I picked up on a walk about 12ish today?

>And then Cruft's would eventually dwindle away.  The paying public do pay a considerable sum to enter the show.  I have often wondered how families with children can afford to go in.

>Yet they pay because they go to see dogs up close and personal.  They can't go up to an exhibitor at the ring side and going to the benches they then become prospective puppy buyers.  As Marianne mentions in her post.

As a non-showing member and owner/competitor of working dogs I have never been tempted to go to Crufts, but from the comments of those that have, I get the impression that a lot go for the shopping as well as seeing the dogs.  It shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a show to have some sort of security or, just restrict the 'up close and personal' meeting of dogs for the general public to the discover dogs section.

The Kennel Club should be paying the owners the £50,000 the dog was worth, immediately, without a second thought, then sort out the correct security.
For this to happen at the best show in the world all be it in the uk, they take all the profit.
She Caroline Kisko is a nightmare herself, taking all the registrations for the puppy farmed pups, and slagging off non accredited breeders, she is such a hypocrite it beggars belief.

Some years ago my lab who was doing very well in the ring  two ccs  and several reserve ccs
She was at Leeds champ show  where the judge was a good one for her but my friend her handler rang to say she was listless we met up ASAP and I took her to the emergency vets as as soon as I saw her I had an idea she had been drugged sure enough she had been given ACPs took her three days to get back to normal  it could have been so much worse So she never made up as I would not risk my beloved dog for a certificate
She is a pet first  in my opinion the benches should not be open to the public but that wouldn't deter a fellow exhibitor  very sad for the owner and the reputation of dog shows to kill a dog for sport  is awful

> The Kennel Club should be paying the owners the £50,000 the dog was worth, immediately, without a second thought, then sort out the correct security.

Has it been proved that the poison was administered at Crufts? Was the dog left unattended at the show? So many questions to be answered before blame can be apportioned anywhere - and I personally don't think Crufts itself should take the blame - competitors know that the public have access to the benching areas and should ensure their dogs aren't left unattended.

It is a dreadful incident and beyond comprehension but not sure how the KC can be blamed for it? I don't know how the dogs travelled to the show, where the owners stayed during the show or any details of the return journey - has it been considered that the poison may have been administered at any other place other than Crufts?

My thoughts are with the owners and I hope they are able to ascertain at what point the poison was fed to the dog but fear that may never be able to be truly verified.

At Crufts with the public engaging conversation it is all too easy for someone keeping an eye on a fellow exhibitors dog to be distracted.. It takes just a second to get a dog to take bait.  I can't show at Crufts any more as the dogs are docked, TBH even if I could go it would take an amazing judge to get me there these days. I usually do discover dogs and TBH and seriously thinking my dogs are too precious to put to this risk. We wer very busy all day on Thursday and it would have been really easy to slip on of the dogs something while we were right there ...  Sad but true

> has it been considered that the poison may have been administered at any other place other than Crufts?

I don't think this is being considered because it's not as newsworthy! For me the timing is strange, it seems too long after leaving Crufts for the poison to take effect. Even if it was given to the dog as he walked out the door you'd expect him to be very ill on the long journey home. A typical meal takes 7 - 10 hours to pass through a dogs digestive system, they got home friday night, the dog fell ill and died and an autopsy found cubes of meat. I don't think there would still be cubes of meat in the dogs stomach if they had been fed at Crufts.

Also £50,000! Really I don't think even the BIS winner will be worth this amount of money!

As the poison was a slow one, and the dog still showed I seriously doubt it was a case of 'nobbling' by competition. 

A dog hater maybe?

I do wonder if poison bait could have been picked up by the dog in the NEC grounds coming in, the Hotel grounds, Motorway services (seen some huge rats in the services coming up from Dover).

Brainless I though exactly  that,  there are a number of places it could have been hidden on the walk over.

> Do you think family recognise each other by scent

Yes Barbara I do 100%.  I have a dominant Yorkshire Terrier bitch.  Dominant in as much that she won't lie down and show her throat to another dog.  I don't mean that she is nasty.

I had a phone call from people who had had a pup from this bitch 3 years previously.  They were caravanning in the county and wanted to visit.  When they arrived their bitch ran in.  My bitch ran up to her and laid down showing her tummy.  She had never done this to any dog before.  And she was elated to see her.

The papers are now saying the dogs vet is saying it's unlikely the dog was poisoned at crufts and more likely ate the meat on the walk the owner took it on the night it got home to Belgium. There also was only one type of poison found in the meat not three. But the owner is still adamant it must have been crufts as that was the only time the dog was left alown.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2988942/Dog-poisoned-Crufts-Vet-leading-investigation-says-Irish-setter-Jagger-fell-ill-suddenly-probably-ate-toxins-way-show.html

As they walked him at night I can see how he could quickly pick up some meat with out them noticing. But I don't get how the vet is saying there was one type of pellet in the meat and the owner is saying there was three types.

Beware of believing everything you see in the newspapers.

A couple of years ago, I returned from walking my dogs. One of the boys was noticeably distressed, he was howling and very disoriented. I phoned the vet immediately and took him over. He was kept in overnight. The vet surmised that he had eaten "magic mushrooms". What can I say? I did not see him eating anything. These things happen, although totally  unbelievable. Whoever did this is sick. In my dogs case it was accidental....but...who would leave poisoned meat.

With Fox hunting banned, land owners will sue other methods for vermin control, including poisoned baits.

Foxes are still hunted just not killed by the hounds.

The Kennel Club have issued a statement stating that Jagger had ingested a quick acting poison and couldn't have been poisoned at Crufts. A horrible way to die :-(

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-releases/2015/march/kennel-club-statement-about-jagger%27s-death/

Incredibly sad for the owners what a horrifying loss. But I am, for some reason, glad it did not happen here.

That was my thought too Nova

glad it did not happen here

But how many of the 'gutter-press' papers will have equally big headlines saying that.

Thankfully the news are already reaching the media -I just heard it on the radio and my mother in law just saw it on the TV news -ITV I assume as that seems to be the only channel she watches.

The two main toxins are pesticides, one is more used as an insecticide but both are lethal. If you remember the Bhopal disaster in India years ago, which killed 3,000 people, that was caused by a gas leak in a plant making one of the toxins found in Jagger.... Aldicarb.

If it has been banned in the EU I've not yet found the charter banning it, but of course there's nothing to stop people still using these chemicals if the ban of them is not enforced. Which is sometimes the case in mainland Europe.